General Zelda What's Up with the Linearity Hate?

[DarkestLink]

What do you do with problems? You solve them, duh. I have gone through High School with no help at all, I've gotten a job and had no direction,

You had no teachers to guide you through High School or education to get you a job?

 

[Vaati101]

What do you do with problems? You solve them. I have gone through High School with no help at all, I've gotten a job and had no direction, and most recently I'm trying to apply to colleges but sites are down and not helping me whatsoever.

You are seriously comparing real life to a video game? In real life you have no choice but to go to school and get a job unless you want to fail as a human being. This has much much more impact in life than failing to complete a video game that gives you no hints. In a video game if you can't figure it out, it's not the end of the world, but if you can't figure it out in real life then you will suffer alot of consequences. Basically what I'm saying is in video games you have a choice, in real life you don't.

When you're placed in the middle of nowhere, the very first thing you do is either a) ask for information or b) find information yourself.

Except this is not available in the Legend of Zelda, A problem that Nintendo fixed in earlier games.

 

[Ventus]

You are seriously comparing real life to a video game? In real life you have no choice but to go to school and get a job unless you want to fail as a human being. This has much much more impact in life than failing to complete a video game that gives you no hints. In a video game if you can't figure it out, it's not the end of the world, but if you can't figure it out in real life then you will suffer alot of consequences.

Qoodness Qracious. We're not talking about the gravitas of the situation. We're talking about similar setups. In either case, real life or video games, you have to do certain things or you won't "pass". That's my point here - that being plopped in the middle of nowhere isn't the end of the world, that you CAN complete things with a little bit of willpower.

Except this is not available in the Legend of Zelda, A problem that Nintendo fixed in earlier games.

You have the map, and pen and paper. OptionB is available, trust me.

No matter what, we've come upon superior hardware so you can rest assured that you will NOT be plopped in the middle of nowhere, with areas completely devoid of help. You WILL be getting tutorials - that's the nature of modern gaming - so you will NOT have to figure things out. ^^

 

[Vaati101]

No matter what, we've come upon superior hardware so you can rest assured that you will NOT be plopped in the middle of nowhere, with areas completely devoid of help. You WILL be getting tutorials - that's the nature of modern gaming - so you will NOT have to figure things out. ^^

And that's what was so wrong with the Legend of Zelda and this is what A Link to the Past rectified. With all this hate of linearity, I'm under the impression that people want to go back to the frustrating days of the Legend of Zelda. I wouldn't welcome that and I'm sure Nintendo won't be mad enough to alienate fans by giving us another completely non-linear Zelda game.

 

[Salem]

I can't take this as an argument. That's like claiming the U.S. should legalize slavery again because when it was founded, slavery was legal.

except that people have been asking for going back to non-linear gameplay in Zelda, no one is asking to go back to slavery(except for you know who).

I've never felt like I had choice and freedom in any Zelda title. I have no choice. I do these dungeons and I fight this boss. End of story. Doing in a different order doesn't make me feel any more free. It just makes it feel disorganized.

Alttp wasn't disorganised even though there was flexibility in dungeon choice.

The problem is you end up putting so much effort, work, and money into nothing, leaving the rest of the game to suffer as well as delaying it.

No, enforcing a linear order takes more effort, because you want every dungeon item to be useful for every future item, Nintendo clearly didn't want to make every item useful for every dungeon do why even bother with a strict order?

Making an entire dungeon's puzzles based off one item is very restrictive...having to incorporate riddles into each and every one of them is even more restrictive.

That's how the second half WW and TP are structured.

In the end, there's a huge difference between "Complete the obstacles" and "Complete these obstacles". You have a choice in Mario. In Zelda, choice is irrelevant. Just complete the dungeons.

It was relevant in alttp, switching around the order makes a difference in gameplay, trust me on this one.

I'm afraid not...Mega Man never clicked with me...^^;

That's too bad.

It can go non-linear...but that leads to one of two things...

1) Developers halfass it and the dungeon quality suffers.

2) The developers work very hard to overcome the obstacles of non-linearity, spending an abundance of time and money, pushing the game back and having to cut on other aspects on the game...all for non-linearity, which has no benefit and many will simply ignore.

No, making the games linear is what's halfassed about it, none of the second half dungeons of TP and WW use items from the other dungeons, this means that the developers have strugled to enforce a linear order but couldn't so they enforced by the cheapest way possible, by plot.

Point being, if you want to have a strict order of dungeons, make every item useful, if you can't do that, then have some flexibility in the order, make it so I can change up the order of dungeon that which their item only useful for them be changed around.

Maybe only have a strict order in the first three dungeons or something.

 

[DarkestLink]

expect that people have been asking for going back to non-linear gameplay in Zelda, no one is asking to go back to slavery(except for you know who).

A vocal minority located in the south wants slavery. A vocal minority on the internet wants non-linearity.

Alttp wasn't disorganised even though there was flexibility in dungeon choice.

aLttP was very disorganized. Although I'll admit that wasn't entirely due to non-linearity...there was also the fact that the line between main quest and sidequest was difficult to see.

No, enforcing a linear order takes more effort,

Ooh you're right...let me rephrase that...

