Realism and Zelda

[Spirit]

Not as loaded as the title makes it sound...

I had a chat with a friend today about realism in video games and wondered what element Zelda fans would prefer to have realism in it if they had to choose.


Physics- Simple enough, realistic physics. would you like to be hounded by the laws of realistic physics while exploring Hyrule? Batman seems to get along well enough, how about Link having to be a bit more strategic and careful with his heroic deeds when using items and confronting enemies?

Story- hard one in Zelda to have realism in its story when we have all the stuff about the Triforce but the legend itself could be nerfed and viewed as legends and religions are here in our world. The quest and missions could still be in the name of this stuff but it'd have a degree of background appeal rather than forefront plot maker.

Presentation- Art style basically, but would you opt for a realistic art style to save the other two elements if you were forced to choose?

so any or all? how real would you want your Zelda to be if you had to choose.

 

[Seth]

I don't care about realism. As long as the story is logically consistent within the game's world that's all that matters.

 

[Ventus]

Geez Spirit, stop making threads that sound super huge!

No, I appreciate it. I think I would opt for a realistic art style, like TP but take it a bound further. I think Zelda is good as it is with the whimsical fantasy story and the physics; with the Stamina Meter in existence things are already realistic enough and making it to where Link would be encumbered if he had too many items would be taking it too far in my opinion. So, yes, presentation is where I want the realism at. :yes:

 

[JuicieJ]

Realism shouldn't apply to the Zelda franchise if you ask me. Storylines should make sense, of course, but to stray from the fantasy element that has defined the series since the beginning would be an insult to the franchise, and a realistic art style would be the same. Twilight Princess's art style, while not exactly realism -- and while absolutely not a bad art style -- was already somewhat of a betrayal to the fantasy setting. All-out realism would be a very bad move.

So, in short, realism shouldn't be a part of Zelda. I guess it should somewhat apply to the physics, but it should definitely be very limited as a whole. It would only hold the series back.

 

[A Link In Time]

Physics are a definite "No" regarding realism. A large chunk of the franchise's fun factor stems from exploring areas and defeating enemies in the most bizarre ways possible. No Action-Adventure or RPG game features realistic physics. Look no further than Skyrim with characters able to shoot lightning from their fingertips, along the lines of Sith lightning.

I've always been an opponent of realistic presentation in Zelda. While I would accept another darker Zelda game, I'd prefer if Nintendo not directly return to Twilight Princess's color palette. The morbid and dull vibe emitted from the game failed to manifest significant character emotion. Twilight Princess tried to hard to be dark and ultimately failed to do so. King Bulblin's kidnapping of the Ordon villagers at game's start; Colin's second kidnapping; the cutscene of the Interlopers after freeing Lanayru from its shadow, Colin's second kidnapping, the entire Arbiter's Grounds death motif, and Yeta's transformation into a horrible beast do little to sway me towards caring for the overworld more. Less is more when it comes to realism in Zelda and while Nintendo already achieved this with Majora's Mask and Zant's dismal characterization, it's been more miss than hit unfortunately. I'm not bashing Twilight Princess but it was poorly presented.

That leaves only one option: A realistic narrative. In a recent thread arguing whether or not Link is an "ideal" hero, I responded "No". While his deeds certainly are brave and noble, risking his lives for innocent bystanders caught in the maelstrom, he's as stereotypical a hero as you can get. Why? Because he always succeeds. Link doesn't necessarily have to be defeated but the story shouldn't wrap up with a happy ending all the time. The biggest offender was Twilight Princess. The game was all doom and gloom yet ultimately the forces of evil perished with no major casualties for their valiant opponents. Sometimes you can't have what you want without sacrifice. Nintendo should incorporate such nuances in future installments.

 

[Koosholts]

The Legend of Zelda video game series is a fantasy-action&adventure genre. As such, making the game seem "realistic" shouldn't be Nintendo's #1 priority. As long as the game-play is interactive and enjoyable; the story-line consistent, I'll be a happy Zelda gamer.

 

[rock]

I don't think I'd necessarily want to see an entire revamp in realism with the game physics, but I would like to see a realistic inspiration given to refresh the take on the items and in turn, how the player plays the game. Playing any game I'd ask myself, "why can't I hit this thing with a different item? They are both things I can shoot, or both things I can swing, or both things that can cut?" and the only answer in response would be, "because that's how the game is." Not saying this drove me nuts, but I would rather much have Zelda present old items, with new flair.

