Mafia 5: Arkham City

[Jimmy]

If Jo is Mafia, I'd say the first few that defended her are Mafia as well.

No way. If Jo is mafia she would not let the other mafia use such a dangerous and obvious tactic.

I knew that was there, but hadn't really thought it applicable, so considered it useless information. Now that Axle brings up the fact that you do indeed fall under that branch, I figured that he was right, so backed out. I had already said that, by the way. Backing out I don't think should be a good reason to think someone Mafia, unless they didn't back out with good reason.

The page you linked to had some interesting points, but because of the WIFOM principle most of them could be turned on their head. And remember players such as Jo are clever enough to turn to the game on their head.

I have no idea why you'd ever bring this up unless you were trying to gain trust. You're in the middle of a fight, so obviously gaining trust would be the thing to do, but what I've seen you do in this post was something that Master Kokiri 9 so imfamously did in the last game (? Last game I was in) where he used his previous Serial Killer status and strategies to gain our trust, then when he proved to be right, we followed him right until the end. You're doing something of that nature, albeit much more subtle here.

I've heard Bay mention her degree several times before. Apparently in one Mafia game her predictions at the start of the game turned out to be 75% correct, and when she was Godmother she was able to predict most of the Townie roles as well. She is a very dangerous player indeed, and she is merely mentioning that fact once again, which is in tune with her regular playing style. I find your appraisal of her to be a bit unconsidered. Of course she could be mafia, but at this stage so could anyone.

 

[Baysiderulez]

MK9 did if fabulously and only failed due to a compulsive kill by the Vigilante. You seem to be at the beginning of doing the same thing, Jo.

He actually quite failed on that tactic... If the vigilante hadn't been following the list of suspicions I had made in Game 2. MK9 would have still been trekking around. I believe I had brought strong evidence against him in that game early on. Right after he framed Atsuma (on Day 2 I believe). Fabulously definitly would not be the word I would use for Townie Ignorance, much like I see displayed in the post above.

If people defend me but I still die... and I WILL flip town, there's no doubt about that. What will you think about the people who defended me? Will you go after them, or will they appear to be smart assets to the town and you will keep them around... The only people who currently have information about who is mafia and who is not... Is the Mafia. They know I'm, innocent. So why not protect me if it seems like a lost cause? Kyby did it in Mafia 2. I did it in Mafia 3. I have to say it was a working strategy in both games.

 

[Meego]

No way. If Jo is mafia she would not let the other mafia use such a dangerous and obvious tactic.



The page you linked to had some interesting points, but because of the WIFOM principle most of them could be turned on their head. And remember players such as Jo are clever enough to turn to the game on their head.



I've heard Bay mention her degree several times before. Apparently in one Mafia game her predictions at the start of the game turned out to be 75% correct, and when she was Godmother she was able to predict most of the Townie roles as well. She is a very dangerous player indeed, and she is merely mentioning that fact once again, which is in tune with her regular playing style. I find your appraisal of her to be a bit unconsidered. Of course she could be mafia, but at this stage so could anyone.

I agree here, Jo is dangerous to whatever side she is against. She is a high ability player and like jdenicholls said, she would not let fellow mafia use such a dangerous tactic such as defending her. It would be too obvious. Nothing so far is standing out as overly suspicious behavior so far. At this stage anyone could be anyone.

 

[kokirion]

what I think about the Jo/Zenox case.

Jo, aeger to lynch scum is (like Axle already said) not a scumtell, that's actually more a towntell. And I don't think many persons will use it as a meta because a lot of people still think it's scummie. I don't really see any profit in such a meta.
Zenox reaction to Jo's IGMEOY was just an OMGUS. No real evidence, or anything that was handy, no it's obvious that this was an attack to defend yourself. OMGUS is not always scummie, because a lot of people use it as a defence, but it's not a good accusation. Any accusation based on a OMGUS-reaction is useless.

