Definitive Zelda Formula: Old vs. New?

[thePlinko]

By definition you can’t have a series without some kind of “formula.” How much of a formula needed is up for debate. Personally I think the formula was one of the best features of the series. It’s one that’s fairly unique compared to other games, even of the same genre. To see BotW resort to a style that feels like every other open world game out there is a little disappointing.

This isn’t the series “going back to its roots,” this is the series devolving into being a generic adventure title. Gone are the vast array of unique weapons and tools you slowly obtain throughout the game like every single other game in the series (aside from the multiplayer ones I guess). Here are the generic “dime a dozen” travelers swords and 2 new tools, both of which obtained at the beginning of the game. Gone are the unique locals and dungeons, chock full of secrets and quirky characters. Here are the generic “plains, volcano, lake, mountain, desert, beach,” 120 mini dungeons that all look the same, and hundreds upon hundreds of bland characters falling under 5 stereotypes corresponding to rack of the races. Gone is the epic, memorable music adding to the overall atmosphere and tone. Here are the generic piano riffs that work in some areas, but feel completely out of place in others.

The formula isn’t the problem, it never was, and never will be. It’s just the fact that every Zelda game becomes hated after a while, and then comes back to being beloved by fans. Skyward Sword is still in its hated phase, causing people to want the exact opposite of what it was. They had to think of why they hated the game and what they came up with was “formula”. The same thing happened with Windwaker and we got Toilet Princess. Eventually the hate for SS will die down and BotW will become the new game to hate on.

 

[Ten Thousand Needles]

I wouldn't call any Zelda an RPG. Zelda 2 had RPG elements but not enough for me to categorize it that way.

It was an ugly game when it released in 2005

This is just false. Everyone was hyped as hell for its artstyle and it was very well received when it was new. I still think it looks great, and don't see how anyone could consider it "ugly."

in 2005 in the midst of that "realistic" era of gaming graphics,

Lol what? Realism has only become a more popular approach to graphics as technology improves. The major exceptions to this would be games like Fortnite, which go for a low-enough polycount to run on toasters for the broadest appeal and Nintendo games which go for artstyle because they can't possibly compete with competitors' graphical capabilities.

 

[Spiritual Mask Salesman]

With the modern formula I'm not being pushed to do anything. The adventure will always be waiting, the stakes won't change, nothing will become more interesting and that sense of narrative progression being lost can really dilute my experience.

Conversely, even with the old formula you can still choose not to progress the story to a certain point. You won't have a lot to do, but that option is still there as with any game. Say I played Twilight Princess up to getting the Master Sword, I could go Fishing for the next 20 hours if I want, or play Roll Goal a million times, lol.

Although I get your point, emphasis on exploration can certainly detract from the narrative progression.

My dream for Zelda is to maintain the vastness of Breath of the Wild (it's the progression I've wanted the series to go towards for a long time) mixed with the thematic dungeons of old, with puzzles like those in shrines that have various solutions besides the "expected" one.

BotW is a step in the right direction for the series, but I think it needs further revision.

 

[Ten Thousand Needles]

My dream for Zelda is to maintain the vastness of Breath of the Wild (it's the progression I've wanted the series to go towards for a long time) mixed with the thematic dungeons of old, with puzzles like those in shrines that have various solutions besides the "expected" one.

BotW is a step in the right direction for the series, but I think it needs further revision.

I could not agree more. While I miss things like Dungeons and significant treasures, I think it was good for Nintendo to shed most conventions in order to find new ways to innovate. Now that they've found innovations, it would be cool to see some of the older traditions be incorporated in the new games. I loved finding shrines everywhere because even if they got kind of samey, increasing your health and stamina was always useful. In most open world games, your rewards for exploration are weapons/items that might have a unique name or something, but are generally worthless. On the opposite end, there was no excitement when you find a chest in BotW because you already got everything with a major gameplay reward at the very start. Now that the foundation has been laid, it would be amazing for BotW2 to have unique bosses that really utilize the improved combat. Add in some more traditional dungeons and actual rewards within them, and you've got a game that would be damn hard to complain about. That is, assuming it doesn't run like complete trash this time. The constant slow downs of BotW are really inexcusable.

