Interview:Iwata Asks: Twilight Princess (Part 3): Difference between revisions

{{Interview|2006-11-23

|interviewee = [[Shigeru Miyamoto]] <br> [[Eiji Aonuma]]

{{Interview/A|Iwata|You missed some really interesting stuff! There were lots of different points of view about your "upending of the tea table." (laughs) Some people said that this time nothing like that happened, while others disagreed and said that one by one all the plates and bowls were overturned, and before they knew it everything had been changed! (laughs)}}

{{Interview/A|Iwata:</b> I'm sure they would! (laughs) But I've heard that when this happens, the core staff have realised what's going on and let the newcomers know what to expect. <br><br>

{{Interview/A|Aonuma:</b> Now, I'm not saying this to flatter my staff, but even though they were getting these harsh e-mails, we certainly didn't have anyone on the verge of giving up completely. Everybody worked hard right until the end.<br><br>

{{Interview/A|Miyamoto:</b> They certainly did, and that's what really helped us through.<br><br>

{{Interview/A|Aonuma:</b> That's true. When Miyamoto-san said something harsh, we'd all try our best to respond with something that he wouldn't be able to complain about. We did this right to the end of the project.<br><br>

{{Interview/A|Miyamoto:</b> I know it's not pleasant for people to face criticism. We become light-headed, weak-kneed and often get angry. It's a normal response to rejection. Whether we're able to fend off this attack depends entirely on our training. But I think that young people nowadays have never really had to face this before. They are all very high-achievers here. They're the best of the best, graduating from universities and being able to enter Nintendo, they've never really faced this kind of harsh criticism before. But making products to sell to people is harsh. If we rush out something that's very rough around the edges, the complaints will soon come rolling in. So you could say that the criticism I give helps to prepare people for this, like a kind of warm-up before the main event. Even us older members can feel somewhat confused when we're suddenly told something we don't want to hear, as if our senses have been dulled.<br><br>

{{Interview/A|Iwata:</b> And when that happens, what do you do?<br><br>

{{Interview/A|Miyamoto:</b> It's all about how you fend off the attack. It's like getting rid of stress using Tanden breathing techniques... (laughs) Take three deep breaths, meditate on what you must do... Wow, I'm beginning to sound more and more like an old man! (laughs)<br><br>

{{Interview/A|All:</b> (laughter)<br><br>

{{Interview/A|Miyamoto:</b> I think it's also a kind of training. If you can't enjoy what you're doing, you may as well give up. Anyway, what was it we were talking about again? Let me see, I was.....?<br><br>

{{Interview/A|Iwata:</b> About getting involved in the Zelda project...<br><br>

{{Interview/A|Miyamoto:</b> Getting involved... Yes, it was fun! (laughs)<br><br>

{{Interview/A|Iwata:</b> (laughs)<br><br>

{{Interview/A|Iwata:</b> Ah yes, we were discussing what I did after joining the project. Well, to put it in a nutshell, I felt that for the first time in a long while I was close to the position of the player. From this perspective I focused on putting all the disjointed components back in order. I jotted down the sections which didn't fit the overall story, or elements I thought were completely out of place. One of the aspects I concentrated on was checking things that shattered the sense of reality within the game.<br><br>

{{Interview/A|Aonuma:</b> That's completely true. I could clearly see that he was working with us, while also deliberately assuming the role of the player. (laughs) Even while I admired him, I was thinking how nasty he was being! (laughs)<br><br>

{{Interview/A|Iwata:</b> Is there any particularly memorable guidance Miyamoto-san gave you?<br><br>

{{Interview/A|Aonuma:</b> Let me think. In one of his e-mails, Miyamoto-san wrote: "We're supposed to be creating something for people's entertainment. This part won't do at all." That has really stuck in my mind. He went on to say: "We want people to enjoy the game, but how on earth are they going to enjoy what you've done here?" The fact that we're making something to entertain people is completely obvious when you stop to think about it, but what he said made me realise it afresh. But the more the project deadlines started to close in, the easier it was for the development team to lose sight of that fact.<br><br>

{{Interview/A|Iwata:</b> And so, things that weren't going according to plan began to pile up?<br><br>

{{Interview/A|Aonuma:</b> Exactly. If we just rushed something out without making it absolutely perfect, it would be convenient for us, but this idea of convenience doesn't really concern the customer. Their only concern is how it will entertain them, which I can appreciate. This time in particular, due to the lengthy development time of this project, we haven't always had the time to give this our undivided attention. At these times, Miyamoto-san has taken charge and looked at things purely from the perspective of how to produce high-quality entertainment. In my case, I've often felt that while I know what he's saying, it just wasn't always possible! (laughs) I felt like that a lot of the time, but whatever the situation when something important has to be done, even with strict time constraints, you just have to hold on tight and get the job done. <br><br>

{{Interview/A|Iwata:</b> There are always any number of things in the development area that you know could be improved, but that aren't easy to change right away. The staff have brought this up in previous interviews but when Miyamoto-san suggests a change to something they felt was already too late to change, they would realise that something had to be fixed and would find themselves able to get it done. There's that kind of gratitude towards Miyamoto-san.<br><br>