In Jo's IGMEOY on Zenox and TheGreen she said "It's too early to tell". With this you are actually saying, "I want to point out that they are suspicious, but I don't suspect them at all" that's a little bit hypocrite. If you quickly read a post like that, it's easy to conclude to keep an eye on them, while Jo can stay neutral. Are you encouraging others to accuse them (accuse... maybe suspect is a better word..) for you? Easy, you gave the suggestion of a wagon to anyone who would take it over from you. You start it, someone else will finish it... kind off scummie I think, esspessialy because I know a tactic like this is very Jo'ish.

But there is one thing about Jo that seems very townish to me... she accused multiple persons. That sounds like a very lame reason, but I know Jo most often (when she is scum) hunts for specific persons. She accused very early, what is quite risky because she will get a lot of attantion, and not only one but multiple persons instead of focussing on one specific person. This playstile seems very townish to me, and over all, together with the other things, I don't think Jo is scum. The only thing that is scummie about her is one little sentence: "It's too early to tell". Could be scum, but one little sentence in the beginning of the game is not really "breaking evidence", I suspect she just tried to be a little bit carefull

 

[Kirino]

No way. If Jo is mafia she would not let the other mafia use such a dangerous and obvious tactic.

But maybe she would know that people would know she was experienced and use that against the townies by doing inexperienced Mafia things to try and make herself not suspicious? Just something to think about...

 

[Jimmy]

But maybe she would know that people would know she was experienced and use that against the townies by doing inexperienced Mafia things to try and make herself not suspicious? Just something to think about...

As with all Mafia arguments, you can get circular about it. But my money is that she wouldn't do it.

Jo, eager to lynch scum is (like Axle already said) not a scumtell, that's actually more a towntell.

It's not a towntell. It's not really a scumtell either. Someone posting "let's hunt some scum" can both be the sign of a new, enthusiastic player or a mafia member trying to blend in as one. You'll notice the likes of Axle, Bay or Keyshe didn't bother with such a post because they are experienced players.

If people defend me but I still die... and I WILL flip town, there's no doubt about that. What will you think about the people who defended me? Will you go after them, or will they appear to be smart assets to the town and you will keep them around... The only people who currently have information about who is mafia and who is not... Is the Mafia. They know I'm, innocent. So why not protect me if it seems like a lost cause? Kyby did it in Mafia 2. I did it in Mafia 3. I have to say it was a working strategy in both games.

Impressive as this paragraph is Jo, it says very little. You claiming to flip town is meaningless because if you were mafia you aren't likely to say so are you? The only role I don't suspect you of at this point is that of the Town Hero, since you aren't playing suicidally this round . I don't really understand what you meant by the lines in bold though, could someone elaborate?

 

[DeletedUser9]

Also: Why is everyone defending Jo? Is it just 'cause she doesn't troll?

Probably because the accusation against her (Zenox's initial one, not the ones that followed) were made of absolutely nothing. Insubstantial to the extreme. The same could be said of Jo's post about Zenox and yourself, though, as I already said. I'm basically watching both of them now.

I mean I know i'm Innocent, wouldn't it be wise of the mafia to protect me? In my death it would make them appear clean. The same tactic I used in Mafia 3 when I was the godmother... Just something to think about.

Probably. Thing is that reasoning fluctuates between being a wise move and an incredibly newbie move as it could reveal the inside info that the Mafia have. At the same time, there's an entirely different reason for doing so. While I've seen Mafia kill off experienced players since they're more dangerous, I think it's also a wise move to preserve these players because, if the Mafia are skilled enough to avoid their suspicion, they will lead the town against other townies. Then there's yet another reason, somewhere between the two, in which the Mafia want to kill off experienced players but cannot do so because they are composed either partially or completed OF experienced players.

So yeah, I think it's possible, but at the same time I think that if it's true, then we're probably dealing with a less experienced Mafia, or at least an experienced one working with a Wine In Front of Me cover.

I'm probably jumping the gun here, and I wouldn't have considered it suspicious had they not responded so quickly. What I think it is is that Jo is Mafia, being a really experienced player, they don't want to lose her, so the fellow Mafia came in and defended. Naturally, townies probably jumped into the bandwagon, but that's what they want. If Jo is Mafia, I'd say the first few that defended her are Mafia as well.

Possible, but that wouldn't seem like something I think Jo would let her fellow Mafia do, unless, being the first day, she didn't have time OR, as mentioned above, she was trying to take advantage of a Wine In Front of Me trick.

 

[Baysiderulez]

Impressive as this paragraph is Jo, it says very little. You claiming to flip town is meaningless because if you were mafia you aren't likely to say so are you? The only role I don't suspect you of at this point is that of the Town Hero, since you aren't playing suicidally this round . I don't really understand what you meant by the lines in bold though, could someone elaborate?

Last sentence summarizes why those 3 are protecting me. I thought that was quite obvious...
Jden, lets say you are scum, and you know for a fact that I am not scum. Wouldn't it be wise to defend me during the day. To make you appear like you are protector of all things good in humanity? I am clearly not a person that needs others to defend me, as I am experienced enough to know how to properly defend myself. Why would 3 other people come to my rescue.

Simple. I think they are scum. If I died... and those 3 defended me. It would place them in the clear, why you guys went after those who voted for my lynching. It is the same tactic (as I've now said twice) that Kybyrian used in game 2 when he was the godfather (he protected me from all harm, warded off suspicion and when I was lynched it made him appear clean), and the tactic I used in Mafia 3 when I was the godmother (I was an avid defender of Linksbro, and every other townie that the town attempted to Lynch). It has proven to work, in game after game, because our minds aren't programed to think that those who may defend the innocent can be scum. Just like some of the greatest "scum hunters' can be mafia, even if they successfully give up one of their own to help us (hence MK9's tactic in Mafia 2 that ultimately gave him away to me). These activities give us something called pseudo-trust. We trust them because they have led us in the right direction, but they are only doing so to confuse us, and ultimately betray us.

Now if that doesn't make sense, then I must give up explaining, because I lack the words to simplify it anymore. If I die, I will flip town. You can choose to trust that statement or you can choose to decide I am lying. A time will come when you know all I've said is true. It is my meta to only tell the truth in these games.

 

[DeletedUser9]

EBWODP:

Possible, but that wouldn't seem like something I think Jo would let her fellow Mafia do, unless, being the first day, she didn't have time OR, as mentioned above, she was trying to take advantage of a Wine In Front of Me trick.

*wouldn't

Part in bold was a mistake.

EBWODP:
Damn it, Jo, you messed up my last EBWODP.

 

[Baysiderulez]

Curse you too Axle. I didnt see your post before my last... anywho to acknowledge this.

Probably. Thing is that reasoning fluctuates between being a wise move and an incredibly newbie move as it could reveal the inside info that the Mafia have. At the same time, there's an entirely different reason for doing so. While I've seen Mafia kill off experienced players since they're more dangerous, I think it's also a wise move to preserve these players because, if the Mafia are skilled enough to avoid their suspicion, they will lead the town against other townies. Then there's yet another reason, somewhere between the two, in which the Mafia want to kill off experienced players but cannot do so because they are composed either partially or completed OF experienced players.

So yeah, I think it's possible, but at the same time I think that if it's true, then we're probably dealing with a less experienced Mafia, or at least an experienced one working with a Wine In Front of Me cover.

While I've heard of WIFoM, I don't quite understand it, and from what I do know of it, I know its difficult to pull off successfully unless you absolutely know what you are doing.

I don't quite understand what you mean about the "inside info the mafia have" unless you mean the knowledge of who is scum and who is town. And I'm still tempted to go with the way our brains are programed. if someone supports a town we think they have to be town, if someone supports a mafia we think they have a scummy agenda whether they know better or not. The only people who have any knowledge currently is the mafia. So we are left looking for suspicious comments and slip ups.

I think they have already slipped up. By defending me. I also might have a distorted view of what warrants a title of "slip up"

 

[DeletedUser9]

If I die, I will flip town. You can choose to trust that statement or you can choose to decide I am lying. A time will come when you know all I've said is true. It is my meta to only tell the truth in these games.

Would like to remind everyone that despite Jo's consistent claiming (in several games) that she never lies, that's a statement that cannot be trusted. The second you decide to trust her is the second she has complete power over the game, and can then change her meta and do basically whatever she wants. I don't know if that's something she would do or not, but I never intend to chance it.

Bottom line is her claiming she never lies means nothing, especially when you consider that twisting of facts does not "count" as lying to some. She can still dodge and deceive without "lying".

While I've heard of WIFoM, I don't quite understand it, and from what I do know of it, I know its difficult to pull off successfully unless you absolutely know what you are doing.

To how I understand WIFoM, it's exactly what I described in the Mafia Beginner's Guide about theorizing being circular; the Mafia will do certain things, but they are also aware that people know they do certain things, so you have to figure out is it the kind of person who would do Mafia things or non-Mafia things if they were Mafia? And yes, if someone was taking advantage of it in a major way, they are probably very experienced. Otherwise they're simply choosing to act one way or the other. I'm simply listing possibilities.

I don't quite understand what you mean about the "inside info the mafia have" unless you mean the knowledge of who is scum and who is town. And I'm still tempted to go with the way our brains are programed. if someone supports a town we think they have to be town, if someone supports a mafia we think they have a scummy agenda whether they know better or not. The only people who have any knowledge currently is the mafia. So we are left looking for suspicious comments and slip ups.

That's exactly what I meant, yeah.

Whether they're trying to take advantage of the "way our brains are programmed" or not is irrelevant. I still think it's a fairly (not entirely) newbie move, again unless we're talking about a WIFoM issue. Mainly because, while it might seem alien to accuse them, it's still kind of obvious and an experienced player would spot it quickly.

 

[Baysiderulez]

unless all the experienced players are mafia... or dead. Hence why that tactic worked especially well in games 2 and 3.

I still stand by my suspicions of DracoMajora, Illimatic, and Hero of Music.

Why defend me? EXPLAIN YOURSELVES!

 

[Jimmy]

Now if that doesn't make sense, then I must give up explaining, because I lack the words to simplify it anymore. If I die, I will flip town. You can choose to trust that statement or you can choose to decide I am lying. A time will come when you know all I've said is true. It is my meta to only tell the truth in these games.

I understand it perfectly now. The way you phrased it originally just didn't make sense to me for whatever reason, but I get it now. I'm still sceptical because since you are so aware of your meta you always have the option to use it to trick the rest of the town. Sure, you might flip townie if we lynched you, or you might not. I don't have a particular suspicion against you as of yet.

While I've heard of WIFoM, I don't quite understand it, and from what I do know of it, I know its difficult to pull off successfully unless you absolutely know what you are doing.

I believe I have the correct definition. Say you are scum. I believe that you would never encourage all your fellow mafia to defend you in public when someone accuses you, because this would be so obviously scummy. But since you know this, you do it, knowing that because it's such an obviously scummy move I would never suspect you for it. You'd need bravery to pull it off because it could backfire easily.

 

[Baysiderulez]

Out of my many many mafia games I've played... I've only been scum once. So I'm not sure how you can apply a "most often" to a one time occurrence. Day one is a time to gauge people's responses. As Axle mentioned my voice against TheGreen and Zenox were baseless... But it did give me info... Zenox hopped on my back as an accuser. And people came to my rescue...

Why did these people come to my rescue? An interesting development came out of it, no?

EBWODP: Ignore that top section... I mean you can read it, its just sloppy cuz of the stupid missing bracket.

but I know Jo most often (when she is scum) hunts for specific persons.

Out of my many many mafia games I've played... I've only been scum once. So I'm not sure how you can apply a "most often" to a one time occurrence. Day one is a time to gauge people's responses. As Axle mentioned my voice against TheGreen and Zenox were baseless... But it did give me info... Zenox hopped on my back as an accuser. And people came to my rescue...

Why did these people come to my rescue? An interesting development came out of it, no?

 

[Zenox]

Why did these people come to my rescue? An interesting development came out of it, no?

I'm going to back off until that is answered.

Hey, umm ... so, I just realized something. Kybyrian hasn't said anything, and he's usually among the life of the party. Suspicious? Hardly, but worth note.