Why a New 'Darker' LoZ Would Do Well

[JuicieJ]

2) 'cept Demise isn't eternal, nor does he have limitless power.

Target Locked: Demise. This eternal being has conquered time itself. It is the source of all monsters. According to legend...it appears differently in each epoch...

My hate...never perishes. It is born anew in a cycle without end!

Yeah, I'm pretty sure I described him accurately. If you would take the time read the text properly, you'd know what Nintendo told us about him in-game.

We mortally wounded him, something impossible were he as strong as people make him out to be. He had to take a knee because of the damage we dealt to him, a god could never be so much as subdued by a human.

The Master Sword was blessed by Zelda, Hylia reborn. It has a holy power in it that Hylia had when she defeated him before. Were Link to have a normal sword, he'd have stood no chance. Again, read the text properly.

Even with a blade of evil's bane, it wouldn't be possible in the hands of a human.

Unless that human is the chosen hero of the goddess.

This is really just me looking at it from an outside perspective, you hit it on the head, but even then...Demise was lacking as a villain. He has all the reason to doubt and scoff at Link's seemingly futile attempts at victory, but why didn't he just go on and rid himself of the gadfly? Achieve your goal that is but steps away, rather than allow even the most unlikely of people to defeat you. That's common sense, as a villain. Do anything and everything you can to achieve your goal, that's what a powerhungry fool villain would and SHOULD do.

He was lacking as a villain due to the fact that he wasn't directly in the game long, but not as a character. He had an underlying presence the whole time, something many people seem to conveniently overlook.

Demise and Ganondorf? Nope, they all but failed at their goal, which makes them look like sorry excuses for villains in my eyes.

Yes, they failed. So what? That's the whole point of the story.

Ghirahim, as you noted, had actual reasons (and quite comical ones at that) for not destroying Link. Without Link, Ghirahim likely wouldn't have known about the second Door of TIme, and therefore wouldn't achieve his own goal of resurrecting his master.

Without Link around, Ghirahim would have captured Zelda, not to mention without Impa. And Ghirahim found out about the second Gate of Time on his own. Have you forgotten he found out in the Fire Sanctuary? He beat Link there. It's not like he followed him.

However, we all know that Ghirahim *could have* beaten Link. We know that he showed the scamp a little bit of mercy. I can see Ghirahim's reasoning, however Demise and Ganondorf were jokes.

Sure, he could have. But he didn't. That's what matters. Demise and Ganondorf weren't jokes, either. They were legitimate threats.
They were just taken down by a worthy opponent, and not because they underestimated them. They both had the power to come back later in the battles, especially Demise, which he actually did to a degree.

3) Ghirahim was a pawn though, he outright told us "I need the girl to revive my master!". That's his purpose – work to revive your master, or in otherwords, serve as the pawn that he rightfully is. The difference between Ghirahim and Zant though, is that while Ghirahim knew and accepted that he was lower in the hierarchy of power than Demise, Zant tried to show himself as the true bigshot when it was Ganondorf all along.

A pawn is a useless object that is taken advantage of by a higher being. Zant fits that role perfectly. Ghirahim does not. He did everything on his own, whereas Zant had no power until Ganon gave some of his own to Zant.

4)Yes, again it's just me going a bit overboard with my wants and 'needs'. Still, the Zelda series is a bit too lighthearted. Sure, we don't need ongoing wars and people being killed outright, however I do feel that the hero shouldn't always be on top. The hero should have to feel pain and suffering. Not temporary pain, as was the case with Zelda's kidnapping in SS, but permanent pain, such as how Termina was destroyed and the people nowhere to be found. What I'm saying is, Link needs to lose. Just one more time; MM showed us what Nintendo could do with dark themes and overall insanity, now take that a step further.

"Termina was destroyed and the people were nowhere to be found..." I'm pretty sure Link saved the day in Majora's Mask in the end. The hero also is never "on top" until the very end when the evil force has been defeated. Until then, he's at a large disadvantage. You seem to be ignoring quite a few things with your statements. I'd consider going back and playing the games again, studying them carefully and observing them as I've suggested. You might get a more accurate standpoint on a few things. You have many valid points, but others are...lacking.

And, in case you didn't know, Link has officially lost once in Nintendo's (sucky) timeline. Did you get your (pointless due to the fact that the whole point of the series is for the hero to win) wish?