{{Interview/A|Aonuma:</b> Ah, yes. (laughs) It happened a lot in the past with things that I thought I couldn't be changed, but when I said that Miyamoto-san wants it done, they seemed to get done. (laughs) But it wasn't like that this time, because Miyamoto-san gave us his suggestions in person.<br><br>

{{Interview/A|Miyamoto:</b> I was often asked: "Are you really going to go ahead with this?" and I'd immediately reply with "yes, I really am!" (laughs)<br><br>

{{Interview/A|Aonuma:</b> And for those that didn't quite get it, old hands like us would explain in a rather cryptic way that: "These changes will definitely improve the game, just like they always have in the past!"<br><br>

{{Interview/A|Miyamoto:</b> I think I do explain things clearly though. And I always try to be honest right from the word go.<br><br>

{{Interview/A|Iwata:</b> No, what I mean is that it's one thing to get someone to understand the reasons for something, but it's a totally different thing to get them to understand those reasons well enough to be able to explain them to somebody else.<br><br>

{{Interview/A|Miyamoto:</b> As we were reaching the end of the development cycle, I'd often suggest something and get an answer like "we already tried that and it didn't work". I'd then reply with: "Well, that was then and this is now. So let's try again!" This happened on many occasions.<br><br>

{{Interview/A|Aonuma:</b> Yes, that kind of exchange was quite common.<br><br>

{{Interview/A|Miyamoto:</b> But hey, it's been a long project, initial builds differed quite considerably from the more up-to-date versions.<br><br>

{{Interview/A|Iwata:</b> The thing about Miyamoto-san is that when someone comes to him with a reason why something can't be done, he'll get that person to spit out what would need to be done to get the changes made! (laughs) <br><br>

{{Interview/A|All:</b> (laughter)<br><br>

{{Interview/A|Aonuma:</b> He won't quit till he gets an answer!<br><br>

{{Interview/A|Iwata:</b> People say that you make it so a person can't escape, and then hit them where it really counts!<br><br>

{{Interview/A|Miyamoto:</b> They say that?<br><br>

{{Interview/A|Iwata:</b> They do! (laughs) <br><br>

{{Interview/A|Miyamoto:</b> Ouch...!<br><br>

{{Interview/A|Iwata:</b> But it's not just on this particular project. I've heard many employees make the same kind of comments before! (laughs)<br><br>

{{Interview/A|Aonuma:</b> You like delivering that killer blow, don't you?<br><br>

{{Interview/A|Miyamoto:</b> I suppose I do, yes!<br><br>

{{Interview/A|Iwata:</b> You see, he does! (laughs)<br><br>

{{Interview/A|Aonuma:</b> Well, while we're on the subject, that swordsman who appears towards the beginning of the game and teaches Link how to wield his weapon properly, actually teaches him how to pull off that deadly strike later on. You suggested that he should teach the attack straight away! (laugh)<br><br>

{{Interview/A|Miyamoto:</b> I asked him why is it that my favorite technique isn't there right from the start! (laughs)<br><br>

{{Interview/A|Aonuma:</b> Once he'd made his decision that this attack should be available right at the beginning, I had to relent! (laughs)<br><br>

{{Interview/A|Miyamoto:</b> Well, the game needed it, don't you think? The first thing the swordsman taught you was how to knock someone down with your shield, I mean, who's going to use a boring move like that? (laughs)<br><br>

{{Interview/A|Aonuma:</b> He was saying: "We don't need it! Just finish them off with one mighty thrust!"<br><br>

{{Interview/A|Miyamoto:</b> That's it! One mighty thrust! The scenario had to be altered a lot to accommodate this! (laughs)<br><br>

{{Interview/A|Aonuma:</b> It threw the developers in charge into a real panic. They was saying things like: "Putting this move in the game right from the start means we've got a lot of work to do!"<br><br>

{{Interview/A|Miyamoto:</b> At times like that, I help out with all the things that have to be reworked to minimize the damage, don't I? I work really hard, you know! I suggest that if we change certain things, it will cause less damage.<br><br>

{{Interview/A|Aonuma:</b> That's true. When this man wants to incorporate a change in something, he really does his homework and steels himself for battle! (laughs) <br><br>

{{Interview/A|Miyamoto:</b> I only propose something once I have planned how it would actually be done.<br><br>

{{Interview/A|Aonuma:</b> And once you've come up with your proposal, there's nothing we can say, right? (laughs) We no longer have a choice!<br><br>

{{Interview/A|Iwata:</b> He's got you right where he wants you, ready for the killer blow! (laughs)<br><br>

{{Interview/A|Miyamoto:</b> It's a great job, isn't it<br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> Initially, Zelda: Twilight Princess was being developed solely for the GameCube, but you then adapted it for Wii. I'm sure there were many vexing problems along the way, but could you tell me how you found your way through the various complications?<br><br>