Non-linearity is harder to pull off if you want to do it well. But if you want to halfass it like LoZ and aLttP, then yeah, it's much easier to pull off.

because you want every dungeon item to be usefull for every future item,

...What?

Nintendo clearly didn't want to make every item useful for every dungeon do why even bother with a strict order?

Forcing themselves to use every item in every dungeon is just as bad as restricting them to only use the dungeon's item. The developer should never be restricted. If they want to use this dungeon's item in another dungeon, then they should be able to do so...but that doesn't mean this item has to be used in every dungeon even if the developer has to force a halfassed puzzle into it.

No, making the games linear is what's halfassed about it,

A minute ago you were just claiming it took more effort.

none of the second half dungeons of TP and WW use items items from the other dungeons,

Earth Temple: Bow, boomerang, skull hammer, and grappling hook. Every previous dungeon item was used here and then some. What are you talking about?

Wind Temple: Grappling hook, boomerang, bow. No skull hammer or mirror shield. 3/5 still isn't bad.

Snowpeak: Well you have a point here...only the clawshots are used. Wasn't a very puzzle oriented dungeon to begin with though.

Temple of Time: Bow, Clawshot, Spinner. No Ball and Chain...which isn't a puzzle based item after all.

City in the Sky: Boomerang, Bow, Clawshot, Spinner. Getting there required spamming the hell out of the dominion rod. No Ball and Chain of course...although I'd strongly recommend it...not count boots or anything either since those are dungeon items.

to be this is proof that the developers have strugled to enforce a linear order but couldn't so they enforced by the cheapest way possible, by plot.

...Uhhh...why shouldn't the plot control linear order?

Point being, if you want to have a strict order of dungeons, make every item useful,

Again, this is just as bad as restricting them with one item. They could very well make ALL the items useful if they wanted...but this would require halfassing the puzzles JUST to include an item. The developers should have a little restrictions as possible. When they get too restricted, we get a crappy game. The option to use items should be there for them. In an ideal situation, they could use all the items in every dungeon...but I admit, this would cause its own problems, so we take what we can get.

 

[Ventus]

This image is perfect (right click and hit View Image if you want it big).

ESPECIALLY that last bit, everyone has a story to tell. Are you going to argue that everyone's story is the same exact thing? Cus I'm sure I didn't live George Washington's life.

THAT is why people are hating linearity. THAT is why people are clamoring for nonlinearity. We don't want to live the SAME EXPERIENCE EVERY TIME, because that is NOT what a world is. That is a level set.

 

[Salem]

aLttP was very disorganized. Although I'll admit that wasn't entirely due to non-linearity...there was also the fact that the line between main quest and sidequest was difficult to see.

This needs a thread of its own where we talk about alttp

Non-linearity is harder to pull off if you want to do it well. But if you want to halfass it like LoZ and aLttP, then yeah, it's much easier to pull off.

I'm not sure how you expect it to be done in a Zelda game to be deemed to be done "well".

Forcing themselves to use every item in every dungeon is just as bad as restricting them to only use the dungeon's item. The developer should never be restricted. If they want to use this dungeon's item in another dungeon, then they should be able to do so...but that doesn't mean this item has to be used in every dungeon even if the developer has to force a halfassed puzzle into it.

Then why design a cool weapon and then only use it for one dungeon?

A minute ago you were just claiming it took more effort.

Ahhh, yeah that's what I said, it takes more effort. I must have worded it wrong.

Earth Temple: Bow, boomerang, skull hammer, and grappling hook. Every previous dungeon item was used here and then some. What are you talking about?

Wind Temple: Grappling hook, boomerang, bow. No skull hammer or mirror shield. 3/5 still isn't bad.

Snowpeak: Well you have a point here...only the clawshots are used. Wasn't a very puzzle oriented dungeon to begin with though.

Temple of Time: Bow, Clawshot, Spinner. No Ball and Chain...which isn't a puzzle based item after all.

City in the Sky: Boomerang, Bow, Clawshot, Spinner. Getting there required spamming the hell out of the dominion rod. No Ball and Chain of course...although I'd strongly recommend it...not count boots or anything either since those are dungeon items.

In WW I was mainly talking about how the wind temple doesn't use the mirror shield from the earth temple.

Also I didn't mention out of dungeon usage.

...Uhhh...why should anything BUT the plot control the linear order?

This is strictly a personal thing I'll admit, but I don't like it when the plot says I can't do this yet and so on, I prefer it if I can't go to this area is because I wasn't prepared for it yet.

 

[ProtagonistJake]

aLttP was very disorganized. Although I'll admit that wasn't entirely due to non-linearity...there was also the fact that the line between main quest and sidequest was difficult to see.

:Chuckle:
Yeah, those giant resenting crystals and orbs on the map were pretty hard to distinguish as main or side quest alright...

I'm sorry for the rudeness, but come on...

 

[DarkestLink]

ESPECIALLY that last bit, everyone has a story to tell. Are you going to argue that everyone's story is the same exact thing? Cus I'm sure I didn't live George Washington's life.

...What does that have to do with linearity?

