Eiji Aonuma Interview Part 2: The Wind Waker HD and Choosing Art Styles

Last week we posted

part one of a three part interview with Eiji Aonuma from 4Gamer, a Japanese website. Our translators have been hard at work (thanks, Yosenex!) and we are proud to finally bring you part two, with the third part arriving within a few days. In this part Eiji Aonuma talks more about The Wind Waker HD, Tingle’s origin, and how art styles are chosen for the various games in the series. What are you waiting for?

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4Gamer: Based on what you have said, Wind Waker seems to be a major work in your life.

Eiji Aonuma: Isn’t it? We created it just as my son was born. At that time, I thought that I would like for my son to play this. The lines spoken by the Red Lion King boat that Link rides were written by me. Since I had just become a father, I had him speaking in a self-important manner that children would understand. (laughs).

4Gamer: So at that time, those lines were messages directly from you?

Eiji Aonuma: When you read it again 10 years later, you wonder “What’s this guy trying to say?” (laughs). When I think back to my perceived image of a father figure back then, I’m a little embarrassed. As a result, the dialogue of the Red Lion King became a little more “mild” for the remake. When my son first played it, he felt that he was “too preachy.”

4Gamer: I can’t believe those are the memories you have of those lines. (laughs).

Eiji Aonuma: Also I love the worlds drawn by Miyazaki, Hayao, they excite me in the way that memories of the film “Animal Treasure Island” do. Those images really bring me back to life. Bearing that in mind, Wind Waker captures the essence of an exciting adventure.

4Gamer: Ah, I think I get it.

Eiji Aonuma: In other words, Wind Waker is not your typical Zelda game, it is a story set in the sea. Incidentally even Link feels the same way, that’s because it has a different taste from the rest of the series.

4Gamer: Is Princess Zelda’s form the result of that?

Eiji Aonuma: I believe so. From the beginning, the story has always always been about rescuing Zelda numerous times. So I wanted to have a different spin this time where you rescue your sister in the beginning which overlaps the feeling of rescuing Zelda in the end. At that time, whenever I would present any story to Shigeru Miyamoto, I would do so with my head down. (laughs)

4Gamer: What? Really? (laughs)

Eiji Aonuma: From the get go, whenever I spoke to Miyamoto, “Is that Zelda?” is the kind of response from him I was aiming for. As a result, the art, story, and characters became completely different. Additionally, many people who played it at that time were saying “It’s completely different from what I expected.”

4Gamer: When the “cat-eyed” Link was initially revealed, it was met with a negative response. But when you actually play it, it does feel like a Zelda game.

Eiji Aonuma: But now the reaction has changed.

4Gamer: In other words?

Eiji Aonuma: At that time, the titles prior to Wind Waker were Ocarina of Time (Toki no Okarina) and Majora’s Mask (Mujura no Kamen). These set the expectations for the 3D games. However, Wind Waker redefined the series and every game since Wind Waker has been doing the same. Everyone is probably used to that idea by now.

4Gamer: Behind the scenes, “cat-eyed” Link found a home on handhelds.

Eiji Aonuma: Yes, with Phantom Hourglass (Mugen no Sunadokei) and Spirit Tracks (Daichi no Kiteki), you had more female players experience them. These are based on the original “cat-eyed” Link from Wind Waker, which makes me feel accomplished.

4Gamer: When it comes to graphics, how has your purpose changed?

Eiji Aonuma: On portable devices, the screen is so small that it’s easy for people to simply accept the use of “Cat-eyed Link.” Meanwhile for consoles, it’s about what people want to play at the time. For Twilight Princess, there were many people who didn’t care for Wind Waker‘s graphics, so we decided to go with an adult Link once again.

4Gamer: But it wasn’t like let’s do this from now on.

Eiji Aonuma: Each time everyone wonders what kind of Zelda it will be. We make some adjustments based on that. Meanwhile we try to find what is suitable for playing, which leads us to the correct answer. It’s the concept of the “Character matching the function.”

4Gamer: When I look at the “Cat-eyed Link”, even though he does not have any lines of dialogue, his expressions are that of a talkative person. On the other hand, with Skyward Sword Link, I recall him as the strong, silent type.