<b>Miyamoto:</b> Well, I felt confident that applying Wii's unique control system to Zelda would heighten the game's charm, and the pointer function makes the use of in-game items in the first-person mode both easier and more intuitive. I told Aonuma-san that for the Wii version we would just have to change the controls without having to change the game's content, but there were some concerns about this.<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> At first, the staff and I were at a total loss as to what to do. We'd been shown a new device, but weren't happy to just brush it off with: "We don't have enough time for that!" (laughs) So we started trying out various ideas. One of which was dropping the 3D stick altogether and instead just using the Wii Remote only for it's pointer function in a similar way to the Nintendo DS stylus.<br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> You mean, you wanted to control Link by using the Remote to point to a certain destination?<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> Right. In the end it didn't really work. But even though we felt that it probably wouldn't suit a Zelda game, it was worth giving it a try. We played around with a lot of ideas for the controls and camera work, including those that we thought may have been a little too revolutionary. Then, when we exhibited the game at this year's E3, we had a version that we felt was just about in a finished state. But there were still things I wasn't completely satisfied with, and I was concerned about what kind of reception it would receive from the crowds there. As I feared, we received some negative feedback.<br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> Oh, really? I was under the impression that the people who were able to try it out at the show weren't that critical.<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> Well, the ones who only played it for a while seemed to enjoy themselves, but the hardcore fans who had gotten used to the GameCube's control method, and those people who were having a quiet word in Miyamoto-san's ear (laughs) seemed to be less than impressed.<br><br>

<b>Miyamoto:</b> I did tell him, with perhaps the hint of a threat, that people thought it was terrible! (laughs)<br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> (Wry smile)<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> Getting this kind of chance to sound out people's reactions before a piece of software is released is actually something I welcome. But personally the thing which most affected me was hearing how smooth the controls on Mario Galaxy were! (laughs)<br><br>

<b>All:</b> (laughter)<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> Well, you know, I did tell myself at the time that Mario Galaxy was developed for Wii from the start, but I knew the customers wouldn't have any sympathy for that kind of excuse. In any case, it was clear that some serious changes had to be made. Actually, it was the time after E3 that gave us the most headaches with the controls for the Wii version.<br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> So, which parts did you begin by changing?<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> Firstly, we tried to take out all the aspects that had a negative reception during the showing at E3. Then from there, we took things back to the drawing board, going back to the original concept: "What are the best things about using the Wii Remote in this version?" We heard a lot of things like: "We want to use the controller like a sword" at E3. Of course we had already done some experiments involving swinging the Remote like a sword and seeing Link's action mimic this on-screen. During these early experiments however, we were faced with the fact that players doing this repeatedly would become tired, and so in the end we chose to remove it. Especially at the beginning, we made the game respond to various movements of the Remote. For example, if you swung the Remote vertically, Link would swing his sword vertically. But we felt this would actually become restricting to the player, and would tire the player out if they kept playing this way.<br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> But the crowds at E3 seemed intent on being able to wield the Remote like a sword. And so you found yourselves in a tough situation.<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> Perhaps the most persuasive point for us was that the players who tried the game at E3 instinctively swung the Wii Remote around like a sword. It wasn't just the sword either, we also noticed that during the fishing sections, players were manipulating the Remote like a fishing rod and reel, even though it was controlled by the buttons. Seeing this, we realised that this must be an intuitive movement. We knew we had to make some kind of adjustments to the game to incorporate this. When people first pick up the Wii Remote, they are expecting the game to respond if they swing it. That's why we knew we had to integrate this functionality into the game. We worried a lot about the actual implementation of these features, but decided to simplify the system so that swinging the Remote did in fact create a sword-swinging motion in the game, but didn't cause people any stress when trying to do so. Luckily, Zelda isn't just about slashing away at enemies from start to finish, and I was glad when we were able to recreate a spinning attack with a simple flick of the wrist, which is a lot easier than trying to do it with button commands. Getting to that stage though was very time-consuming, and full of adjustments.<br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> It certainly seemed that once E3 had ended, there were a lot of issues concerning the Wii control method for Zelda, but that you really knocked it into shape. In retrospect, even though it was a struggle, are you glad you had a playable version of the game in time for E3?<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> In the end, I'm glad we managed it.<br><br>

<b>Miyamoto:</b> I was rather surprised by the reception the game got at E3 as well. I'd expected it to fare a lot better and, in all honesty, I wasn't prepared for the number of people that found it difficult to use the directional pad while gripping the Wii Remote. Since we're all very used to using the Remote and very dexterous when it comes to using all the buttons while holding it, seeing the way first-time players gripped the Remote really tightly was surprising! (laughs) It made me realise that it's not easy for most people to move their fingers, as if to utilise a directional pad, when holding something rod-shaped.<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> One thing we know for certain is that we didn't perfect the control system with a single idea: making the Remote work by swinging it, or by minimizing the need to use the directional pad, for instance. Even once we'd decided to proceed in a certain way, we still conducted countless tests in an attempt to iron out the small imperfections and give the system a complete overhaul. It was Miyamoto-san and I, through plenty of tweaking and endless discussions of: "You mean like this?" "Yes, like that", that got it done.<br><br>

<b>Miyamoto:</b> Yes, and the development process really starts from there. For software in the development cycle, it's relatively easy to assign functions to a certain button, but the problem was how to make the players really feel they have total control over Link's movements. If we didn't go through all the possible control functions thoroughly, and make sure that things were absolutely perfect to prevent minor control errors, we couldn't really say we'd "tested it", could we? We honestly did a huge amount of fine-tuning!<br><br>

