Does The Title Matter Now?

[Zemen]

In the upcoming game, Spirit Tracks, we see a new antagonist named Mallard, the Demon King, but wait a second... Wasn't Ganon/dorf the Demon King?

I know there are a good handful of theorists who have always looked closely at Ganon/dorf's titles throughout the series and used those titles to help construct a timeline. My question is this, does Ganon/dorf's title matter as a timeline placer anymore?

We see a new antagonist that is using one of Ganon/dorf's titles and this antagonist has been confirmed to not be Ganon/dorf.

Things to dicsuss:

1. Does the title of the antagonist matter to a theorist?
2. Does this change anyone's timeline?

For starters, I'll just say that it doesn't change my timeline one bit. If ST ends up changing some things that I thought I knew then it would just make me change my timeline from a CT placer to an AT placer. I've never really cared about Ganon/dorf's titles.

 

[Megamannt125]

In the upcoming game, Spirit Tracks, we see a new antagonist named Mallard, the Demon King, but wait a second... Wasn't Ganon/dorf the Demon King?

I know there are a good handful of theorists who have always looked closely at Ganon/dorf's titles throughout the series and used those titles to help construct a timeline. My question is this, does Ganon/dorf's title matter as a timeline placer anymore?

We see a new antagonist that is using one of Ganon/dorf's titles and this antagonist has been confirmed to not be Ganon/dorf.

Things to dicsuss:

1. Does the title of the antagonist matter to a theorist?
2. Does this change anyone's timeline?

For starters, I'll just say that it doesn't change my timeline one bit. If ST ends up changing some things that I thought I knew then it would just make me change my timeline from a CT placer to an AT placer. I've never really cared about Ganon/dorf's titles.

Ganondorf was the "Demon Thief" was he not, he's also been the "King of Shadows", but I don't remember once in the series him being called the "Demon King".

 

[Zemen]

Ganondorf was the "Demon Thief" was he not, he's also been the "King of Shadows", but I don't remember once in the series him being called the "Demon King".

Umm... Ganondorf has had multiple titels very similar to that of Demon King.

 

[Hayzer]

Ganondorf was the "Demon Thief" was he not, he's also been the "King of Shadows", but I don't remember once in the series him being called the "Demon King".

Maou of Darkness --> Demon King of Darkness in ALttP, ircc.

And he was called Demon King in LoZ and AoL, iirc.

Erimgard and Soj would be the ones to talk to.

 

[Master Kokiri 9]

Perhaps Mallard was trying to steal Ganon/dorf's thunder? I'm not entirely sure about this but we know Mallard is an evil entity that tryed to destroy New Hyrule and the settlers had feared him so much they called him a Demon King. Who knows maybe Mallard is some sort of new form of Ganon/dorf.

 

[Steve]

I'm putting my two cents in here, but Mallard was not confirmed to be the official name, after all, it has only appeared on the Spanish Spirit Tracks site, and for those who are unaware, mallard is Spanish for "train". Ultimately, he may not even have an official name, but Simply "The Demon King", as the English sites refer to him as.

 

[Zemen]

I'm putting my two cents in here, but Mallard was not confirmed to be the official name, after all, it has only appeared on the Spanish Spirit Tracks site, and for those who are unaware, mallard is Spanish for "train". Ultimately, he may not even have an official name, but Simply "The Demon King", as the English sites refer to him as.

Yeah, the Spanish version of the game is the one that calls him Mallard, and as far as us English speakers go, it's just the Demon King. According to ZeldaWiki and ZD, they have confirmed that he is NOT Ganon/dorf.

 

[Steve]

Yeah, the Spanish version of the game is the one that calls him Mallard, and as far as us English speakers go, it's just the Demon King. According to ZeldaWiki and ZD, they have confirmed that he is NOT Ganon/dorf.

It should be known that know one can know for sure of that, until someone has beaten the game, Twilight Princess as an example, Ganondorf doesn't appear until the very end, and before the game's release know one even thought for a second that he was involved. Chances are they have merely gotten as far as the beginning, and came to that conclusion based on the fact he's a train. It should be noted that there's a rumor floating around that Spirit Tracks may possibly be an origin story of the Trident of Power, and that the Demon King is sealed within a trident. This would fix a lot of loose ends with the timeline, which seems a bit too good to be true.

Edit: Also, Ganon was referred to as the Demon King in A Link to the Past, so there must be relation of some sort.

 

[MrMosley]

It should be known that know one can know for sure of that, until someone has beaten the game, Twilight Princess as an example, Ganondorf doesn't appear until the very end, and before the game's release know one even thought for a second that he was involved. Chances are they have merely gotten as far as the beginning, and came to that conclusion based on the fact he's a train. It should be noted that there's a rumor floating around that Spirit Tracks may possibly be an origin story of the Trident of Power, and that the Demon King is sealed within a trident. This would fix a lot of loose ends with the timeline, which seems a bit too good to be true.

I agree here. There is no way to conclusively say that the Demon King is not Ganon or at least possessed by Ganon in some way. So far, everything about the Demon King points straight to Ganon, while the only thing saying "no" is different game sites. I haven't seen anything yet that tells us the ending of the game, or comes out with some revolution as to exactly who the Demon King is. I am quite sure that if information was released as to the Demon King's backstory, we would know by now, rather than just having nothing.

Edit: Also, Ganon was referred to as the Demon King in A Link to the Past, so there must be relation of some sort.

A little thing to note here. In ALttP, where Ganon was referred to as the Demon King, he "possessed" Agahnim (questionable as to what exactly Agahnim was), but he was under the influence of Ganon. Who's to say that the same thing cannot happen here in ST? Perhaps Ganon returned way back, some big war happened, and now he has possessed a train. Its a stupid plot, but it ties in very well with those couple of things from ALttP.

 

[sign of table]

Ganondorf was the "Demon Thief" was he not, he's also been the "King of Shadows", but I don't remember once in the series him being called the "Demon King".

He's never been the "King of Shadows".

In Japanese Ma = demon, Ou = king and there's other stuff.

Almost every incarnation of Ganon has been referred as Maou in the Japanese (Maou means Demon King, of course).

FSA, LttP, and OoX he is called the Yami no Maou, which means Demon King of Darkness.

LoZ, OoT, and OoX he is called the Daimaou, which means Great Demon King.

And I THINK he is called Daimaou in TP. I'm not completely sure, though. It may have just been demon beast, or something.

My knowledge of TP stuffs is rather pitiful compared to all the random crap I know about most of the other games.

I don't care much about titles. I mean it's not a BAD thing to have going for your timeline. But, really, they seem to call people whoever they want.

For a while they thought that Vaati was the Yami no Maou.

This new demon king of ST does not seem like Ganon.

In OoX they called him both the Daimaou and the Yami no Maou.

I don't think it matters really, but to some it's incredibly important.

There doesn't have to be any relation at all, since it seems almost anyone evil can be thought to be a Maou. I wouldn't be surprised at all, however, if this demon carried the trident and led into FSA.

 

[Smertios]

Okay, about titles.

First of all, ignore the NoA titles completely. Let's use the original japanese titles.

Japanese fiction really likes to use the title of Maō to the main antagonist, which has been translated several times as "Demon King" or "Devil".

Daimaō means "Big Maō" or "Great Maō", and is often translated as "Great Demon King".

Yami no Maō means "Maō of Darkness" or "Demon King of Darkness".

In the Zelda series, the titles used are teh following:

Maō - OoT and TP
Daimaō - LoZ, AoL, OoX and TWW
Yami no Maō - OoX, LttP and FSA

Back in the days when theorizing in ZU was done only by a small group of theorists, this was a very recurring topic that was discussed. Basically, a group of theorists that defended what I like to call Leximgard-Skyral theory, argued that games showing the same title should come together in the timeline, OoX serving as point in which the title changed (it was the only game to show both titles).

This is what they believed:
...../-TWW---LoZ/AoL-OoX---FSA-LttP/LA
OoT

Blue being Daimaō Ganon arch, purpleish being the changing point for titles, and red being Yami no Maō Ganon arch.

Anyway, a better annalysis is definitely needed here. First of all, what exactly is a Maō? Well, I am no expert in Japanese culture, but, from what I got in ZL, a Maō is a class of demon is japanese fiction that controls a specific territory. So, it is a generic title, meaning there can be different maōs in the same universe, as long as they control different territories.

This is already good enough to show that Malladus having the title of "Demon King" (Maō) in ST isn't really a problem.

Daimaō, in my opinion, is also a very generic title. It is a Maō (or Demon King) that is more powerfull: "Great Demon King".

Now, on the main subject of this thread, I believe the only title that is important to the timeline is Yami no Maō. In FSA, they make it quite clear that, in order for one to become the Yami no Maō, he has to claim the trident of power. So, it is a very specific title, awarded only to the bearer of the Trident of Power.

Talking about "Maō", "Daimaō" and "Yami no Maō" is like talking about the titles of "King", "High King" and "King of England". When I say King, I am referring to any king. It is a generic title, pretty much like Maō. When I say High King, on the other hand, I'm still referring to a generic High King (for example, the High King of Ireland), but is more powerfull than other kings (the other kings in Ireland). It's just like differing from "Maō" to "Great Maō" (Daimaō).

Now, when I say the "King of England", I'm referring to a very specific king. The one who reigns over England. Similarly, when I say "Maō of Darkness" (Yami no Maō), I'm referring to a very, very specific Maō: the one who owns the Trident of Power. Because of that, I believe the only title that shows any importance to the storyline is that of Yami no Maō.

By that logics, it is wise to assume that all games showing Ganon holding a trident are supposed to come after FSA in the timeline (this is, most probably, what the devs intended with the whole trident backstory in FSA). So, LttP and OoX would have to follow FSA in the timeline, so we would have:

Yami no Maō Ganon being born in FSA;
Yami no Maō Ganon being killed in LttP;
Yami no Maō Ganon being ressurected and killed again in OoX.

So, imo, the order should definitely go as: FSA-LttP/LA-OoX

 

[Pinecove]

I'm only going to respond to the OP here:

Demon King = Daimaou = Big Demon King.

In other words, someone who's Daimaou only has to be a Demon. HOWEVER, Yami no maou is a special title only given to Ganon when he obtains the Trident or Darkness.

 

[sign of table]

Smertios, I'm almost positive that at the end of OoT Navi calls him Daimaou. He was a Maou throughout the whole game, and then at the end he is called Daimaou.

Atleast I'm pretty sure Erimgard said that lol

Oh and to nitpick:

Back in the days when theorizing in ZU was done only by a small group of theorists, this was a very recurring topic that was discussed.

It wasn't a recurring topic that was discussed, it was accepted and not discussed like the SW.

HOWEVER, Yami no maou is a special title only given to Ganon when he obtains the Trident or Darkness.

Or it's just whatever the **** he wants to call himself lol.

I mean people thought that Vaati was the King of Darkness.

And, yeah, Great Demon King is very generic. But how is it any more generic than King of Darkness, lol?

Talking about "Maō", "Daimaō" and "Yami no Maō" is like talking about the titles of "King", "High King" and "King of England". When I say King, I am referring to any king. It is a generic title, pretty much like Maō. When I say High King, on the other hand, I'm still referring to a generic High King (for example, the High King of Ireland), but is more powerfull than other kings (the other kings in Ireland). It's just like differing from "Maō" to "Great Maō" (Daimaō).

Now, when I say the "King of England", I'm referring to a very specific king. The one who reigns over England. Similarly, when I say "Maō of Darkness" (Yami no Maō), I'm referring to a very, very specific Maō: the one who owns the Trident of Power. Because of that, I believe the only title that shows any importance to the storyline is that of Yami no Maō.

Except Daimaou ALWAYS refers to a specific person in Zelda because there is always only ONE Daimaou at a time.

Daimaou refers to Ganon JUST THE SAME as Yami no Maou refers to Ganon. How does that make Daimaou unimportant? The Daimaou and the Yami no Maou are the same person. Iif England was the only country in the world and the King of England was the only king that "King/Great King/Awesome King/etc" could refer to then wouldn't that make it essentially the same as "King of England"? Thus giving either both significance, or both being generic and unimportant?

They're the same damn thing.

He has the trident in LoZ, and he's called BOTH the Daimaou and Yami no Maou in OoX.

You're saying that LoZ doesn't have the trident (even though artwork and the ONLY remake EVER made for the game (rerelease is the same thing as the original and they changed absolutely nothing). Even if that remake doesn't deserve a spot in the timeline, it shows clear intent that the developers invision LoZ Ganon as using the trident), and... I'm unsure about your views on OoX Ganon...

And this new background is soooooo bright compared to the old... it threw me off quite a bit. Thought I was on a different site for a minute.

 

[Pinecove]

Smertios, I'm almost positive that at the end of OoT Navi calls him Daimaou. He was a Maou throughout the whole game, and then at the end he is called Daimaou.

He's a Mau when Ganondorf, and then in the final figt when he becomes Ganon he becomes a Daimaou.

And, yeah, Great Demon King is very generic. But how is it any more generic than King of Darkness, lol?

Because King of Darkness is ONLY a title given to someone with the Trident. In no game where Ganon doesn't have the Trident is he called Yami no maou.

 

[sign of table]

Because King of Darkness is ONLY a title given to someone with the Trident. In no game where Ganon doesn't have the Trident is he called Yami no maou.

I guess you don't find what happens in BS LoZ, the only remake ever of the original LoZ made by the Zelda team, important at all?