Eiji Aonuma: Those are the difficult parts to do and lead to such results. With Wind Waker Link you have rich expressions, his big eyes give the impression that he is looking at something that even the player is not aware of. Bearing that in mind, there are things that Link does outside of the will of the player, bringing out a sense of reality, not too different from “complete immersion.”

4Gamer: I understand.

Eiji Aonuma: In other words, in the case of Wind Waker, the player is in a sense guiding Link and playing, resulting in an interesting result in this fantasy world. As a result, Link’s facial expressions were created. On the other hand, it’s different in a more realistic setting, you want the hero to be fully immersed in the world. For example in Skyward Sword, since you actually had to control Link’s sword yourself, it was necessary to make the world immersive. The relationships between Link and the Player varies from game to game.

4Gamer: Considering that, in a previous conversation I recall discussing and agreeing that Wind Waker is an adventure with a taste of anime.

Eiji Aonuma: That is true. Even though it’s just art, the character on the screen is a projection of yourself. As you journey with the character for a little while you have a sense wanting to look after him, which I feel is interesting. But that wasn’t the plan from the get-go. As we were making the game, it gradually became that way. We decided that we wanted Link’s eyes to move as a special effect. After consulting with the programmers, we were able produce this effect well.

4Gamer: So, it wasn’t decided from the get-go right?

Eiji Aonuma: Right. When it comes to the game, you don’t really follow your plans all the way to the end. Instead it’s necessary to get a sense of what the characters are interacting with in the world. Wind Waker manages to do so.

4Gamer: Bearing that in mind, when the original went on sale, regarding the latter portion of the game, it was said that portions had to be removed. Has that been adjusted for this release?

Eiji Aonuma: In the end, that would have made the approach and process time a little too long. Recently I have been telling my staff that I will become a monster to my staff while we are making a game. I find that it’s more difficult to understand whether or not a person is satisfied with a game than the process involved. The process of checking everything during our process is long and arduous. I suppose that potential players feel the same way, but you aren’t really aware of it while you are making the game.

4Gamer: I’ve heard the same tale from others in the past. The process of making a game becomes more and more difficult as you move along.

Eiji Aonuma: In order to please the players, you have to ask your self “does this work?”. If you produce the desired response you will be able to keep a good rhythm going. However, it does become tiring to change things over and over. In terms of the latter half of Wind Waker, I want to apologize for that. The reaction to that was met with a negative response and I felt that it was a bit disjointed, so for the HD version we decided to change it to something a little smoother.

4Gamer: So basically, how is it now?

Eiji Aonuma: Now you can look at the treasure map as you approach treasure chests. Before it was difficult to keep checking the map while seeking the treasure. Things like this make it easier to find the items and shorten the quest a little for the HD version.

4Gamer: Traveling by sea on the boat has been sped up as well right?

Eiji Aonuma: This too is an example of how we have shortened the process. It’s faster, even if you decide to not control the winds. You can also more easily rely on the map to get you to where you would like to go. Salvaging treasure is also a little easier. The Wii U GamePad acts as a car navigation system, when you hit a salvage point, you will feel happy you did so.

4Gamer: This time, the Wii U GamePad is a bit more sophisticated for controlling. So you probably didn’t have to suffer to much when designing the controls.

Eiji Aonuma: For the Wii U GamePad controls I only had one designer. The relationship between the Wii U GamePad and TV had to be created from scratch. Deciding how it would be operated was an entirely new plan, where the director had the most power. Even though we were doing a remake, it would be a waste to not use the GamePad properly. I feel that we managed to successfully make using the controller convenient for everyone. Also, you can play with just the Wii U GamePad, so you don’t have to always be attached to the TV. You can even play while laying down (laughs).

4Gamer: So for Wind Waker, the Wii Remote + Nunchuk control scheme found in Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword was not considered?

Eiji Aonuma: Using the Gyro-scope to slice with the sword in Skyward Sword had a purpose and created immersion, for a younger Link though I don’t believe it would work the same way. Also on the Wii U GamePad, one can more pay attention to the map a little more easily for ocean travel, which has always been one of the central themes.