Aonumas: We certainly did! <br><br>

<b>Miyamoto:</b> Even though we managed to find our way through that particularly grueling stage, probably the biggest obstacle we had to face on the long journey to completion was at the beginning when the team leaders were under the impression that, even though the game was going to be released on Wii, they didn't think they'd have anything to do with the development of that version.<br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> I see. Back when you first decided to produce it for Wii?<br><br>

<b>Miyamoto:</b> Precisely. The staff only thought they were to be involved in the GameCube version, which would be compatible with Wii. They believed that the Wii version wasn't for them to worry about. So it was only myself, Aonuma-san and the lead programmer who had fully devoted ourselves to doing this version! Once the revelation that "we're making a Wii version of Zelda!" had sunk in, everybody began putting their all into the project.<br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> Ah...<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> And so at the very end, when we entered the debugging phase and I announced to the staff that they were to begin debugging the Wii version. I was worried that everyone would say: "But we did the most fine-tuning on the GameCube version!" But luckily it didn't take long before everyone adapted to the Wii version, and subsequently found it tough going back to the GameCube one! (laughs)<br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> In interviews with the other developers, the general feeling is that they feel confident about both versions.<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> I'm glad to hear it! (laughs) A lot of the staff became really passionate about the GameCube version, but they found that because of the differences in the aspect ratio on the Wii version, the player's field of vision is bigger than on the GameCube version. For that reason, a lot of them felt that the Wii version was easier to play. I think that in the end, everything worked out just fine.<br><br>

<b>Miyamoto:</b> The fact that on the GameCube version left and right are reversed also adds a new enjoyable dimension to the game.<br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> I see. Next, I'd like to talk about graphics. In Twilight Princess, the style of the graphics is more real, but your aim wasn't to make them photo-realistic, was it? Aonuma-san, you originally come from a design background, so I'd like to know how you came to settle on the final style?<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> When I first found out that this Zelda was going to feature more realistic graphics, my initial concern was that we'd just be making a lot of extra work for ourselves. For example, when a realistically proportioned Link jumped in the game, it wasn't a good representation of how someone would jump in real life. If I tried to make it too realistic, the game would suffer as a result. And so, even though there are parts that lacked total realism, I focused on the adjustments needed to make Link move smoothly. This was very difficult, but we didn't have to make it ultra-realistic. To quote Miyamoto-san: "What's happening in the game world should feel true to life." And so our ultimate goal was to ensure that the character's design and movements weren't labored and were at least close to reality, without us expending too much time and energy on it. We didn't have to do this for everything of course, just those certain aspects that required it. Finding those aspects however, was the most challenging part.<br><br>

<b>Miyamoto:</b> In other words, it's like setting the scene for a play rather than recreating the world as it is. If you don't tell people they should be making a stage, they go ahead and try to make an entire world. There is an art to how you properly set a stage and that's what I had to carefully explain.<br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> Is there anything you could tell us specifically?<br><br>

<b>Miyamoto:</b> Well for example, imagine a scene with lots of small stones. On the one hand, you could make it so that the player can move every single one. But if you can successfully communicate the premise that there are also stones that don't move, they will accept this. So, it is far more important to make the stones that can be moved, to move naturally from the player's perspective, rather than making every single stone movable. When and where to do this while constructing the game's world is something that clearly wasn't going well when I stepped into the development of this project, and I found myself having to drill the details into the staff.<br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> Did those problems have anything to do with the sheer size of the project?<br><br>

<b>Miyamoto:</b> Yes, I think they did. These days development is much more fragmented with separate people working on tasks such as graphics, movements and item placement. When creating realistic movement within the game's environment everything is essentially connected; whether it's the way the graphics are drawn, how the program is written or even where the objects are placed, even the designs have an impact on this. And when one aspect is out of place in the game world, it loses its seamless connection to the other parts. When I find one of these problems and attempt to locate the cause, people tend to point the finger at someone else and have me going round in circles! (laughs) And just like I've mentioned before, I'll then get angry: "Who put this stone here?" Somebody must've put it there! When I try to track the culprit down, it always comes back to the director. "The designers and programmers didn't do it, so it must've been the director! Who's in charge here!" This happened quite a lot.<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> But there really are times when a stone is placed somewhere for absolutely no reason whatsoever!<br><br>

<b>Miyamoto:</b> And when I find one of them, I'll always ask: "Why was it put here?"<br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> And the answer is usually: "I just felt like it." (laughs)<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> I know, or "I just thought I'd put it there" is another one. (laughs)<br><br>

<b>Miyamoto:</b> I'd actually be happier if someone said: "It looks good, don't you think?" (laughs)<br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> "I just felt like it" really is the worst possible answer you could get!<br><br>