For those of you who have seen my posts regarding The Cardinal Kingdom, you may be aware of my Bow and Arrow combinations. I for one believed that if a hookshot or clawshot were introduced, that it should be a limp chain after projecting (like in Smash Bros, I believe?). However, what if there was another, more "realistic" way to give the players a grappling hook/hookshot?

My idea was to be able to combine Arrows, Rope, and a variety of Fishhooks as well as Arrowheads (all combined in the same manner TP did Bomb Arrows) to create a Grappling Hook (for climbing via throwing) or a Hookshot (for enemies and Bow and Arrow purposes). Doing so would negate the inherent auto pull of the player toward different objects, but instead letting them pull said objects to them. Imagine shooting a Bokoblin with a Steel Hook (for Hookshot) and it's stuck in him so Link can "rope" himself in by tugging on the rope. If stats and improvements were incorporated, then strength could determine the difference between pulling the enemy and launching them (tehe).

 

[Shadsie]

Hmmm.

I've been told by people that one of the things they most love about my fanfiction is the realism that I bring to the Zelda world.

I'm not completely realistic. I *like* being able to defy physics in a cartoony-way with things like riding cuccoos - it's so ridculous it's hilarious. I actually once read an article about the art and craft of science fiction and fantasy writing in a writer's magazine my household susbscribes to. The article was by a sci-fi writer who claimed that he learned the concept of "writing physics for other-worlds" via his childhood love of videogames. As long as the the rules-that-don't-work-in-our-world are *consistent* for the otherworld, it will make sense. You can't do this too much. Hyrule is supposed to feel like a real country, not anvil-dropping Looney Tunes land (so that kind of thing has to be used sparingly and consistently when it does come up).

Legend, Myth and Religion in Hyrule I'm mixed on. Really. I co-wrote a long fanfiction once that featured "people losing faith in the Goddesses and the magic going away" as a part of the storyline. Link brought it back, but found out that the Goddesses weren't quite as divine as advertised. Still, there was another, basic magic force/universal neutral life-force at work in the world. So, in the end, the growing skeptics were partially right? And so were those that still held to the "old ways." Partially right, if not completely. The other day, I was thinking of another videogame I haven't played in a while: "Wild ARMS 3." As I recall the world of Filiagia, I remember there being two major religions on the planet. One was the Baskar people, who were psuedo-Native American hippie types who believed in elemental spirits. The other was, I kid you not, a rationalist-religion that "didn't follow any gods" and "believed in science and reason" but still operated like and was considered by the people of the planet a "religious order." (They believed in the crazy idea that humans came from space and were dedicated to unearthing lost technology to help people). Both religions turn out to be right - as the lost technology exists *and* your party makes use of the elemental spirits for magic-casting. I like situations where there's a third-option or all sides have a "piece of the truth." I think that's more realistic than either destroying a world's religion completely or making everyone devout. I was really impressed in Skyward Sword with the character of Jakamar. He tells you to pray at the bird statues (to save your game), yet, later you find out that he doesn't believe in the Surface. He believes in one side of an "old myth" but not the other. It's a little detail, but I loved it (even though he turned out to be wrong, it didn't matter - it was just a little detail that made an NPC have a little realism).


Realism I'd like to see:

I think it would be interesting if injuries and medicine were slightly more real. I don't think it would be too horrible to have Link bleed a little. There was a little flash of red when he got hit by a guillotine in the Shadow Temple in Ocarina of Time. It would be cool if his uniform took a little damage. I mean, "Shadow of the Colossus" remains a T-rated game, but it features (black) blood (from enemies) and a progressive disheveling of the character's apperance. It wasn't so nasty that it put it into M-rated territory. Let Link's tunic get a little scuffed and burned. Have it "fixed" when he visits NPC friends or rests a bit. I think if injuries and medical stuff were as realistic as how I write them in my fanfiction, the gameplay wouldn't be as fun, but adding a *slight* bit of realism wouldn't be so bad.

