Interview:Iwata Asks: Spirit Tracks: Difference between revisions

{{IncInterview}}

 

{{Interview|2009-12-03

|interviewee = [[Eiji Aonuma]] <br> [[Daiki Iwamoto]]

|description = A 6-part series focusing on the Legend of Zelda: Spirit Tracks. Nintendo President Satoru Iwata sits down with Eiji Aonuma and Daiki Iwamoto of the development team.

|source = [http://iwataasks.nintendo.com/interviews/#/ds/zelda/0/0] [http://www.nintendo.co.uk/NOE/en_GB/news/iwata/iwata_asks_-_the_legend_of_zelda_spirit_tracks_15156_15157.html]

==The Previous Game Felt As Though We’d Given Our All==

{{Interview/A|Aonuma|I'm Aonuma, from Entertainment Analysis & Development. I produced this game, The Legend of Zelda: Spirit Tracks, and I also produced the previous game, The Legend of Zelda: Phantom Hourglass.}}

{{Interview/A|Aonuma|When I work on the Wii edition, I'm right on-site, and I often do my job from a director's perspective. On the Nintendo DS version, I do proper producer's work. ...That said, when I worked on the previous game, The Legend of Zelda:Phantom Hourglass, I was simultaneously making Twilight Princess, so I couldn't keep a very close eye on things right from the beginning. Then, when The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess was finished and I went to the Nintendo DS version's office, the development was already pretty far along. From my point of view, it was at a stage where I could really make myself useful.}}

{{Interview/A|Aonuma|Well, there are some definite similarities between that sequence of events and the way The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask came from The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time.}}

{{Interview/A|Aonuma|All right. Our first 3D The Legend of Zelda game for the N64 turned out to be The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time. I did some direction on that one, although it was only partial: I was in charge of dungeon design.}}

{{Interview/A|Aonuma|That's right. It made us very, very happy (laughs). Even after its release, I felt that we'd really done something special; I felt very fulfilled. At the time, I think (Shigeru) Miyamoto-san had that same feeling, but apparently he also felt as though there was still quite a lot left to do.}}

{{Interview/A|Aonuma|No, we didn't just start making The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask, not right away. There was actually a flip-side, and in the beginning, the idea was to make a "Ura (Flip-Side) Zelda".}}

{{Interview/A|Iwata|That "Ura Zelda" (The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time: Master Quest) was developed for the 64DD. Ultimately, we recorded it on a limited edition disc that went to people who reserved The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker.}}

{{Interview/A|Aonuma|And we were supposed to make its sequel in a year... At first, we had absolutely no idea what sort of thing we were supposed to make, and we just kept expanding our plans... At that point, the "Three-Day System", the idea of a compact world to be played over and over again, came down from Miyamoto-san and one other director, (Yoshiaki) Koizumi-san. We added that to the mix, and then, finally, we saw the full substance of a The Legend of Zelda game we could make in one year.}}

{{Interview/A|Iwamoto|Right. We thought, "What if we go at this using a different approach from the previous game?" And what we came up with was the use of Phantom.}}

{{Interview/A|Iwamoto|Yes. In the last game, there was a type of play where you could switch to playing as a Goron; we decided to build things around controlling the Phantom at a relatively early stage. We'd been trying to think of a method for intuitively and easily controlling a subplayer for a while at that point.}}

{{Interview/A|Aonuma|Then, among the characters who appear this time, we really focus on Princess Zelda.}}

{{Interview/A|Aonuma|Yes, but she doesn't in this one. Back when I heard the story's rough outline, I asked, "What? Why isn't Tetra making an appearance?" And he said, "Well... I don't like Tetra all that much."}}

{{Interview/A|Iwata|...About the train.}}

{{Interview/A|Iwata|Did it feel as though a small tea table had been upended?}}

{{Interview/A|Aonuma|In this world, the tracks were there to begin with, but for some reason they've been erased. The player has to put them back to the way they were.}}

{{Interview/A|Iwata|I see. You can try backing up first, then switching to another track, and going on again once the enemy train's passed you.}}

{{Interview/A|Iwamoto|Players can use a pan flute this time.}}

<b>Iwamoto:</b> Finally, we asked for suggestions from the staff and wrote them all on a white board, and from those suggestions, we narrowed it down to "Train Whistle of the Wide World".<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> What finally decided it was the sound. When I said, "Train Whistle of the Wide World", it just rolled off the tongue.<br><br>

<b>Iwamoto:</b> And it was easy.<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> Then, after we'd decided on "Train Whistle of the Wide World" amongst ourselves, we sent an e-mail to Miyamoto-san, asking him what he thought of it. And he just answered, "I think it's good".<br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> "I think it's good" is a pretty short answer. What did you think when you got that back?<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> It really did feel like he was brushing us off. So we asked him again, "Are you sure you're taking this seriously?", and he said, "Of course I am. My first impression was that it was good, so I said 'I think it's good'!" (laughs).<br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> And if something's bad, he does say it's bad (laughs).<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> Absolutely. When something's bad, he really lets you know about it (laughs).<br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> When something's no good, there are always lots of reasons why it's no good, but when it is good, you don't really need reasons, you know. Still, not having him say anything must have made you a bit nervous.<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> It did that (laughs). Miyamoto-san was probably busy with the New Super Mario Bros. Wii.<br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> And you think he might have been distracted? (laughs)<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> But anyway, that's how we decided on "Train Whistle of the Wide World", and we took to it very quickly. It never felt strange to us.<br><br>