<b>Miyamoto:</b> I mean, everyone's so busy every day dealing with other problems that I they rarely have time to give the stones a lot of thought. They often just stay exactly where they're put.<br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> I see. Now, let's turn again to the game's graphics. When we see a picture of Link, we don't merely see a CG model, or a comic book character, we see a fully-developed character who feels realistic when he moves and has a really unique sense of balance. I personally felt that this style was unique, but how do you feel Aonuma-san, speaking as the person who realised this style?<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> But it's not just the individual pictures, I believe the amalgamation of everything produces a real power which makes Link unique. There are so many people working on the various designs that there is inevitably a degree of inconsistency. This is where the senior directorial staff, beginning with Takizawa-san, have to step in, and as we were saying just now, decide the points that are essential, focus on retaining them and thereby maintain the game's coherence. But this time round, this was especially challenging due to the sheer amount of these tasks. But thanks to a lot of trial and error they conducted right down to the lighting and the very atmosphere of the game so that you can feel the air around you, the whole world really came together well. And the result of all these elements coming together is that Link now moves exceptionally well. The atmosphere in this game reminds me a lot of Ocarina of Time. That game's atmosphere really was in a class of its own and I'm sure fans of the series will agree. The staff here held that as one of their aims and believe that, by using Ocarina as a basis, they've been able to revive that atmosphere in a new form.<br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> The game certainly does have that feeling about it. What do you think of the new Link, Miyamoto-san?<br><br>

<b>Miyamoto:</b> The new Link is truly wonderful, isn't he? It won't be easy to make something as good as this again. Even by Nintendo standards, this is first-rate.<br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> Wow! (laughs)<br><br>

<b>Miyamoto:</b> No really, I think this is something we should all be proud of. The person in charge, Nishimori-san, may be one of our younger members of staff but he's been working closely with an experienced programmer. Aonuma-san and myself have been discussing things with him since the planning stage and have checked everything exhaustively. We would discuss the best methods of programming right down to the nearest millisecond.<br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> So, Miyamoto-san, you've no more complaints about Link?<br><br>

<b>Miyamoto:</b> None at all. But there's plenty I'd like to say about the movement of the animals! I'd be saying: "You call that an animal?" (laughs) "You call that a horse? Go and see what a horse really looks like!"<br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> Yes, that has come up in the interviews before! (laughs)<br><br>

<b>Miyamoto:</b> Ah, they told you about that? (laughs) But back to Link, I really think that for a player character the quality of his movement is unsurpassed. Even right near the end when I spotted something and said that it would be a shame if it wasn't perfect and that we should fix it, everybody was happy to put the work in and get the job done. I said a bit hesitantly: "At least let's fix this", but the team responded with: "If we're going to fix it, let's fix it properly!"<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> You were hesitant? (laughs)<br><br>

<b>All:</b> (laughter)<br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> Also, this Link not only moves very well, but he also has real charm.<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> Even though he's the player's character, he comes with his own personality, which sounds a bit strange, but I think that his uniqueness probably became apparent right after Miyamoto-san had him throw that goat! (laughs)<br><br>

<b>Miyamoto:</b> This was one time I just had to speak out. With this project I was supervising, and entrusted the planning side of things to other people. But in exchange I said: "Let me throw that goat!" (laughs)<br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> Another act of violence! (laughs)<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> Well, that was one big goat! Up to that point Link looked a bit doll-like, but once he threw the goat we started to think: "Maybe he could do this" or "Maybe he could throw that!" The things Link could do grew and grew...<br><br>

<b>Miyamoto:</b> Throwing the goat, throwing the mid-level boss.<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> Let's try not to give too much away! (laughs)<br><br>

<b>Miyamoto:</b> Oh, yes... (laughs)<br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> Whatever the case, this Link feels very responsive.<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> Yes, and there were plenty of other things I wanted to add! But if I mentioned this you'd probably say: "What? You want even more time!" (laughs)<br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> I probably would! (laughs)<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> But even so, in all honesty there were other things I wanted to do.<br><br>

<b>Miyamoto:</b> I think what we did was enough, but even that didn't satisfy my desire to do more. If only I could change it just a little bit more... (laughs)<br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> I suppose that's what makes it Zelda. <br><br><br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> The image of Wii in the lead-up to its launch has been shaped by the fact that most of the attention is being given to games that can also be easily enjoyed by non-gamers, typified by the Wii Sports package. That's partly due to the fact that Nintendo's primary goal is the expansion of the gamer population. However, that doesn't mean in the least that Nintendo feels the games most enjoyed by our core fans like Zelda aren't important anymore. Quite the contrary - our ambitious plan was to create and launch the ultimate traditional gamer's game at the same time as Wii, a console designed to expand the gamer population. Did the co-existence of these seemingly disparate goals in the company ever make it hard for you to continue with the lengthy development of Zelda, or make you question the value of your work to the company? This is actually a question that I didn't ask the other developers.<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> You didn't? I would've liked to hear their comments. Well, hmm...let's see. This might not be the best way to put it, but at the beginning of development, we started work on Twilight Princess with the intention of helping the GameCube go out in style. Put another way, we wanted to proceed straight ahead within the framework of traditional gaming and make a game that would really blow people away. Our focus was clearly different from that of Wii, which was designed to be easy to play and to be something everyone can enjoy. However, I think the fact that this Zelda can be played on Wii helps build a number of bridges. It will provide a chance for people who bought Wii for the simple and intuitive controls to see how much fun traditional games can be. At the same time, for people who like traditional games and are harboring some doubts about Wii games, or who have already decided that Wii is not for them, Zelda might become a gateway for them to see how much fun Wii is.<br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> I see. <br><br>