 

[Castle]

I never understood the "doesn't age well" argument. Like we're supposed to expect that technology from ten years ago is supposed to compare to today's? If it looked alright back then, then why is it suddenly unacceptable now?

Even still, better for old game's visuals to "age poorly" than for your visuals to just look like a child's crayon drawing from the get-go. I guess your game's visuals can't age if they never had any fidelity to begin with.

Visual fidelity isn't as important as aesthetic anyway.

 

[Spirit]

Conversely, even with the old formula you can still choose not to progress the story to a certain point. You won't have a lot to do, but that option is still there as with any game. Say I played Twilight Princess up to getting the Master Sword, I could go Fishing for the next 20 hours if I want, or play Roll Goal a million times, lol.

Although I get your point, emphasis on exploration can certainly detract from the narrative progression.

My dream for Zelda is to maintain the vastness of Breath of the Wild (it's the progression I've wanted the series to go towards for a long time) mixed with the thematic dungeons of old, with puzzles like those in shrines that have various solutions besides the "expected" one.

BotW is a step in the right direction for the series, but I think it needs further revision.

You'll still need to take the next step to finish the game though.

With BotW you could skip all the steps and just take on Ganon, you could skip the entire adventure which made things feel hollow and as if they didn't matter.

Old formula never let you do that outside of intentionally messing with the game and glitching it.

 

[Bowsette Plus-Ultra]

You'll still need to take the next step to finish the game though.

With BotW you could skip all the steps and just take on Ganon, you could skip the entire adventure which made things feel hollow and as if they didn't matter.

Old formula never let you do that outside of intentionally messing with the game and glitching it.

You can, but the fight will be incredibly difficult for someone who just tries to run into Hyrule Castle unprepared. Almost everyone starting the game will run in and be crushed by one of the Blights without even laying eyes on Ganon.

What's important is that you can. If you're prepared for the fight, you can battle Ganon right off the bat and stand victorious knowing that the game didn't give you permission to fight him. You conquered Ganon of your own initiative.

 

[SpiritOfTheHero]

I'd more so go for the old.

Concepts like linearity have become dirty words in the open world movement gaming has had in recent years.

Suddenly every game needs choice and expansive open areas. People want to do things in random orders, narrative progression be damned (succinct narrative progression, at least).

What bugs me about open world and 'free' games is that you 'could' do the thing if you 'want' to but you don't 'have' to.
Things have less of a feel of immediacy and numerous narrative elements like tension and intrigue can be lost when you can do things out of order whenever you feel like it.

Open world and freedom of choice games aren't bad, but when there's a kingdom to save and you're playing a game to take part in a grand adventure I want to feel more like I have a reason to do things.

With the modern formula I'm not being pushed to do anything. The adventure will always be waiting, the stakes won't change, nothing will become more interesting and that sense of narrative progression being lost can really dilute my experience.

When it comes to Legend of Zelda, I do miss the old formula. As far as open worlds are concerned, that isn't the problem because LoZ has always been an exploration-based narrative and this is a common staple for the adventure genre of gaming.

I think RPG only works when it is executed in part, not in whole. I guess if we count Zelda 2, then it has been an RPG at some point, but it's perfectly possible to have an open world with a linear narrative where choices are built-in for you rather than requiring you to make those choices.

I dunno if TP's graphical style has aged all that well. It was an ugly game when it released in 2005 in the midst of that "realistic" era of gaming graphics, and the HD remaster only served to blow the muddy textures into high definition.

I don't know about Twilight Princess being an ugly game. Its graphical art style looks more like an homage to Ocarina of Time's gritty textures and semi-realistic approach.