<b>Iwamoto:</b> We got used to it, yes. And that's not all; the pan flute is called "Whistle of the Wide World", too (Spirit Flute in the US version.)<br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> I see. "Whistle of the Wide World".<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> Not only that, the areas where action takes place are all called "Wide World of the Something", too, so the place where the ocean is is called "Wide World of the Ocean".<br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> "Wide World of the Ocean"...?<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> "Wide World", even though it's ocean (laughs).<br><br>

<b>Iwamoto:</b> They told us that "Wide World of the Ocean" was weird, no matter how you look at it, but we wanted all the names to match.<br><br>

(Editor's note: In the North American version the Wide Worlds are called 'Realms' as in 'Ocean Realm')<br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> By the way, about the "Whistle of the Wide World" pan flute... Why is it that every The Legend of Zelda game has some sort of sound item in it? I've wondered about it for years. Is it because the sound staff is in on making the puzzles, too?<br><br>

<b>Iwamoto:</b> There isn't a sound item in every game. There wasn't one in the last one.<br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> Oh, that's right. There was one in The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina and in The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker, but I suppose there isn't always something.<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> As you'd expect, when the sound team takes a firm line and tells us, "We want to try doing this this time", we often do use that as our jumping-off point. So I think that they do feel as though, since it's The Legend of Zelda", we should use some sort of sound item. In this case, the pan flute was brought up fairly early in the game. Then, too, the mike input capabilities are featured pretty prominently in this game, so the two concepts meshed together neatly.<br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> There are a lot of places that use the mic, aren't there.<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> Yes. But if we worked the players too hard, they'd run out of breath.<br><br>

<b>Iwamoto:</b> Right, please blow gently. (laughs)<br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> You don't need to blow hard at all, do you.<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> No. Then, the sound team worked very hard this time, and there are all sorts of whistle sounds for them to enjoy.<br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> What do you mean, all sorts of whistle sounds?<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> This game also supports tag mode, too. It's made so that you can collect parts for the train.<br><br>

<b>Iwamoto:</b> In the previous game, we had players collect parts for the ship. You'd wind up with parts you didn't need, and you could exchange those for parts that you hadn't managed to get.<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> It's a little different this time, though. There are "treasures", and you can collect many different types. Once you've accumulated a set number of a certain sort of treasure, you can exchange those for your train part. Not only that, the things you collect vary from player to player.<br><br>

<b>Iwamoto:</b> The treasures show up randomly. It's different for every person.<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> They'll collect most of the things which it's easy for them to collect, but...<br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> By using the tag mode of Nintendo DS, or "passing transmissions", they can collect more effectively.<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> That's it. This train is split into four sections: the train itself, the gun battery, and then the passenger cars and freight cars. You can customize all of them. There are all sorts of different variations to play around with, and one of them is pretty incredible.<br><br>

<b>Iwamoto:</b> Yeah, that one really is something else. (laughs)<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> It's really startling. You can customize it into something which makes you think "...This is a train!? No way..." (laughs)<br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> And so, the sound of the whistle changes too. (laughs)<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> Yes it does. The normal train whistle is the usual, low-pitched one, but they'll get to hear some very interesting whistles, too.<br><br>

<b>Iwamoto:</b> ...Some of which will make them think, "This is a whistle? No way..." (laughs)<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> Well, you can't really call it a train any more, so it doesn't matter if it doesn't sound like a whistle. (laughs) Anyway, that's how much fun you can have with it, so we definitely want them to use tag mode. <br><br><br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> By the way, in The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess interview on the "Iwata Asks - Wii Project", the words "essence of The Legend of Zelda" came up quite a lot. How much did the Nintendo DS The Legend of Zelda team talk about The Legend of Zelda theory?<br><br>

<b>Iwamoto:</b> Well, frankly, not much.<br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> But this is very The Legend of Zelda-like. It has that feel to it. Why do you suppose it is that a team can talk about that a lot when they make it, or not talk about it much at all when they make it, and both products turn out to be The Legend of Zelda-like?<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> It is odd, isn't it.<br><br>

<b>Iwamoto:</b> But I did think that I didn't want to get too caught up in making it "The Legend of Zelda-like". There was even an argument about how a train didn't really seem to fit with "The Legend of Zelda".<br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> Ah, yes, I did hear a little about that. You mean that debate, the one about whether or not it was really all right to have a train in The Legend of Zelda.<br><br>

<b>Iwamoto:</b> Then people were wondering whether we shouldn't change the train to something else. Still, we talked to the designer, and to all sorts of people, and we ultimately decided to stick with the train. In the first place, everybody has their own idea of what The Legend of Zelda is supposed to be like.<br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> Iwamoto-san, if you absolutely had to say what The Legend of Zelda is like, what would you say?<br><br>

