More Than One Ganon

[ChargewithSword]

For many years we in the Zelda community have always known Link and Zelda as being reincarnations of previous counterparts but only very few people I have known believe that there is more than one Ganon. I find this untrue as Ganon and Ganondorf have been different in multiple games, but I do not believe it is possible to one Ganon to have that many different backstories after dieing so much.
I believe I have proof to there being at least four different Ganons in our timeline.

This was the first big bubba we were introduced to. His back story is as follows: MANY YEARS AGO PRINCE DARKNESS "GANON" STOLE ONE OF THE TRIFORCE WITH POWER. PRINCESS ZELDA HAD ONE OF THE TRIFORCE WITH WISDOM. SHE DIVIDED IT INTO 8 UNITS TO HIDE IT FROM "GANNON" BEFORE SHE WAS CAPTURED. GO FIND THE "8" UNITS "LINK" TO SAVE HER.

We cannot state that this is a completely different Ganon yet but when I show you the other four you might see.

This Ganon's backstory starts off with him being the Gerudo thief Ganondorf Dragmire, he leads an expidition to the Sacred Realm and eventually turns it into the dark realm while turning into Ganon.
The difference between this guy and the last Ganon lies in what they are doing. One Ganon has kidnapped Zelda and wants to take over Hyrule using the last triforce. This Ganon however already has three pieces of the Triforce and only wants to return to the light world.
The other difference lies in their deaths. They are both dead by the end of their games and no mention is made to how they were supposedly resurrected. So already we have two different Ganons.

Ah, our beloved long nose. How many have played your game and should already know the story behind it? Everyone, but I'll say your (shorter) story however.

Ganondorf was a Gerudo theif who stole the Triforce. He then became the king of evil but then in the future Link had managed to seal up Ganon in the sacred realm, but not killing him. This is where our big nosed friend splits in two timelines. In both timelines though, he dies once more.

Then there is this guy, he basically had the same origin as Ganondorf in Alttp had. He basically got an item of power, became Ganon and then went to fight Link. Eventually he was sealed away (I am not sure where), but not killed.

So there you have it. There have been a total of Four Ganons whom we have officially fought in the Zelda games. (I am not including the Oracle Ganon though because he was resurrected, and from which Ganon he was resurrected from, I do not know.)

 

[Erimgard]

I'm gonna disagree here.
First of all "PRINCE DARKNESS" and "Dragmire" were both made up by Nintendo of America. They are not canon.

Ganon has had many random titles throughout the series, but he always holds the title of "Maou" or Demon King (usually translated to Evil King by NoA).

We know that the Ganon in Ocarina of Time is the same as the one in Wind Waker and Twilight Princess.
The Ganon in FSA looks and acts quite similar to the one in aLttP, and the continuity between the games works pretty well, suggesting they are the same.

When Ganondorf in FSA picks up the Trident, it transforms him into the "King of Darkness", the same title that aLttP and Oracles Ganon have. He's not called this in any other game, and these are the three games where he has the Trident. This suggests that Ganon+Trident=King of Darkness, making them all the same Ganon.

So we have OoT/WW/TP Ganon, and OoX/FSA/aLttP Ganon (these are in terms of release date, not necessarily timeline connection). That leaves only LoZ Ganon in question.

Given that LoZ/AoL ends with the Triforce completed and sitting in a Hyrulean Castle, with Ganon's minions having failed to resurrect him, it makes sense for the Oracle Games to follow them. Reason being, the Oracle games each beign with the Triforce complete in Hyrule Castle, and Ganon's minions hatching a new plan to bring him back from the dead.

Throughout most of the game, Ganon is not called the "King of Darkness", but just the "Evil King" (demon king). It's not until he is resurrected that he's called the King of Darkness.

Now, I'm not saying this is by any means concrete, but to me, this suggests that LoZ Ganon is the same as OoX/FSA/aLttP Ganon, and that his resurrection (Twinrova states that they are resurrecting him from his "wandering in the darkness") is what added the "Darkness" to his title. Ganon, of course, dies in OoX. The new Ganondorf in FSA takes the trident (which is stated to hold the power of darkness, and to have the power to turn whoever touches it into the King of Darkness) and is taken over by the old Ganon's spirit, becoming the King of Darkness.

Thus, LoZ/OoX/FSA/aLttP share a Ganon
OoT/WW/TP share a Ganon

It's been said that Aonuma claims there is only one Ganon, but no one can seem to find a quote for it. If it's true, than that would mean all Ganon's have at least the same spirit (though FSA seems to imply strongly there are different bodies) with various resurrections in between.

 

[Locke]

Yeah, there are definately two Ganondorfs and at most two Ganons. Though I currently disagree with Erim about LoZ's Ganon, that would change if I end up switching to a full AT. That Aonuma quote sounds interesting, and I thought I had read it before but didn't pay much attention to it because I didn't believe in one Ganon at the time. Unfortunately, a half-hour Google search turned up no results, so I'm still unsure of exactly how many Ganons there are.

 

[ChargewithSword]

I'm gonna disagree here.
First of all "PRINCE DARKNESS" and "Dragmire" were both made up by Nintendo of America. They are not canon.

I know that. I just like using those titles.

Ganon has had many random titles throughout the series, but he always holds the title of "Maou" or Demon King (usually translated to Evil King by NoA).

We know that the Ganon in Ocarina of Time is the same as the one in Wind Waker and Twilight Princess.
The Ganon in FSA looks and acts quite similar to the one in aLttP, and the continuity between the games works pretty well, suggesting they are the same.

Suggesting; but how do you explain Ganon's defeat? He was imprisoned in the Four Sword during the final battle against Ganon. Where did he go? Unless my Palace of the Four Sword theory is correct and Ganon was sealed in the Sacred Realm along with the Four Sword.

When Ganondorf in FSA picks up the Trident, it transforms him into the "King of Darkness", the same title that aLttP and Oracles Ganon have. He's not called this in any other game, and these are the three games where he has the Trident. This suggests that Ganon+Trident=King of Darkness, making them all the same Ganon.

So we have OoT/WW/TP Ganon, and OoX/FSA/aLttP Ganon (these are in terms of release date, not necessarily timeline connection). That leaves only LoZ Ganon in question.

A title is a title though I will give you that the importance of the Trident cannot be ignored as far as it's influence has been.

Given that LoZ/AoL ends with the Triforce completed and sitting in a Hyrulean Castle, with Ganon's minions having failed to resurrect him, it makes sense for the Oracle Games to follow them. Reason being, the Oracle games each beign with the Triforce complete in Hyrule Castle, and Ganon's minions hatching a new plan to bring him back from the dead.

Throughout most of the game, Ganon is not called the "King of Darkness", but just the "Evil King" (demon king). It's not until he is resurrected that he's called the King of Darkness.

Now, I'm not saying this is by any means concrete, but to me, this suggests that LoZ Ganon is the same as OoX/FSA/aLttP Ganon, and that his resurrection (Twinrova states that they are resurrecting him from his "wandering in the darkness") is what added the "Darkness" to his title. Ganon, of course, dies in OoX. The new Ganondorf in FSA takes the trident (which is stated to hold the power of darkness, and to have the power to turn whoever touches it into the King of Darkness) and is taken over by the old Ganon's spirit, becoming the King of Darkness.

Thus, LoZ/OoX/FSA/aLttP share a Ganon
OoT/WW/TP share a Ganon

The Oracle games however have only one game to follow for this resurrection to make sense. If you go back to your trident theory you'll find that LOZ Ganon had no trident. (The BS sprite I used was just to make it look cool.)
In the Oracle games it is stated that Ganon is part of the Gerudos (his symbol is even plastered around.) As you recall, the story of the Gerudo's with Ganon is only ever featured in FSA. However in LOZ, no reference of Ganon ever being part of Gerudos is made. In Alttp it is at least suggested that Ganon was a thief which he was in FSA. Though those are only strings, they are better than no strings.
---
Once again, a title is only a title but then again we have all grasped at strings once and pulled something out.

It's been said that Aonuma claims there is only one Ganon, but no one can seem to find a quote for it. If it's true, than that would mean all Ganon's have at least the same spirit (though FSA seems to imply strongly there are different bodies) with various resurrections in between.

I'd really like to see that quote as well. We can say that though there are different Ganons, that they function the same as Link and Zelda but are reincarnated less often. However I do get where you are coming from and am at least willing to suggest that there are three Ganons at least.

 

[DeletedUser9]

I have acknowledged the possibility of there being more than one Ganon before. My theory is that you can have Ganondorf, and then on the Adult Timeline, after New Hyrule is formed, Malladus the "Demon King" (same title Ganon holds in most of the early games) appears. A separate character who is also Ganon. Afterwards, games such as LoZ, AoL, and maybe ALttP take place.

Either way, my theory would suggest that there are only two Ganons. And I think saying there are any more is just conjecture without much if any proof (my theory is the same, actually). Frankly, the concept of Ganon dying is useless in regards to using it as proof of anything. Like villains in some other stories, Ganon is killed and revived up the wazoo. You cannot assume that Ganon in LoZ is different from Ganon in ALttP just because of deaths.

Additionally, mild inconsistencies in the backstories can fairly be overlooked, considering it is impossible to connect the timeline without ignoring some of these. The games obviously were not designed to fit together perfectly, so in order to make any kind of logical connection between them, either in timeline or otherwise, you're going to have to ignore a few things.

Anyway, I feel strongly that at the very least Ganondorf in OoT and Ganon in ALttP are one in the same. Their backstories connect almost flawlessly. Especially when you consider that Ganondorf is banished into the Sacred Realm at the end of OoT. I also believe that LoZ Ganon is the same because of death/revival stuff I mentioned before. As for FSA Ganon, I couldn't say. I'm not even sure it's appropriate to call FS and FSA canonical, so I won't get into that.

 

[Pinecove]

The new Ganondorf in FSA takes the trident (which is stated to hold the power of darkness, and to have the power to turn whoever touches it into the King of Darkness) and is taken over by the old Ganon's spirit, becoming the King of Darkness.

Erim I expected better of you. "Power of darkness" is exactly what it says. No soul comes from it; only evil powers.

It's been said that Aonuma claims there is only one Ganon, but no one can seem to find a quote for it. If it's true, than that would mean all Ganon's have at least the same spirit (though FSA seems to imply strongly there are different bodies) with various resurrections in between.

Although the quote in question can not be found, I remember it came out in 2003, BEFORE FSA came out.

Suggesting; but how do you explain Ganon's defeat? He was imprisoned in the Four Sword during the final battle against Ganon. Where did he go? Unless my Palace of the Four Sword theory is correct and Ganon was sealed in the Sacred Realm along with the Four Sword.

That's the common assumption yes.

A title is a title

Yes, however Ganon's title is different.

He is a maou only when in control of a mazoku (group of minions) and has a makai (a demon world)
He is a Yami no maou only when holding the Trident of Darkness and/or in control of a world FULL of darkness (such as OoX where Ganon is trying to spread the "Sekai no Yami" (world's darkness) or FSA where Ganon is spreading darkness into Hyrule everywhere through the Trident the moon gate world and the barriers and finally ALttP where his world IS darkness.)

 

[Retro Ganon]

"Power of darkness" is exactly what it says. No soul comes from it; only evil powers.

I'm kind of new at this, but I try to do my homework... yet this is confusing to me. Wouldn't the original source of who's power (or who put the power there) is contained within the trident be important when looking at how it caused a rebirth of Ganon? Let alone carry over noticeable characteristics and actions of Ganon which can be associated with OoT and ALttP's incarnation? Maybe I'm misunderstanding Zelda's recollection of his name in Hyrulian history near the end of FSA...

With that said, I believe there is one and the same Ganon throughout the series, but with the exception of two different human incarnation. Though, I do support OoT/TP/TWW Ganon and Ganondorf being one in the same. Its FSA which gets tricky. OoX and LoZ/AoL Ganondorf host is unclear whether it is/was OoT/TP/TWW Ganon/dorf or the FSA Ganon which is born through a new human host.

 

[Retro Ganon]

I'm bumping this thread because I need Pinecove's reply. I cant address another point in a different thread without things becoming similar debates going on at once.

Sorry for the double post. I just didn't want this to get buried.

Thanks in advance to Pinecove!!!

 

[Pinecove]

I'm kind of new at this, but I try to do my homework... yet this is confusing to me. Wouldn't the original source of who's power (or who put the power there) is contained within the trident be important when looking at how it caused a rebirth of Ganon? Let alone carry over noticeable characteristics and actions of Ganon which can be associated with OoT and ALttP's incarnation? Maybe I'm misunderstanding Zelda's recollection of his name in Hyrulian history near the end of FSA...

These are the translations we've gotten on the very controversial trident:

世界が欲しいか　力が欲しいか
Seek you the world? Seek you power?
Seek...you...the world? Seek you...power?

退屈な平和だと　その魂が渇くならば
If peace is boring, if that soul thirsts
Does your...soul...despise peace and...thirst for...more?

破壊と征服をと　その魂が叫ぶならば
If that soul cries for destruction and conquest
Does your soul...cry...for...destruction and...conquest?

お前に授けるよう　世界を亡ぼす　闇の力
You are granted, in order to ruin the world, the power of darkness
We...grant you...power to...ruin...the world. The power of...darkness.

欲望に溺れ　凡てを欲しがれ
Drown in desire and desire everything

- - -

暗黒から産み落とされし　魔のじゃき　トライデント
Born from darkness, the demon's evil device, the trident
Evil...spirit of magic trident.

お前は　闇の王
You are the King of Darkness
You are…the…King of Darkness.