4Gamer: It’s certain that even with young Link you were able to do many actions on the GameCube controller than expected.

Eiji Aonuma: That is true right? I feel that if you were to replace the button controls with the gyroscope the finishing moves wouldn’t come out properly. We decided that Link’s finishing moves shouldn’t be too complex to operate, so we left that part the same in Wind Waker.

4Gamer: When it comes to controls, operating the camera and winds has become a lot more simpler.

Eiji Aonuma: If you turn the camera down to much it becomes more difficult to control. The original had more suppressed movements as a result. Lately, games that allow you to control the camera with a stick have been increasingly leading me to think “It would be great if you would control it some more.” So we decided to fine tune the camera motions from recent games for this game. Also some people feel that using the Gyroscope is best. Recently, I feel weird when I can’t use the gyroscope. (laughs).

4Gamer: On a test run. I had used the right stick. Is it better to use the Gyroscope instead?

Eiji Aonuma: I think it’s easy to use once you get used to it. When switching the camera angle the Wii U GamePad feels more natural and gives a better response. In Zelda, in terms of aiming, swinging the sword requires you to be parallel to the object. I can envision that gyroscope operations will be a crucial part of Zelda games from here on.

4Gamer: This time there is a new feature compatible with the Miiverse known as Tingle Bottle. What role does that play?

Eiji Aonuma: During the game you can write messages, take pictures, and send them out in a bottle. After that they are uploaded to Miiverse where other players can see them with the latest news appearing randomly. Also, it makes a note of where you were you when you wrote the message, so you can even see a little bit of information on areas you have yet to access. You can only reply according to the game. You can’t write comments on them, but if you would like to you can still you the standard Miiverse interface to interact with others.

4Gamer: So the contents of the bottles you have sent out can be viewed throughout the game and on Miiverse.

Eiji Aonuma: Exactly. When you see a message on the Miiverse from someone who has yet to play Wind Waker, it gives you a feeling of synergy with others, which really makes us all feel good. As a developer I look forward to seeing everyone use the Tingle Bottle and the Miiverse. This is because there are many unexpected possibilities coming forth. I think I will also send out some bottles myself. I also participate in the Legend of Zelda series community from time to time. Since it’s available in all regions it’s possible to post content to share world wide. I intend on continuing to do that.

4Gamer: In order to use the Tingle Bottle feature you need to have encountered Tingle in an event sequence.

Eiji Aonuma: That’s right. Tingle is one of the those characters you either love or hate. You do have reason to be thankful for him due to the map deciphering and the Tingle Bottle, but meeting him proves to be valuable.

4Gamer: So do you like Tingle?

Eiji Aonuma: I don’t hate him (laughs). The Zelda series has many assertive characters as well as some difficult ones.

4Gamer: Tingle really fits the art style of Wind Waker.

Eiji Aonuma: That is even the case in the manga. In Twilight Princess there is a character like Tingle. I wonder what everyone thought about him? (laughs).

4Gamer: He had his ups and downs. Speaking of which, who is Tingle based on?

Eiji Aonuma: Basically, there is no model for him, but I have heard that our designer once had a friend named Tingle long ago. (laughs).

4Gamer: What an expected origin story (laughs). There is another new feature, the hard difficulty known as Spicy Taste (Spicy mouth mode), in which small hearts do not appear throughout the game. What that intended for (hardcore?)gamers overseas?

Eiji Aonuma: Yes. I don’t understand why it has became Hero Mode overseas. (laughs). I don’t usually care for having different difficulty settings, but since this is a remake I wanted to give something extra to everyone who had the experience of playing the original.

4Gamer: Is there something different for completing it?

Eiji Aonuma: No, that is not that case. That mode is simply for people who have confidence in their abilities. When I tried it, I couldn’t even defeat the first boss. “There aren’t many hearts, is this some sort of bug?” is what I thought.

4Gamer: That would probably discourage some players as they play.

Eiji Aonuma: If that happens… when you are selecting your save file you can change the difficulty, so you don’t have to worry.