Care of steed-beasts and other animals. Okay, all I'm asking for is a little bit of poop in the fields. Come on! A goat-field without Cocco-Puffs? I've worked with goats and horses! I KNOW BETTER! It's not good to leave a horse saddled all the time, or to make the horse's "home" a teather to a stake. They should have an open pen to run in, or a stable, or best-yet, alternation between the two (the stable for bad weather, the penned field for exercise and grazing).

Little details. I think it would be interesting if the games made you maintain your weapons every once in a while, or have to do things to take care of your hygine or had Link sit down to eat a meal to replenish his strength.

Those are my thoughts on the realism. In the end, I like a mix of reality and fantasy in my fantasy stories. Too much of one or another can become a bore.


As far as art style... Skyward Sword's style is my favorite. My guy points out some of the jaggedness and mistakes in animation, but if those could be cleared up, future games with Skyward's general style would be quite nice for me. It's colorful and has that "Impressionist painting" feel. It's vibrant without the ridiculous cartoon proportions. Wind Waker was fun in that it felt like playing a child's storybook, but it also felt "too childish" for the somewhat dark story it presented. (Wind Waker Ganondorf does remain my favorite style for him, though). But, yeah, I think Skyward had a good balance as far as "look."

 

[Sir Quaffler]

Physics - yeah sure, I'm all about making Hyrule's physics more internally consistent. This won't require much, just have some slight clothes damage due to fire, slashes, etc., improve on what little needs to be improved on SS's swordplay mechanic, make the items you obtain operate in a more realistic-ish fashion where applicable (obviously stuff like Hover Boots can't really be addressed since nothing like that exists in our world). Just a few stuff off to the side. I still want to be able to swing a ball and chain around for 10 minutes without getting tired if I feel like it.

Story - I'm against a "mature" story in Zelda games. I'm all for making very emotional parts in the game that really reach out to the player, but I have no interest in indulging in the ultrarealistic stories that far too many games nowadays delve into. It seems like it's infecting the purity of Zelda to indulge in stuff like blood, ultraviolence, sexuality, grim & grit, and the like. What I am a fan of, though, is pushing the boundaries as far as what topics are addressed. MM did a really good job of this in its dealings with death, the afterlife, the end of the world, and the futility of our actions. SS, IMO, did a really good job of handling fate, destiny, and those who would choose to deny it. I want to see more stuff like this pop up. Like I've said in a similar post, if the blood & guts & other stuff serves to complement these heavier themes then I'm less likely to be dissuaded by it; I just don't think they're really necessary in Zelda games.

Presentation - Nope, definitely not. I absolutely adore SS's impressionism, and with a few tweaks to smooth out some technical details I would like to see this style used again in a future Zelda game. It was very whimsical without feeling childish, and it allowed for some very emotional parts as well. (SPOILERS I cried like a little girl when Zelda sealed herself away and when Impa died at the end, ok I admit it!!!) We've already seen quite a few games use the WW cel-shading, so I think it's safe to say we don't need more of that. I really feel Zelda looks the most iconic when it used OoT's anime-inspired art style and SS's impressionism. I want to look at it and go "That is unquestionably Zelda right there" instead of "It's an ultra-realistic game that has the word Zelda in its title".

 

[ZeldafreakCJM]

Hmm...

Realistic physics seem kinda pointless in a video game that is based in a fictional world, and I don't really have a problem with the way Zelda has its stories structured. Which only leaves the presentation; and that is a big no from me as I prefer artistic non-realistic styles over realistic and grainy styles...:hmm:. So going by what you listed I don't think realism has a place in Zelda, plus as a side-note I prefer my game developers focus on how fun the game is than how realistic its style is or spending tons on money on over-the-top realistic physics...

 

[Azure Sage]

As far as realism in the game's physics go, I'm all for it. It makes me think of the physics in the Prince of Persia games. I really liked those. It made the game a lot more challenging and interesting. The game felt more grounded in reality that way. I'd absolutely love to see that in a Zelda game.

As far as the story goes, I'm not entirely sure. I kinda like the way it's set up as it is. Although, I am open to it. I certainly wouldn't knock it until I've tried it. However, I don't think it should be nerfed. The legend is basically what Zelda is all about. If you tone that down, the whole story will feel toned down. At least, I think it would. It's kind of a tricky subject...