THAT is why people are hating linearity. THAT is why people are clamoring for nonlinearity. We don't want to live the SAME EXPERIENCE EVERY TIME, because that is NOT what a world is. That is a level set.

But in the end...it is the same experience each time. That's like saying playing OoT after lunch would make my day totally different compared to eating lunch after I play OoT.

:Chuckle:
Yeah, those giant resenting crystals and orbs on the map were pretty hard to distinguish as main or side quest alright...

Then you're stuck on a puzzle that requires an item you don't have...then you gain that item by doing something random and you do a double take "Wait, that was part of the main quest? That felt like a sidequest!"

I'm not sure how you expect it to be done in a Zelda game to be deemed to be done "well".

I don't think it can be done well...not in Zelda anyway. But I've the puzzle and story issues of non-linearity before. A response I've gotten is to give dungeons multiple puzzles and pathways that vary depending on what dungeon items you have. In addition, the story would branch in multiple ways depending on what dungeons you did. This sounds better than the past non-linearity, but it also sounds like it'd take an incredible amount of work for little payoff.

Then why design a cool weapon and then only use it for one dungeon?

The Ball and Chain and the Dominion Rod? Well the Ball and Chain wasn't really made for puzzles...it was made for combat. Whether you use it or not is up to you, sorta like the shield and hidden skills. Even in its own dungeon, it's not really used for puzzles. Smashing ice isn't a puzzle and putting a random chunk of ice in a random dungeon seems a bit silly. As for the Dominion Rod...it's just not a good item. Well OK, it was fun to use in the Temple of Time because it had a big puzzle built around it...but if they kept reusing the big statue puzzle, it would have gotten boring. The dungeons would have all been more or less the same. So why use the item on one dungeon? Because that's where it works.

In WW I was mainly talking about how the wind temple doesn't use the mirror shield from the earth temple.

Because the Mirror Shield sucks

Because they wanted to focus on Makar

Because the puzzles didn't feel as creative without Medli

Because the Mirror Shield sucks.

This is strictly a personal thing I'll admit, but I don't like it when the plot says I can't do this yet and so on, I prefer it if I can't go to this area is because I wasn't prepared for it yet.

Fair enough, but I feel order is important for story too, so in the end, it would need to be linear for story's sake whether we're prepared or not.

 

[Ventus]

...What does that have to do with linearity?

Because a gameplay experience is in itself a story. It's a past experience the moment you do it. Because everyone has their own story to tell, everyone has their own experiences to tell. In other words, we're not having the same exact experiences. The order in which you do things leads to a greater/lesser experience, as you said so yourself with the comment of how you felt "unorganized" after doing things in a different order.

But in the end...it is the same experience each time. That's like saying playing OoT after lunch would make my day totally different compared to eating lunch after I play OoT.

Nope, because you did a different sequence of events. It would be like working your biceps twice in a day then your triceps twice the next day, versus doing biceps once a day and triceps once on that same day. You're still doing the same things, but one could (potentially) be easier or harder than the other. It would be like swimming THEN eating directly afterwards, or eating THEN swimming directly afterwards. Namsayinyadig?

 

[ProtagonistJake]

Then you're stuck on a puzzle that requires an item you don't have...then you gain that item by doing something random and you do a double take "Wait, that was part of the main quest? That felt like a sidequest!"

Okay, how is it that happened to you, because even as a Kid when I sucked hard at video games, I never ran into a problem where an optional item is needed to complete the main quest, in fact, I KNOW there isn't a situation like that.
Are you talking about needing a dungeon item to do something that's not in a dungeon? because that would clearly clasify as a sidequest.

This is simple comprehension, i don't know what else to tell you here :hmm:

 

[DarkestLink]

Because a gameplay experience is in itself a story. It's a past experience the moment you do it. Because everyone has their own story to tell, everyone has their own experiences to tell. In other words, we're not having the same exact experiences. The order in which you do things leads to a greater/lesser experience, as you said so yourself with the comment of how you felt "unorganized" after doing things in a different order.

Ahhh you mean our story, not the game story...

Nope, because you did a different sequence of events. It would be like working your biceps twice in a day then your triceps twice the next day, versus doing biceps once a day and triceps once on that same day. You're still doing the same things, but one could (potentially) be easier or harder than the other. It would be like swimming THEN eating directly afterwards, or eating THEN swimming directly afterwards. Namsayinyadig?

I can see this happening in theory, but not the way it has been handled. There are some differences, I know, but, to me, they're too minor to be worth mentioning (I don't remember half of them).

Okay, how is it that happened to you, because even as a Kid when I sucked hard at video games, I never ran into a problem where an optional item is needed to complete the main quest, in fact, I KNOW there isn't a situation like that.

Ehhh...maybe it's just me, but I had no idea I'd need the Ether or Quake Medallion to beat the game.

 

[MW7]

Ehhh...maybe it's just me, but I had no idea I'd need the Ether or Quake Medallion to beat the game.

Not to mention the random excursions to get the flippers or ice rod. You definitely have hit on something questionable about ALttP's design. I love the game, but it was weird to have to figure out you needed these things only as you encountered the part of the game where they are required.