<b>Miyamoto:</b> But what about the state of mind of the internal staff members? A few years ago, for example, the Zelda team was considered to be the top development team within Nintendo. Of course the various development teams in the company weren't ranked, but it would be fair to say that the Zelda team represented the whole company. But then the Nintendo DS came along and its simple and fun games were huge hits. We became able to keep putting out great games without investing a lot of people or time in development.<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> Hmm, well yes, that's true.<br><br>

<b>Miyamoto:</b> In the context of this new climate, when Zelda became the biggest project in the company, some people started to say half-jokingly: "We could probably make five other new games if we didn't have Zelda." It would be going too far to say that making this kind of huge game is somehow obsolete, but there are trends even within parts of Nintendo to move away from this approach. During development, wasn't there any sense of melancholy in the team, a feeling that the days of enormous projects like this were numbered?<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> Let me think about it for a moment...... No, I don't think there was anything like that. The feeling in the team was more like: the DS is the DS, Wii is Wii, and more importantly for us, Zelda is Zelda.<br><br>

<b>Miyamoto:</b> So no one was worried about being left behind?<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> Well, I'm sure some people felt that way. We were continuing to do what we've always done in the midst of a change of direction within Nintendo, so I would be lying if I said that no one was worried about being left behind. When we missed our window of opportunity to help the GameCube go out in style and it was decided to also make a Wii version, things got a little chaotic. But despite that, no one ever said anything like: "We shouldn't be spending time on making Zelda anymore." No matter how much trends in the industry were changing, we had absolute and unwavering confidence in what we were making.<br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> I'm sure that you wouldn't have been able to create a Zelda like this if you'd felt that this kind of big project was becoming a thing of the past. So as you said, I don't think people in the development team were concerned by this. Or if they were, it was in the sense that the company's new direction acted to motivate them.<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> Yes, I think it probably helped motivate the team.<br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> I think there is value in the mentality that was brought about by the success of the Nintendo DS, namely that it is possible to create a good product without investing a huge amount of time or resources. On the other hand, making games like Twilight Princess is also important because it gives us a chance to impress players with what we can do when we devote a talented team of people to making a single game over a long period of time. I also think each philosophy benefits from the existence of the other. I think that without either one of them, the resulting lack of variety would be unhealthy.<br><br>

<b>Miyamoto:</b> I think that's true.<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> As do I. Since I've only worked on large, epic games before, I realise that I'll need to start thinking about things from a slightly different point of view from now on. I think that all of the other staff are becoming aware of the need to do this, too. While we don't have any regrets whatsoever about how this Zelda has turned out, the next time we are deciding what kind of game to make, I think the differences between these two philosophies will become a constructive topic for debate. <br><br><br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> Every time I helped with testing in Zelda: Twilight Princess, I find myself taken aback, thinking: "I can't believe you even included this!" And since you've put so much effort into refining the game to that point, in this final interview I think it's only fitting for us to introduce these touches to all the fans who've been patiently waiting for the game's release. Some examples include the changes throughout the four seasons and the weather at the fishing pond, when the water becomes muddy after it rains. Another one is when you drink from one of the jars, the surface of the liquid remains level even when you tilt it. Why has so much time and effort been invested in making these minor details? (laughs) I was really left shaking my head in disbelief when I saw the sheer number of these touches throughout the game. But even though I'm still wondering why would you go to all that trouble, I still really want people to know about these details. I want them to appreciate the lengths you have gone to in order to create such a foolishly detailed world! (laughs)<br><br>

<b>Miyamoto:</b> Well, on this subject, I've often said half-jokingly: "In this game, even the sides of the ladders have patterns on them!" (laughs) But whenever you climb a ladder, the camera moves so it's directly behind you meaning you can't actually see the sides of the ladder!<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> Miyamoto-san, are you implying that there was some bad management in the development team? (laughs)<br><br>

<b>Miyamoto:</b> How much time did you spend on that part? (laughs)<br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> Well, let's forget that particular point for now! (laughs)<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> Agreed! (laughs)<br><br>

<b>Miyamoto:</b> It's a well-known fact that Zelda games always have signposts that can be sliced apart by the player. The village at the beginning of this game is no exception. However in this game, finally, the pieces you cut off can be picked up! <br><br>

<b>All:</b> (roaring laughter)<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> And of course, if you throw them into the river they float<br><br>

<b>All:</b> (laughter)<br><br>

<b>Miyamoto:</b> They really do float. The reason we enabled the player to pick up the pieces and carry them was because there were no signposts right by the river.<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> Exactly! (laughs) If you don't take them and throw them into the river, they're not going to float.<br><br>

<b>Miyamoto:</b> And because we've made it so the pieces float, it'd be a real waste if the player didn't get to see this. That's why we let them pick them up, carry them to the river and throw them in! Setting up this feature took us about the same time as it did to work on one of the horses! (laughs) <br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> A fine example of putting the cart before the horse! (laughs)<br><br>

<b>Miyamoto:</b> It really was! (laughs)<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> We often couldn't be sure which was the horse and which was the cart! (laughs)<br><br>

<b>Miyamoto:</b> There are plenty of these touches in this Zelda for the player to enjoy. And why did this happen, you might ask. Well, in the early stages of development neither the overall direction of the story, nor its finer details had been settled on. For that reason, the development team concentrated on creating things that could be used however the story turned out. The enemies were designed so that they could appear at any location throughout the game and the items were made so they could be used just about anywhere. Normally, when the framework for a game is decided you basically try to put all of the things you have made already into the game, making adjustments to them to ensure the minimum amount of waste. However, this time round with Zelda the trial-and-error process was so long that a large number of things made with great attention to detail remain in the game without having been through that adjustment process.<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> The perfect example are the characters who duck when you swing your sword at them! (laughs)<br><br>

<b>Miyamoto:</b> Ah yes! (laughs) There are some children who duck out of the way when you swing your sword at them!<br><br>

<b>All:</b> (laughs)<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> In previous Zelda adventures, the non-player characters show little or no reaction if you swing at them. We had this feature left over from something made as an experiment quite some time ago, and for some reason we made it so only the children dodge Link's sword.<br><br>

<b>Miyamoto:</b> Well, speaking to those children isn't particularly interesting, but when you swing that sword they all duck! People say things like: "That's the funniest part!" (laughs) Actually, one of them dodges the strike by bending backwards.<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> The shortest one, right?<br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> Well, seeing as this rather silly part of the game doesn't ruin the storyline, it'd be nice if we could show a video clip if at all possible...<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> There are many of these kinds of moments in the early stages of the game. We were making them right from the initial development stages.<br><br>

<b>Miyamoto:</b>  What else was there... Ah yes, we already talked a little about the goat-throwing section, but to continue from that, there are a pre-determined number of goats that appear in the game. When I found out the reason for this, I was quite speechless! (laughs) The way it works is, there's an event where Link has to round up a certain number of goats. The number of goats isn't determined by the event's difficulty, but instead by the number that can fit into the pens in the barn!<br><br>

<b>All:</b> (laughter)<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> The number of places in the barn was set and that dictated the total number of goats we could have...<br><br>

<b>Miyamoto:</b> I spoke to the director about why we couldn't have a larger number, but he told me that it wouldn't be possible because there were only twenty-four spaces in the barn! (laughs) Also, in early versions of the game, Link couldn't even enter the barn.<br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> So, you couldn't even see the number of pens?<br><br>

<b>Miyamoto:</b> Precisely! (laughs) What were you thinking, limiting the number of pens! But in the end, Link became able to enter the barn.<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> And from time to time when the goats escape, you can now go into the barn and check to see how many of the pens are empty. That's the kind of detail the team spent their time implementing! (laughs)<br><br>

<b>Miyamoto:</b> Nobody's going to check anyway! (laughs) There were many points like this throughout the game.<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> That's true. Before we knew it, all these details were already in the game!<br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> Really? (laughs) So many nice touches have been put in the game, I think the most fun thing will be laughing out loud as you find them one by one. Since you're paying for the game anyway, you may as well get the most out of the experience!<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> Of course! (laughs) <br><br>

<b>Miyamoto:</b> For those who play the game, try moving the camera around from time to time and you'll find all kinds of wonderful things hidden away outside the main gameplay area if you take the time to look. (laughs)<br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> We couldn't claim this to be a major selling point for the game though! (laughs)<br><br>

<b>Miyamoto:</b> There is a wealth of detail in the graphics so that when you pull the camera away it looks really impressive. This is in spite of the fact that you can't see these things when just playing through the game normally! (laughs) By changing the camera view occasionally, you'll suddenly catch a glimpse of some truly wonderful views.<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> That's absolutely right. Taking the time to have a look around can really pay off. There really are points that will make you think: "This is a breathtaking world." But that doesn't necessarily make the game good... (laughs)<br><br>

<b>Miyamoto:</b> I think it's a good thing. Even the enemy characters are wearing great-looking armor and equipment decorated with finely detailed textures. Our developers made it this way without considering how much you'd be able to see it when playing the game! (laughs) But they did think that you'd be able to get a better look once the enemies had been knocked down.<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> In this sense, we haven't made any compromises in bringing this world to life, and it's clear to see that the staff haven't cut any corners either.<br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> It certainly gives that impression.<br><br>

<b>Miyamoto:</b> I once had a discussion with Hayao Miyazaki when he was making Porco Rosso and he asked me if I knew the way to make a landscape look authentic from a bird's-eye view. I wasn't sure and when I asked him what it was, he said: "Just keep drawing!" (laughs) It seems it's all about putting your nose to the grindstone and adding more and more detail. With this Zelda there were times when that was just what we did, and it was precisely because we put so much into the graphic detail that the game looks really good when the camera pulls away to take in the surrounding view.<br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> Yes, I'd have to agree with you.<br><br>

<b>Miyamoto:</b> Those aspects might not always be seen when playing the game, but nonetheless I'd like to praise the staff on all the work they put into making those fine details! (laughs)<br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> Everything you see in the game world is fully-formed, not made in the same way as the set of a TV show which, if you view it from a certain angle, hasn't been fully built. Realising a vision like this may have been hugely expensive but you've really come up with a world you rarely see in video games. A lot of time and effort has gone into crafting all the details in this game, so I'd really like the players to thoroughly enjoy this rich gaming experience.<br><br>