This is just false. Everyone was hyped as hell for its artstyle and it was very well received when it was new. I still think it looks great, and don't see how anyone could consider it "ugly."

It was also an obvious homage to Ocarina of Time's art style which was gritty and semi-realistic rather than the cartoonish, cel-shaded approach of Wind Waker and Skyward Sword. Although the latter two games also mean that those artistic choices are timeless and Wind Waker still looks good even by today's standards.

I never understood the "doesn't age well" argument. Like we're supposed to expect that technology from ten years ago is supposed to compare to today's? If it looked alright back then, then why is it suddenly unacceptable now?

Even still, better for old game's visuals to "age poorly" than for your visuals to just look like a child's crayon drawing from the get-go. I guess your game's visuals can't age if they never had any fidelity to begin with.

Visual fidelity isn't as important as aesthetic anyway.

I think that depends on what kind of aesthetic you're going for. Is it a cel-shaded graphics style reminiscent of a cartoon? In which case, that'll age well. Then there's the art style that's more in the vein of Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess which is a gritty texture with an attempt at realism. In which case, the latter art style will not age well unless it's remastered or remade to fit current expectations of video game graphics. I don't think visual fidelity is necessarily absent in cel-shaded cartoony looking graphics either, it's just an art style preference. So, because something ages well, or not at all, doesn't mean it lacked fidelity from the get-go.

 

[Castle]

Is it a cel-shaded graphics style reminiscent of a cartoon? In which case, that'll age well.

They put a glossy veneer over it to hide the lack of fidelity. Kinda like how old women slather themselves in makeup and hang jewelry off themselves like a Christmas tree to make themselves look good.

I don't think visual fidelity is necessarily absent in cel-shaded cartoony looking graphics either

Low resolution textures and minimal poly count abound. Most of the effort goes into lighting which isn't all that difficult to achieve the toon effect. At least ninty puts some marginal effort into animation to make movement pop.

This is what I miss...

Spoiler

Vintage Geek Culture - Katsuya Terada

 

[Seadragon]

I don't know about Twilight Princess being an ugly game. Its graphical art style looks more like an homage to Ocarina of Time's gritty textures and semi-realistic approach.

Personally I feel like TP was more dark and bland than OoT, OoT's world is more colorful.

 

[AncientPoe]

Well, regarding the original post, that's sort of a difficult question to unpack. There isn't really an "old" and "new". Zelda games have gone through quite a few eras.

The Legend of Zelda and Zelda II: Adventure of Link both stress exploration and challenge of execution. You wander the world fairly free of restrictions, but are gated by your skill at fighting enemies and evading damage just as much as you are by any gating mechanics. Even dungeons are more about simply putting in the time, and not so much about solving any sort of overarching puzzle.

Then you hit the early 3D era, capable of a degree of sophistication and physical atmosphere previously unheard of, and emphasis moves more towards understanding the physical relationships in an environment. Combat becomes focused on complex combat options against a single foe. Dungeons become puzzle boxes where you can sometimes change many aspects of it, or how you move through it. While this was seen in single instances in games like Link to the Past or Link's Awakening, it becomes a central tenant in games like Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask. Not only are dungeons defined by their relationship to each other, but the overworld now becomes an extension of that puzzle-solving mentality by often requiring lengthy solutions or strings of events to even get from one dungeon to the next. And while there continue to be 2D Zelda games as well, they don't really define the franchise in any real way, but instead either follow its current trends or emulate older ideas (so I'm not really gonna get into them).

Then you reach the late 3D era with the likes of Wind Waker, Twilight Princess, and Skyward Sword. While each one attempts to do something new, none of them really break real ground in how they are designed. Instead they mostly just react to one another. Their defining and unifying characteristic, however, becomes one of... how to put this... tour guideship? Instead of plopping a hefty puzzle or combat challenge on the player's plate, the games seem more structured to create a variety of set pieces that it intends to lead you through. Numerous features are created to ensure that no one ever loses the trail for even a moment. Regardless of what order you can or can't complete tasks in and how much freedom there is in such decisions (where they even exist), a defined and set path through the game is created and adhered to, and anything that might slow or divert the player is largely illusory. Dungeons begin to exhibit a looping structure that discourages backtracking, various hint systems are created that tell or simply show you how to overcome the next obstacle, and martial difficulty takes a serious dive.