 

[Ventus]

Demise and his hatred are not one in the same. Regardless of what the text ingame says, there's no way he is eternal. I killed him. I freaking ERADICATED HIM, JUST LIKE THE GAME SAYS I DID. He's gone. Zip. Nada. His hatred may remain, but Demise himself? He went poof and I sucked him up in my pseudo vaccum cleaner/blade of evil's bane.

You wouldn't say Ghirahim was taken advantage of by Demise? Ghirahim was the holder (or possibly THE) of Demise's sword, a fate which he laughingly accepts [literally – he laughs as Demise rips the blade out of him, shouting something along the lines of YOUR WORLD IS DOOMED MUHAHAHA]. Ghirahim is a pawn in just the same way as Zant was. It just seems different because Ghirahim is the only acting power throughout the game 'til the very end, at which point he succumbs to his fate. *IF* Ghirahim was not a pawn, he himself would have destroyed the entirety of Hyrule, brought down Skyloft down to the surface and rule the world. Otherwise, he's a pawn. Why waste potential?

No, Link is *always* on top. At certain moments, it would appear that if he jumped the gun and went straight to attacking the major villain, he'd lose (as he did in TWW in a certain scene with a certain someone), however knowing that the villains will ALWAYS be stupid in some shape or form [cockiness, lack of a watchful eye...you name it], Link is perpetually on top. That's how the game script is written. And it needs to change, as we've experienced it for oh so long. BTW, official confirmation outside of the game isn't the same (doesn't provide the same feeling) as events seen ingame. The Game Over screen doesn't count.

EDIT: Here, this is what DEMISE and GANONDORF needed to be like:

Caius is a true villain. He's ruthless. If anything, HE would be *eternal* (have to see the bonus ending).

 

[JuicieJ]

Demise and his hatred are not one in the same. Regardless of what the text ingame says, there's no way he is eternal. I killed him. I freaking ERADICATED HIM, JUST LIKE THE GAME SAYS I DID. He's gone. Zip. Nada. His hatred may remain, but Demise himself? He went poof and I sucked him up in my pseudo vaccum cleaner/blade of evil's bane.

He's directly described in-game as an "eternal being". I don't know how you can get more blunt than that. He's also existed for epochs, which means large periods of time, similar to eons and eras. The fact that his hatred exists after he's gone is a key piece of evidence for this. He also wasn't destroyed until he was sealed inside the Master Sword, which took time to destroy him completely. He also could have escaped out of the Master Sword, as implied by Impa. He's basically like the guardian spirits of Hyrule, such as the Deku Tree and the Dragons. They can live forever, but can die under certain circumstances.

You wouldn't say Ghirahim was taken advantage of by Demise? Ghirahim was the holder (or possibly THE) of Demise's sword, a fate which he laughingly accepts [literally – he laughs as Demise rips the blade out of him, shouting something along the lines of YOUR WORLD IS DOOMED MUHAHAHA]. Ghirahim is a pawn in just the same way as Zant was. It just seems different because Ghirahim is the only acting power throughout the game 'til the very end, at which point he succumbs to his fate. *IF* Ghirahim was not a pawn, he himself would have destroyed the entirety of Hyrule, brought down Skyloft down to the surface and rule the world. Otherwise, he's a pawn. Why waste potential?

(sarcasm) Yes, Demise totally was controlling Ghirahim throughout the entire game, making Ghirahim a pointless tool. Come on, man, Ghirahim acted out of his own will. Look up the definition of the word "pawn". You'll find that Ghirahim doesn't fit the description.

No, Link is *always* on top. At certain moments, it would appear that if he jumped the gun and went straight to attacking the major villain, he'd lose (as he did in TWW in a certain scene with a certain someone), however knowing that the villains will ALWAYS be stupid in some shape or form [cockiness, lack of a watchful eye...you name it], Link is perpetually on top. That's how the game script is written. And it needs to change, as we've experienced it for oh so long. BTW, official confirmation outside of the game isn't the same (doesn't provide the same feeling) as events seen ingame. The Game Over screen doesn't count.

I wouldn't call the villain having the upper hand by almost having the world in his grasp "Link being on top".

EDIT: Here, this is what DEMISE and GANONDORF needed to be like:

Caius is a true villain. He's ruthless. If anything, HE would be *eternal* (have to see the bonus ending).

You expect far too much darkness and violence out of Zelda, don't you? The way you're describing this, you might as well be saying Zelda needs to have a M-rated game. (Exaggeration)

 

[TheWind]

Fans have been wanting a darker Zelda for years. We're never going to get a darker title than MM. TP is dark as well, but nothing compared to the insanity and twisted-ness of MM. If they follow a similar formula for characters and side-quests like they did in MM, we could get a very pleasing dark Zelda. We can't have anything too dark because little kids play the series, but what made MM so dark was that you saw how the moon was affecting every living thing in the land. From the ranch, to the graveyard, everyone was affected by the power of Majora. The side-quests were in-depth and lengthy, giving you insight on the lives of the people of Clock Town. The entire ambiance of the game is built around the experiences of the locals.
In conclusion, to make an effectively (when I say effective, I mean dark, but not dark enough to limit the demographic) dark new title, all they need to do is create a similar situation. A sense of urgency, a sense of desperation and a looming omen that is affecting everyone in the land.

 

[Kikirini]

I would be interested in seeing a dark Zelda game like MM again. Not just visually dark, like TP was, but with the intimate feeling of fear and doom like MM had. That one really spoke to me, I remember getting tears in my eyes in the final hours of the third day and seeing some the characters hiding. That's what I'd love to see in a Zelda game again.

 

[KogamoSJS]

I'd have to agree, but now's not the time. The Wii U would be perfect for it, but the 3DS is too much of a light-hearted system(mainly because it is a portable system). Either way, I think it should happen for the Wii U.

 

[LinkPTY]

I'll like that a protagonist dies at some point, maybe a childhood friend of Link that become fond of and suddenly the main antagonist kills her. Something that actually makes you hate the antagonist.

 

[Link00105]

It would be really interesting to see how things would go out with another 'darker' title, I more than likely would probably enjoy it a bunch. As for whether Nintendo should do it though I don't know how well that would go over. The WiiU tech demo style could make a darkish game and as long as it still had the fairy-tale feel to it it'd be great.

 

[guapo2003]

A newer darker Zelda I don't think would get the credit it deserves. Besides after Majora's Mask and Twilight Princess they don't really need another one.

 

[Chris073]

I think that Zelda WiiU should be an industrial zelda

Please God no. The train in ST even was too modern. They should keep it Medieval style, like its supposed to be

 

[Ordonary Guy]

I am also a huge fan of the darker side of Zelda. I defenitely want the next Zelda to be close to the tech demo, with more mature or sinister themes as well. I could imagine Link being hunted by a stealthy assassin who is after his hearts in a nocturnal Hyrule setting, for example.

The difficuilty would be though in keeping Zelda a unique and identifyable game though. I am also convinced that we should not expect too many innovations with Miyamoto still being a general producer.

 

[jannett]

i dont know.. i mean, i really like this idea of adding darker elements to zelda games, but i really like the light-weighted elements that other most zelda games had.

 

[Pen]

I definitely agree with you! During my years of reading book, watching films and playing video games I've come to realize that I like dark story lines very much. I think Nintendo should make a really dark Zelda game for the WiiU, the graphics would look extraordinary.

If Nintendo could take the dark feeling from Majora's Mask and combine it with the dark visuals of Twilight Princess I think they could go far. I for one would love to see that, it would (hopefully) be a great game, and a very dark one too.

 

[green goron]

I think the best zelda game should be rated T. Rated M for zelda wouldn't work out but with all the recent releases I think a game like TP would work well. I never want to see zelda have blood or have people's limbs falling off but SS is just too childish with those cartooning graphics. Tp is probably the best graphics in a zelda game. If WiiU zelda uses TP as a base and improves the graphics it's a solid starting point.

 

[Ventus]

If WiiU zelda uses OoT as a base and improves the graphics it's a solid starting point.

Fix'd

But really, Green Goron, SS graphics technically speaking are better than TP Zelda, but I agree with you slightly about art style. T rating isn't so wanted, but if it has to be done to have a groundbreaking, absolutely amazing Zelda release then so be it. Really, I want a Zelda game to have a story modeled after Final Fantasy XIII-2 – memorable characters, crazy antagonist who is just completely badass not only in looks but ALSO in actions, and so on.