<b>Iwamoto:</b> I wonder...<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> That's a hard one.<br><br>

<b>Iwamoto:</b> It really is.<br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> Well, I suppose if one could put it into words that easily, there'd be no need for everyone to argue on and on about what's "The Legend of Zelda-like" and what isn't.<br><br>

<b>Iwamoto:</b> True. Besides, there are some things we've managed to avoid, in a good way, that we might not be able to avoid any more if we normalized it too much.<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> Is it all right if the Producer takes a stab at it, then? (laughs)<br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> Of course. Mr. Producer, take the floor. (laughs)<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> Although this isn't an original comment...<br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> Not original? Well, at least you're honest (laughs).<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> Ten years or so ago, the "Hobo Nikkan Itoi Shinbun (Almost Daily Itoi Newspaper)" ran an interview with Miyamoto-san, after he'd made "Ocarina of Time". In that interview, there was a bit that made me think, "Oh, so that's what it was".<br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> And you didn't know about the article back when it first came out?<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> I'd probably read it, but at the time I just thought, "Huh..." (laughs) It's probably because I wasn't directly involved. I read it just after finishing the The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time job, and at the time, I had no idea I'd keep making The Legend of Zelda. Only, I was asked in an interview about the period when I was working on The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time; it had been a while, and I'd forgotten quite a bit, so I reread the article as a sort of review. And then, among the things Miyamoto-san had said, there was something that really made an impression on me.<br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> What was that? <br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> He said, "I want people to see that there are no games that compare to this one" (interview in Japanese). The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time was a game where we did things that others would never think to try. <br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> That's true. Hearing that they tried to make The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time a game with such an overwhelming presence that no other game could compare, and that they gave it their very best, is incredibly convincing.<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> That's why we made it so detailed. If we didn't do that much, I thought, the end product wouldn't be really overwhelming, something other people wouldn't do. This already came up earlier, but even with the railroad, we experimented with a lot of things at first. Honestly, if somebody had said, at the beginning, "That's just a pain; let's not bother with it", I wouldn't have been surprised. But doing things simply because you don't know whether or not they'll work until you try them... I think that in itself is...<br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> "A thoroughness that others don't even think to attempt", you mean.<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> Yes, that's it. This time, we were trying for a game that used trains in a way no other game had used them before. So, as Iwamoto-san said before, we had some people asking "A train in The Legend of Zelda? Are you sure?" But, as far as I'm concerned, trains are just fine. I felt as though, if the train became something that couldn't be portrayed by anything else, then that would be The Legend of Zelda.<br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> I see.<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> By the way, Iwata-san, what do you think The Legend of Zelda is?<br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> Well, to me... When I'm playing, and I think "Is it even possible to solve this puzzle?", and it's really giving me trouble, but then something gives me a brainstorm and I solve it, and "that The Legend of Zelda sound" plays... (laughs) When I hear that "You’ve solved the puzzle" sound, even though I had to work so hard on it, it makes me want to work on the next one right away. To me, that's the essence of The Legend of Zelda.<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> I think it's the same for us, too.<br><br>

<b>Iwamoto:</b> Yes, it is.<br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> I see. (laughs) When you're developing it, and you're working so hard on it, and worrying over it, and you finally find the perfect way to do something, you hear that sound in your head.<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> Oh, we do. (laughs)<br><br>

<b>Iwamoto:</b> It does. (laughs)<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> When things are really tough, and we come up with an answer right at the last minute, and we decide, "Hey, this is pretty good!", then we all...<br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> ...hear that sound in our heads. (laughs)<br><br>

<b>All:</b> (laugh)<br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> You know, that "The Legend of Zelda sound" might have left its mark in gaming history.<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> It sticks in your head.<br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> It really does.<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> We're actually changing it, little by little, but we can't change it too much. If we changed it drastically, it would turn into something completely different, so...<br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> No, you absolutely mustn't change that. (laughs) Not that sound, and not the one that plays when you've opened a treasure chest and gotten something good.<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> You're right, we really can't change those. They're like a venerable restaurant's secret sauce (laugh). ...And we've inherited them.<br><br>

<b>Iwamoto:</b> We're all careful to protect traditions like those. Nobody's ever suggested trying to change them. I think everybody understands that those are The Legend of Zelda.<br><br>

<b>Iwata:</b> You know, though, it's funny that the action of making The Legend of Zelda itself is a lot like solving the puzzles in The Legend of Zelda.<br><br>

<b>Aonuma:</b> I thought it was pretty good, if I do say so myself. (laughs)<br><br>

 

 

{{Interview/A|Iwata|At EAD, there are lots of planners who came from Design - such as Miyamoto-san, Tezuka-san, and you, Aonuma-san - and relatively few people from Programming, aren't there. Do you think the puzzles are different from the usual ones precisely because someone from Programming thought them up?}}

{{Interview/A|Iwamoto|Basically, it's a game where everybody tries to get the Force to win, but with this particular concept, as with "Mario Kart", they can get all hyper and excited as a group. So we put in lot of things where you can make a comeback with one shot, or get an item and turn the tables completely.}}