Then we have Breath of the Wild. What defines this era? No idea, it's just begun.

So, I'd say we have four definite eras or styles of Zelda: Git Gud, Figure It Out, Take My Hand Sweetie, and Breath of the Wild.

As for my favorite, and which I think is best and would like to go back to? I think you can Figure It Out for yourself...

 

[Bowsette Plus-Ultra]

It was also an obvious homage to Ocarina of Time's art style which was gritty and semi-realistic rather than the cartoonish, cel-shaded approach of Wind Waker and Skyward Sword. Although the latter two games also mean that those artistic choices are timeless and Wind Waker still looks good even by today's standards.

While that may be the case, the textures are still muddy and brown. This hurt doubly so for me even when the game launched, because another Zelda-like game with a far prettier set of graphics and visual design released around the same time:

This was an open world game with Zelda-like dungeon, bosses, and progression. It features a graphical style that makes Twilight Princess look like actual poop, and it was developed by Rare.

 

[thePlinko]

They put a glossy veneer over it to hide the lack of fidelity. Kinda like how old women slather themselves in makeup and hang jewelry off themselves like a Christmas tree to make themselves look good.


Low resolution textures and minimal poly count abound. Most of the effort goes into lighting which isn't all that difficult to achieve the toon effect. At least ninty puts some marginal effort into animation to make movement pop.

This is what I miss...

Spoiler

Vintage Geek Culture - Katsuya Terada

Ok you just lost me there with the links Awakening artwork. LA is arguably the most toon-like game in the series, even more so than Windwaker I’d say.

The Zelda series has always been cartoon like. Ever since the very first entry. I mean just take a look at the concept art:


LttP and OoT you have a bit stronger of an argument, as they’re certainly more “realistic” than Zelda 1. But just look at this artwork of some of the kokiri in OoT. Their faces alone are incredibly cartoony.

Zelda was never meant to be realistic. I mean for Pete’s sake this is a game where you can pull a monsters eye out with a spring-loaded grappling hook only to blow it up with a remote control mouse. Video games are supposed to take us out of reality, not put us in more of it. If realism is what you’re looking for than you might as well stop playing video games.

 

[snoc]

Ok you just lost me there with the links Awakening artwork. LA is arguably the most toon-like game in the series, even more so than Windwaker I’d say.

The Zelda series has always been cartoon like. Ever since the very first entry. I mean just take a look at the concept art:
View attachment 42996

LttP and OoT you have a bit stronger of an argument, as they’re certainly more “realistic” than Zelda 1. But just look at this artwork of some of the kokiri in OoT. Their faces alone are incredibly cartoony.

Zelda was never meant to be realistic. I mean for Pete’s sake this is a game where you can pull a monsters eye out with a spring-loaded grappling hook only to blow it up with a remote control mouse. Video games are supposed to take us out of reality, not put us in more of it. If realism is what you’re looking for than you might as well stop playing video games.

100% agree, even if it is more gritty and realistic from time to time the art style should portray the games in a good way, like cartoon style totally fit link in wind waker, imagine a realistic link in that game lol.

 

[Bowsette Plus-Ultra]

100% agree, even if it is more gritty and realistic from time to time the art style should portray the games in a good way, like cartoon style totally fit link in wind waker, imagine a realistic link in that game lol.

I think a more realistically proportioned Link in Wind Waker could have worked.

I'd also disagree with the realistic graphics. Aiming for "realism" in video games never ages well in the long run and inevitably looks far worse than more stylistic games. This:

Will always look worse than this: