Interview:Iwata Asks: Majora's Mask 3D

Iwata Asks: Majora's Mask 3D

Date	February 13, 2015
Interviewee	Eiji Aonuma
Interviewer	Satoru Iwata
Source	[1]

Make it in a Year

Hello everyone, this is Satoru Iwata of Nintendo.

Since we weren't able to reveal any new Iwata Asks interviews at all last year, it's really been a while to be able to share with you a new interview.

Last year I fell ill and had undergone surgery. Many of you were probably wondering if my illness was the reason for us not revealing any new Iwata Asks. But to be honest, I've been thinking about taking a break from it so I could recharge, even before I found out about my condition.

From about the end of last year I started thinking about bringing it back up on the table again, and was wondering what would be the right title to bring it back with. It was at that time when I saw people's strong reactions to our announcement that we're making a remake to The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask. I was surprised by those reactions, but now I knew what that title would be.

I hope we can do a good job in trying to convey even a portion of the secrets of a game that deeply struck so many people's hearts. It has become quite a lengthy interview, but I hope you'll follow through to the very end.

Iwata: At long last, you've finished making the game.

Aonuma: Yeah, it was quite a lengthy process.

Iwata: The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask that was originally released for the Nintendo 64 console was released almost exactly 15 years ago, so I have a feeling Aonuma-san has forgotten some bits and pieces.

Aonuma: Well it's more than bits and pieces. I've forgotten quite a bit! (laughs)

Iwata: First let's start by asking you about the Nintendo 64 version. If I remember correctly, the development for Majora's Mask began when somebody requested that it be made in one year.

Aonuma: You're right. Since we already made The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, we had 3D models that we invested a lot of time in to build. This all started by (Shigeru) Miyamoto-san asking whether we could make a game in one year if we repurpose the models. But we were already talking about trying to make Master Quest for Nintendo 64DD.

Iwata: At the time when Ocarina of Time came out, there was a plan in the works of releasing Master Quest for 64DD.

Aonuma: Correct. We were told to repurpose the dungeons from Ocarina of Time and make a game out of it, and I was handed the baton to make that happen.

Iwata: Uh-hm.

Aonuma: However, when we made Ocarina of Time, we made those dungeons thinking they were the best we could make. That's when Miyamoto-san asked me to remake them, so I hesitantly obliged...but I couldn't really get into it.

Iwata: To Aonuma-san, you just made the ultimate dungeon, so you didn't want to ruin a perfect formula.

Aonuma: Exactly! So I secretly started making new dungeons that weren't in Ocarina of Time, and that was much more fun to me. So, I grew up the courage to ask Miyamoto-san whether I could make a new game, he replied by saying it's ok if I can make it in a year.

Iwata: Didn't Ocarina of Time take three years to make?

Aonuma: It did.

Iwata: I remember those days very well. Ocarina of Time came out on November 21st, 1998. At around that time I was working on finishing up Smash Bros. that was due out in January. I was at the Nintendo Kyoto headquarters for a meeting to prepare for its launch, and I bought Ocarina of Time on my way home.

Aonuma: Thank you so much! (laughs)

Iwata: So I actually feel like we were working very hard around the same time so I remember it very well. Eventually Ocarina of Time came to be considered the pinnacle of 3D games and was praised all over the world, but on the other hand some people were asking why Zelda games only come out once every three years.

Aonuma: Right, the game's release date was delayed several times.

Iwata: Talking about release delays...that made me remember when Miyamoto-san told me about a time when he visited Kanazawa to go to his school that he graduated from while he was working on Ocarina of Time. While he was there he stopped by a convenience store. Then the store clerk noticed Miyamoto-san and actually got mad at him saying "Miyamoto-san! What are you doing here at a time like this"! (laughs)

Aonuma: (laughs) That clerk must have really been waiting for the game to come out!

Iwata: After making stories like that, Ocarina of Time was finally released after multiple delays. With key learnings like how it took too long for it to come out, Miyamoto-san must have wanted the next game to come out much sooner, like in one year.

Aonuma: I think so.

Iwata: So how did you respond when he asked you to make it in a year? Did you say, "Sure, I can do it"?

Aonuma: No, I was holding my head!

Iwata: I'm sure that you were! (laughs)

Aonuma: I rolled and turned thinking what kind of software I should make, and when I met (Yoshiaki) Koizumi-san around that time, I asked for his help. He was working on a plan for a different game at the time, one where you would play in a compact game world over and over again. Coincidentally, Ocarina of Time had a system that controlled the time...

Iwata: The sun rose, and there was nightfall. The concept of time existed in that game.

Aonuma: Right, so Koizumi-san told me that he would help me out if he could use that system of time passing to make a game where you would be playing the same moments in time over and over again.

Iwata: That...sounds like you're bartering within the company! (laughs)

Aonuma: (laughs) From there, the "Three-Day System" was born. It's where you would be playing the same three days over and over again.

Iwata: You needed a completely new idea to make something in such a short turnaround like one year, and that was the "Three-Day System".

Aonuma: Right. But at first, it was one week.

Iwata: Three days was originally one week?

Aonuma: That's right. But when you returned to the first day it was like "Do I have to go through an entire week again...", so we thought three days would be just right.

Iwata: Wait, it got decided just like that? (laughs)

Aonuma: (laughs) In this game the townspeople do different things each day and many different things happen, but when the timespan becomes a week, that's just too much to remember. You can't simply remember who's where doing what on which day.

Iwata: Moreover, you probably wouldn't have been able to make it in a year if you were aiming to make a game filled with so much content for seven days.

Aonuma: Right, we never would have been able to do it. We felt it would be best to make it a three-step process, and we compressed all sorts of things we had planned for over a week into three days.

Iwata: That's how it led to the game feeling like it's packed to the gills with content. You squished all sorts of ideas you were originally planning to use in a week into only three days.

Aonuma: I think so.

From Hospitality to a Challenge

Iwata: By the way, why masks?

Aonuma: The development of Ocarina of Time was so long, we were able to put in a whole lot of different elements into that game. Out of those, there were ideas that weren't fully utilized, and ones that weren't used to their full potential. One of those was the mask salesman.

Iwata: When Link wears the masks, sometimes the reactions of whoever he's talking to change.

Aonuma: That's right. So in Majora's Mask we felt it would be fun if Link himself transforms whenever he puts on those masks.

Iwata: Before that Link was never able to transform.

Aonuma: Right. As a basis of Zelda games, you're able to use items to do all sorts of different things, and we felt it would be a lot of fun if Link would acquire all these abilities by putting on these different masks. We felt that would expand the gameplay. So we made the game so Link could transform into Deku Link to fly in the air, Goron Link to roll across land, and Zora Link so that he could swim underwater. We also gave each of them a storyline.

Iwata: You covered land, sea and air! (laughs)

Aonuma: We did. Once we decided we were going with masks, everything just came into place.

Iwata: Like all the pieces coming together.

Aonuma: That's exactly it.

Iwata: It must have felt great when everything came into place.

Aonuma: Well, we really didn't have time so things had to fall in place! (laughs)

Iwata: That's true! (laughs) But that goes to show how a deadline's important.

Aonuma: I guess so. (laughs wryly) I'm not saying it's a case of "A cornered mouse will bite the cat", but we soldiered on with a mindset that we had to do it.

Iwata: I do know of many situations where things didn't go well because people were on such tight deadlines. But in the case of Majora's Mask, it seem to me that having less time actually benefited its development.

Aonuma: Right.

Iwata: Why did that happen?

Aonuma: Even with Ocarina of Time, we didn't go out making it thinking it would take three years to make. Really. But then, we started to get focused in on the details...

Iwata: That's why the release date moved every time you were asked about it, and Miyamoto-san got yelled at in a convenience store! (laughs)

Aonuma: I guess so! (laughs) At that time we were making Ocarina of Time wanting to be really proud of our work. We wanted to go out with it with our chests up high, harking to the world that this is the 3D Zelda game. We really were making the game with all our hearts into it. Even if it took a long time, we wanted to put in everything we had.

Iwata: As a result of that, you ran into a situation where you made a lot of delicious dishes but had run out of places on the table to put them on.

Aonuma: We did. Because of that, there was a sense of unfulfillment among the staff, where a lot of us wanted to do things differently with certain elements from Ocarina of Time, and also wanting to do things they weren't able to before. If we gathered all new staff to work on it, it would have been impossible to make in only one year.

Iwata: You were fueled by your regrets of what you made but weren't able to fully use to fruition. Because you were fueled by it, you were able to put on a bunch of new ideas on top of the "Three-Days System" and they all fit together nicely. That's why you were able to make something with so much content in only a year.

Aonuma: I suppose so. Also...I was younger back then.

Iwata: It's been 15 years.

Aonuma: At the time when I was told I had to make it in a year, I was extremely focused on thinking how great it would be if we could make it happen, and how disappointed I would be if I couldn't do it. I started working on the game with that kind of mindset, but towards the end of the game's development, we had to work under severe time constraints. That's when Miyamoto-san told me that we could delay the game's release. That's when I...

Iwata: Did you get angry?

Aonuma: I did! I got mad. I said to him, pretty loudly, "There's no way we can do that now!"

Iwata: Oh wow! (laughs)

Aonuma: I also remember telling him "We'll definitely make this in one year!" Looking back at it now, I said something unbelievable to my boss!

Iwata: You really were young! (laughs)

Aonuma: Yeah. Miyamoto-san did tell us to make it in a year but he must have been concerned towards the end.

Iwata: He must have been worried that you were all exhausted.

Aonuma: I suppose. And at that time, I did have a sense that I was being pushed on by something strange.

Iwata: You may have been wearing one of those masks! (laughs)

Aonuma: I had a dream about it.

Iwata: What kind of a dream was it?

Aonuma: It was a dream about being chased by a Deku.

Iwata: Oh, a dream where you were being chased around? (laughs)

Aonuma: I was thinking about an event for the Deku, and have been trying to figure out what to do with it. I thought of it at home, and Dekus appeared in my dream. I woke up screaming! I went to work the next day and that's when (Takumi) Kawagoe-san told me that he finished making a movie for the Dekus, so I had him show it to me....and that movie was exactly like my dream!

Iwata: (laughs)

Aonuma: I even told him "how do you know my dream?" (laughs) That's how put up against the edge I was back then.

Iwata: Perhaps you were possessed by something.

Aonuma: Possibly.

Iwata: By the way, the reaction when we announced The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask 3D was amazing, right?

Aonuma: It sure was.

Iwata: We never worked on a remake for Majora's Mask until now, so we did go in thinking that the reactions would be somewhat positive. But to be honest, the reactions we received were much stronger than we had anticipated. Why do you think that was the case?

Aonuma: I think that's because Majora's Mask is the kind of game that presents players with a challenge.

Iwata: What? It's a challenge to our customers? (laughs)

Aonuma: When we talked about The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time in a previous Iwata Asks, we talked about hospitality.

Iwata: It was about "hospitality on the attack".

Aonuma: But Majora's Mask isn't like that. It's all a challenge to our players. It's like we're saying to them "can you clear this?"

Iwata: It shifted from hospitality to a challenge.

Aonuma: It was something like until then you were welcomed with open arms being invited to come in, and now you're being told at the door to go home if you don't have what it takes! (laughs)

Iwata: That might be true. When I played the game when it came out, it was like the game itself was screaming out to me, questioning me whether I had the dedication to play forward.

Aonuma: That's because we didn't put in any kind of elements where we show people how to play this game. The game was made for those who have played Ocarina of Time, so I felt like there wasn't a need for step-by-step instructions.

Iwata: It was like "clear it if you can".

Aonuma: So those who have played it still strongly remember how the game felt like it was a challenge, even though 15 years had passed. That's probably why it led to such a strong reaction.

Iwata: I see. Well, let's end talking about the Nintendo 64 version, and start talking about this new game.

Aonuma: Sure!

Didn't Want to Open That Lid

Iwata: Thank you so much for your patience everyone. Shall we start with introductions?

Ooiwa: I'm Mikiharu Ooiwa of GREZZO Co., Ltd. I wasn't from the beginning, but I was tasked on the role of director for Majora's Mask 3D.

Iwata: What do you mean by "tasked on"?

Aonuma: I requested that a director role be made mid way during development. For a while I didn't think there was a need for one.

Iwata: Ah, I get it. At first, you thought you didn't need a director since this game had an original to work off of.

Aonuma: There was no director when we made Ocarina of Time 3D. But that wasn't the case at all when we started working on this game! (laughs)

Ooiwa: That's right! (laughs)

Iwata: Aonuma-san, I don't think we need you to introduce yourself at this point. (laughs) So Yamamura-san, take it away.

Yamamura: Hi, I'm Tomohiro Yamamura of the Software Planning & Development Department (SPD). I worked as the liaison on the SPD side. My job was to compile Aonuma-san's wishes on what he wants to do with the game in an easy to understand way, tell that to Ooiwa-san at GREZZO, taking Ooiwa-san's response, review it myself to see if it's ok, then relay that info back to Aonuma-san.

Iwata: You basically worked as the interpreter even though everyone spoke Japanese.

Yamamura: I guess so! (laughs) I really was an interpreter.

Sano: Hi there, I'm Tomomi Sano, also from SPD. Like Yamamura-san, I worked as the Nintendo liaison for this title. Although for me, I joined during the latter half of development so most of the components were already finished. So my role was to review the existing issues with the game that were found by Mario Club, and if there were moments where it seemed like the game was putting on too much of a challenge like what they were saying just a while ago, I went over those areas from a player's perspective and made recommendations on whether we should fix certain issues or leave them as is since they add as a part of the challenging flavor to the game.

Aonuma: You say "from a player's perspective" Sano-san, but that's exactly the case since you actually played the Nintendo 64 version yourself when it was out, as one of our customers. So whenever I wondered what it would feel like from a fan, I always asked Sano-san.

Sano I was originally a fan of the Nintendo 64 version so I played it when it was out, but...I was one of those that lost the challenge! (laughs):

Iwata: You couldn't clear the game?

Sano: Unfortunately, no.

Iwata: Well, so let me ask the group; how did recreating that "challenging" game Majora's Mask get started?

Aonuma: Here again, it came from Miyamoto-san. He told me one day "let's release Majora's Mask for Nintendo 3DS." Sano-san mentioned how she lost the challenge, and I think Miyamoto-san feels quite strongly that there are quite a lot of people like her, who gave up on the Nintendo 64 version part way through the journey. He probably felt that it was such a shame in how we put in so much in the game, but then people aren't able to see them because they weren't able to get there. Of course, we were the ones who challenged the players if they could clear these mysteries in the first place! (laughs)

Iwata: Well, it did turn from hospitality into a challenge! (laughs)

Aonuma: Well, when I was told that by Mr. Miyamoto, all I could say was "you're absolutely right." An added benefit of releasing it for the Nintendo 3DS was that if you get stuck somewhere in the game, you could just close the lid and put it in sleep mode, so it was all the more reason to work on Majora's Mask. However, I couldn't just simply say "yes, I'll do it."

Iwata: Now why is that?

Aonuma: I said this before, but it was one of those games where I was able to do quite a bit because I was much younger.

Iwata: Right.

Aonuma: So I didn't want to open that lid again! (laughs)

Iwata: What do you mean you didn't want to open the lid! (laughs)

Aonuma: I knew that as soon as I opened it I would break out in cold sweat! (laughs)

Everyone: (laughs)

Iwata: So Aonuma-san, you wanted to keep it closed forever?

Aonuma: As in a "please pretend it didn't happen" kind of way! (laughs) Of course we're not allowed to pretend that it didn't happen, but I didn't want to work on another iteration. But I was met by Miyamoto-san's firm "nope".

Iwata: He told you to make it in a year for the Nintendo 64 version, and told you to not run away for the 3DS version. Miyamoto-san's such a strict man! (laughs)

Aonuma: Miyamoto-san also told me to play everything over again and ask myself if everything was all right the way it was. He wanted me to check every aspect of the game, and adjust it to where players today can enjoy it.

Iwata: That's like putting salt on your wounds. (laughs)

Aonuma: It's an old wound from 15 years ago! (laughs) So, I put up enough courage to play everything over again.

Iwata: As you were breaking out in cold sweat? (laughs)

Aonuma: Right! (laughs) But then I found a bunch of things that made me say "what in the world?!"

Iwata: "What in the world?" (laughs) It's not something you typically say to something you created.

Aonuma: Usually Zelda games are made in a way that whenever you get a hunch that there's something on the other side of the curve, that hunch will be enough for you to gather up enough willpower to move forward, even when there's a rough road ahead. But in the case of this Nintendo 64 version of Majora's Mask, when you think there's something ahead and you get there, there's nothing. There are no answers there that you were hoping to find.

Iwata: At that point you'd give up.

Aonuma: Yeah. There even are some things where there are no hints at all. There were quite a few things that no one was able to find.

Iwata: As Miyamoto-san said, it feels like such a waste when no one can find and experience what you spent a lot of effort on putting into the game.

Aonuma: Exactly. So thinking about it now, I must have been possessed at the time thinking what I've done.

Iwata: Sano-san, as one of the players, did you find those things in the game?

Sano: I think there were a lot. Like when you messed up something, you can accept that if it's because your skill wasn't good enough. But with that game there were parts where you didn't know why you couldn't clear certain areas. That made it hard to come to terms when you failed a challenge.

Iwata: "When something didn't work out, it's easy for players to admit that it's their own fault." That's the way games should be, and that should be the development philosophy here at Nintendo.

Aonuma: You're right. But that wasn't always the case with the Nintendo 64 version. It probably won't be a good idea if we had today's player try out the original version. So that's why we decided to make a "what in the world" list.

Iwata: So you decided to make a list of everything that Aonuma-san felt "what in the world?!"

Aonuma: That's right.