As far as presentation goes, dear lord no. Please, never again. I absolutely detest Twilight Princess's art style and graphics style. I never ever want to see anything that horrendous again. I much prefer The Wind Waker's cel-shaded style and Skyward Sword's impressionistic style.

 

[JuicieJ]

As far as presentation goes, dear lord no. Please, never again. I absolutely detest Twilight Princess's art style and graphics style. I never ever want to see anything that horrendous again. I much prefer The Wind Waker's cel-shaded style and Skyward Sword's impressionistic style.

Twilight Princess's art style wasn't realism. Its textures were realistic, but the character models were designed to resemble anime and the colors were always dark and plain. Realism doesn't have unrealistic facial features and dreary colors, but, well, normal-looking faces and vibrant colors alongside of darker ones. I agree that Zelda shouldn't go this route due to its fantasy roots, but you're not thinking anywhere along the lines of realism with Twilight Princess.

 

[HyruleHistory10]

I thought that TP graphics were a great thing to do for Zelda. but as for other realism...

if you do physics link wouldnt beable to draw a sword (due to the physical impossibility of the length of a sword and human arm) from his back thus he would have to have it at his side which would hindering is rolling. so i say a no

story i think is going great for fantasy. i Do think that the pressure of the actions of the villians should be felt more. Like in Golden Sun Dark Dawn it was not gruesome or bloody or overly violent but at a point in the game darkness fall and beast attack from the shadows and a large amount of the populace is killed. it doesnt have to be graphic but make it so you can really feel what is going on.

graphics i thought TP was great and SS better lol so i dont really care.

 

[Shadsie]

Twilight Princess uses what is called the "Real is Brown" trope - but it isn't actually realistic.

A subdued color-palatte that includes a lot of brown, sepia and generally softened colors is something that filmakers, animators and gamemakers use to convey a mood. The aesthetic is used to convey a sense of sadness, nostalgia, grit or general "seriousness." It's almost like filming a movie in black and white for artistic purposes even though there are other options available. When you look at the real world, it's much more colorful than what a lot of "grit brown" and "subdued color" visual media has.

Not that I dislike it. One of my favorite animes is "Haibane Renmei," which very purposefully uses a subdued palette to convey the pastoral nature of the story's setting and for mood-setting to an emotional story.

I think the "subdued color" works for Twilight Princess because a stab at a "sadness, seriousness and grit" over previous Zelda games were what they were trying for.

But, as I said, I'd rather see something more like Skyward Sword again - I think a feeling of "unreality" and, more than that, whimsy is important to the games - all of the games have their darkness, and all of the games have their humor and whimsy (including TP), and, in the end, a vibrant, "unreal" color palette works for it, I think. It worked well in Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask, too - a combination of texturing with color.

 

[misskitten]

I reject reality - and then replace it with my own. That is basically my relationship with reality. I view games, alongside movies, shows, etc. as means to escape reality. But... to answer your specific questions - here goes:

I personally think my enjoyment would go way down if Link suddenly were to be bound by the laws of realistic physics. I get that there are games that make this work, but I personally think adding this kind of limitation would destroy the enjoyment of the fantastic world that is Hyrule. I might as well just go on a scavenger hunt in my own neighborhood.

As for a realistic story - I spend my real life in a world without magic, without fantastic creatures, why would I want to immerse myself in a fictional world that basically mirrors that? Even in the more "realistic" type games I play have its share of magic. I just wouldn't enjoy a Zelda that tried to be "real".

As for graphics - the only thing I really care about is if it looks good. I love details and colors. My issue with Wind Waker's graphics are not how unrealistic things look, it's the minimalist approach on the details that irks me. I however enjoy both the Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword approach on graphics - one is more "realistic" the other more "toony", but they are both gorgeous and full of details.

Would I choose realistic graphics in order to not have to go realistic on physics and story? In a heartbeat. But if I were to choose any element in the Zelda games to be "realistic" it would be the characterisation - because that is the only thing I believe the real world does well. There are many fantastic and colorful personalities in the real world - despite being outnumbered by the mindnumbingly boring automatons. I like well-structured characters, where there is a backstory/explanation for why someone act the way they do - and where they stay true to themselves.