<b>Miyamoto:</b> Even things such as the doors have been lovingly put together.<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> It's just another indication of the quality that's found in Zelda games. If we were making a game that only used a fixed camera angle for example, there would be no need to make things that appear on the sides or behind the player as they wouldn't be seen. But that's not the kind of approach we like to use for a Zelda game. We were also keen to make the locations on the landscape interconnect and make them accessible from any direction where possible, that's why we really feel that no corners have been cut. The reason we made such an effort to include as many features as possible is because our aim is to make people feel that the vast land of Hyrule is a true living and breathing environment.<br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> Okay, finally I'd like to ask you both to give a message to the many fans who've been waiting for Zelda: Twilight Princess. Aonuma-san, would you like to start?<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> Well, to put it simply, I just want the fans to really embrace the wonderful world we've created. We worked ourselves to the bone making this and feel we've accomplished our goal and produced a truly great piece of work. I really hope you take the time to play this game as a new type of Zelda experience awaits you.<br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> Miyamoto-san, what would you like to say?<br><br>

<b>Miyamoto:</b> I doubt there are many teams out there that could make something of this caliber. It's completely faithful to the spirit of Zelda, I mean, this game sticks to that clear path that a Zelda game must stick to. I know I can't predict how the world will react to this game, but I think I can safely say that there's nothing else like this available. The staff remained positive, and even when they were exhausted they worked hard right until the last moment putting everything together. Because this game contains so much energy, I'd really like people to pick it up and give it a try. As for my role this time, I feel I've helped more in putting everything together into its final form, rather than assisting with the creative side. Now it's finished, I can look back and feel that it's been a very enjoyable experience. What do you think, Iwata-san?<br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> Firstly, I think the final product really benefited from the decision to extend the development time by an extra year. The sheer scale of this project meant that there wasn't a clear plan from the start, but in spite of this I feel that the Zelda development team achieved their true potential and demonstrated their astonishing ability by bringing all the elements of this game neatly together in one well-rounded package. I haven't had the chance to play the game through in its entirety yet, but I have been able to check all the individual pieces and can confidently say that the wealth of ideas and energy that has been put into this game really shines through. Even with all the resources we have here at Nintendo, we could only make something like this once every few years. In fact, it might not be easy to do something like this again, so I really want everyone to have a wonderful time playing this game.<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> Indeed, and with this version of Zelda, you should really get your money's worth with over a hundred hours of gameplay.<br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> And none of that time feels in the slightest like a chore, which is really an achievement.<br><br>

<b>Miyamoto:</b> When we say it will take a hundred hours, we don't mean you will spend half the time just building up your strength and supplies... Well, perhaps there is the odd time you have to collect rupees, but that's it! (laughs) Even then, we have made it so that the player will have fun coming up with ideas to get those rupees. This is a game you won't tire of!<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> Another thing is that this project has seen a mixture of creators, both old-timers and newcomers alike who've worked together to produce ideas that manage to combine a fresh approach with oddly nostalgic gameplay.<br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> And because of that, I think we've made a game that has a very broad appeal.<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> That's right, and even people of Miyamoto-san's generation will be playing this one! (laughs) Three generations of people will be able to enjoy this gaming experience.<br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> By "three generations", you mean like Touch Generations, right? (laughs)<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> Right. Which is a good thing! (laughs)<br><br>

<b>Miyamoto:</b> I also wanted to mention the sound and programming teams as well as the people who made the videos and demos. They didn't take part in these interviews, but worked just as hard as the rest.<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> That's right. <br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> To tell the truth, I still have lots of questions I wanted to ask the developers in these interviews...<br><br>

<b>Miyamoto:</b> Speaking of which, these discussions are being translated and put on the international Nintendo sites as well, aren't they? I just wanted to add to the many fans of Zelda around the world that members of the foreign localization teams came over and worked with us during the development. And to these teams, I wanted to say that they really are very dedicated to what they do.<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> They certainly did work hard. This is actually the first time a Zelda game is being released simultaneously worldwide too. Various localization teams from around the world came to Japan and worked together with us on making this possible.<br><br>

<b>Miyamoto:</b> They even worked alongside us until late at night.<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> They did. Generally speaking, I heard that most people in other countries tend not to work that late, but these guys sometimes worked until 1am! <br><br>

<b>Miyamoto:</b> I said to one of the European team members: "You're working late!" and they replied: "Yes, because the Japanese staff haven't gone home yet!"<br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> (laughs)<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> There was a good sense of unity among us. When they went to the local convenience store to buy a late-night bento box to eat, we thought: "That's just what we do!" (laughs)<br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> To the localization teams that worked together on this project, you certainly know your Japanese culture!<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> I agree. <br><br>

<b>Miyamoto:</b> Another thing, there are more people translating the game's text into English than there were making the original Japanese! (laughs)<br><br>

Aonumas: There were, weren't there? (laughs) There were people to pick out the intricacies of the original Japanese, others to convert the language into English and then even more people in charge of perfecting it and making it sound natural!<br><br>

<b>Miyamoto:</b> Not forgetting the people who iron out the parts of the story they think are weird! (laughs)<br><br>

<b>All:</b> (laughter)<br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> I'd just like to say thank you to everyone for spending such a long time today answering my questions.<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> Thank you.<br><br>

<b>Miyamoto:</b> Thank you very much.