？！大きな石に文字が…。…とても古い言葉ですが…なんとか読んでみましょう。…　…　…セカイ　ガ　ホシイ　カチカラ　ガ　ホシイ　カタイクツ　ナ　ヘイワ　ダトソノ　タマシイ　ガカワク　ナラバハカイ　ト　セイフク　ヲトソノ　タマシイ　ガサケブ　ナラバオマエ　ニ　サズケ　ヨウセカイ　ヲ　ホロボスヤミ　ノ　チカラヨクボウ　ニ　オボレスベテ　ヲ　ホシガレアンコク　カラ　ウミオトサレシマ　ノ　ジャキ　トライデントオマエ　ハヤミ　ノ　オウ
Hm? That writing on those large rocks... It's in an ancient tongue... Let's see if I can read it. ... ... ... Seek...you...the world? Seek you...power? Does your...soul...despise peace and...thirst for...more? Does your soul...cry...for...destruction and...conquest? We...grant you...power to...ruin...the world. The power of...darkness. Evil...spirit of magic trident. You are...the... King of Darknes

"... ... ...Do you want... the world? Do you want...power?
When the peace becomes routine... and if your soul thirsts
You would be granted... a world to destroy
The power of darkness...drowns in hunger
...and covets everything
The underworld has given birth ...to the evil TRIDENT
You... are the king of darkness"

And here's the end of the game:

ガノン…。この魔獣が　ゲルド族…、人間だった　ガノンドロフだというの…！
Ganon… This demon beast was of the Gerudo tribe…, it was human and called Ganondorf…!
Ganon… this beast was once of the Gerudo... Once human. He was called Ganondorf!

闇の王…　太古から　よみがえった　魔の邪器（じゃき）、トライデントを手にした男！！
King of Darkness… The man who took the Trident, the demon's evil device (ja-ki) revived from ancient times!!
King of Darkness, ancient demon reborn. The wielder of the trident!!

As you can see, there is no soul in the Trident, and it isn't Ganondorf but the Trident itself which was revived from ancient times.

With that said, I believe there is one and the same Ganon throughout the series, but with the exception of two different human incarnation. Though, I do support OoT/TP/TWW Ganon and Ganondorf being one in the same. Its FSA which gets tricky. OoX and LoZ/AoL Ganondorf host is unclear whether it is/was OoT/TP/TWW Ganon/dorf or the FSA Ganon which is born through a new human host.

With all that the FSA translations have shown us I highly doubt there's one Ganon. There are most likely 2 of them.

OoX Ganon is most likely FSA Ganon as he's revived with the Trident.

LoZ Ganon is most likely FSA too as HE has a Trident.

 

[Retro Ganon]

Well, this is all really interesting. I might have to concede this point because with two Ganon's in the series, and no connection between the two (unless the trident is... minding you said it contains no soul attachment, but a power), then I'm really at a lost with trying to build a timeline in my mind.

 

[Flute Boy]

well, i must disagree, but its opinion on how the timelline goes, my timeline goes oot, then totally branches out into the different series we know today...

 

[Retro Ganon]

My knowledge of the Zelda Universe canon is limited, and I have yet to really seriously consider a timeline. All I know is that, based on what I have looked into over at ZI, the major things that affect the timeline are the state of Ganon, the Triforce, Royal Family, Sages/maidens, etc. And if there are two Ganon's in the series, which are void of any connection to each other (thus ultimately affects connections between the other major categories revolving around the SW) then their really isn't a reason to believe the 2D games fall with the 3D titles' timeline anymore.

FSA possibly breaks the bridge between ALttP and OoT, based on what I have been debating with Pinecove in other threads.

 

[Pinecove]

The Bridge between OoT and ALttP was possibly never direct. The Miyamotto order screwed up as it was provided room between OoT and ALttP by inserting LoZ into the middle. But let's not talk about original intent here.
This is the basic for your timeline:

/TWW/PH-ST
OoT
\MM-TP

Then you insert Arcs into it:

LoZ/AoL
OoS/OoA(/LA)
TMC-FS/FSA
ALttP(/LA)

Have fun.

 

[Retro Ganon]

Well this wasn't fruitful. Guess there is no point in discussing this further based on the other similar threads.


Developers suck! XD

 

[jakesuhr]

I think that each game is just what it is said it is in the title...a Legend. That means each game could just be a different variation of some truth and that all the Links, Zeldas and Ganons/Ganondorfs are all based on one of each of those people. Sometimes the stories kinda link together but they are all just "Legends" meaning they probably were just us seeing at first hand the story someone is telling someone else and either one of all of those legends is what really happened or none of them actually happened but are all based on a story that is ancient.