General Zelda I Find the WM+ to Be a Step in the Wrong Direction.

[Ventus]

It's a tough subject and one that has been discussed and argued to death, on this site alone. On the one hand, it's nice to be in control of your actions and have more precise movements - especially when using the sword in games like Skyward Sword. However, it remains highly controversial, and a lot of people, like me, feel it wasn't all that great and led to the same repetitive problems that were in other Zelda games.

Yup, the battles were repetitious.

plus you have the fact that they are more conveniently placed than on the Wii MotionPlus and Nunchuck. Did I forget that the GamePad is easily more comfortable than using them two controllers with a wire in between?

Firstly, the buttons required for Zelda SS are far more conveniently placed - not to mention SIZED - on the Wii Remote and nunchuck than they would be on the GamePad. Secondly, that's very subjective. I can't hold the GamePad for very long without feeling tired. Same with WM+Nunchuck. :/

You also have the touchscreen, which could allow for multiple ways of controlling the game/player, solving puzzles, maybe use if combat, etc. You also have the Gyroscope which implements that sense of control through motion. To be honest, I'm not that over the moon on what Wii MotionPlus brought, it allowed for more specific movements, but my favorite thing about motion control was the precise aiming etc. the Gyroscope brings this. Then you have the voice commands and maybe even a camera which could play some sort of role if Nintendo so wished.

Voice commands? nope. Mic is barely used on the gamepad. Gyroscope is cool, but due to the nature of the Gamepad's design, it cannot replicate the directional swinging that WM+ brought us. It would be like my fist making a circle, but my leg can't make that same circle due to structure being fundamentally different.

The main reason why the GamePad is the future and why Wii MotionPlus should stay in the past, is the convenience of the controller itself. Like I mentioned, you have multiple forms of control all on one controller and it's surprisingly comfortable. One of the main plusses that the GamePad brings is the second screen, which is used to stop break ups form gameplay to the pause screen. You can have all your maps, items, hud, basically whatever, all on the GamePad screen, meaning that one doesn't have to detract from the experience -- like I said "convenience". This is the future, of course Wii MotionPlus may still be used, but time will always be inferior in my eyes and nothing more than a secondary consol scheme if it is used.

Convenience be damned, I want to play my game on my gamepad. :/

 

[Mercedes]

These are unfair criticisms you're giving. It would be like me saying "goddammit the N64 didn't have HD graphics" well guess what? N64 can't do that. :/

I know the technology's not there, but doesn't mean it can't be missed. And in what way are they unfair? They're just my opinions on stuff I didn't like, and stuff I felt would have added more to the experience for me. If I got effected by things that effected Link's sword-swinging, it would have felt more immersive. Otherwise, I'm still fully aware I'm just flinging a bit of plastic about.

 

[snakeoiltanker]

One of the main plusses that the GamePad brings is the second screen, which is used to stop break ups form gameplay to the pause screen. You can have all your maps, items, hud, basically whatever, all on the GamePad screen, meaning that one doesn't have to detract from the experience

Yeah all this stuff down on the gamepad, meaning one REALLY good thing you didnt mention but was maybe implying and i didnt catch, but with all this information in you lap, it can be taken off the screen! and less junk on the screen like ammo and life indicators is a good thing!

 

[Ventus]

I know the technology's not there, but doesn't mean it can't be missed. And in what way are they unfair? They're just my opinions on stuff I didn't like, and stuff I felt would have added more to the experience for me. If I got effected by things that effected Link's sword-swinging, it would have felt more immersive. Otherwise, I'm still fully aware I'm just flinging a bit of plastic about.

It's unfair because you're asking for something that doesn't exist. It would be like me complaining that we can't travel back in time; we just don't have the technology, so complaining is coming basically from fantasy at that point. Or it would be like me complaining about how my natively defensive shield doesn't have any offensive capabilities. The tech just isn't there! D:

 

[Mercedes]

It's unfair because you're asking for something that doesn't exist. It would be like me complaining that we can't travel back in time; we just don't have the technology, so complaining is coming basically from fantasy at that point. Or it would be like me complaining about how my natively defensive shield doesn't have any offensive capabilities. The tech just isn't there! D:

Why are you so sure the technology doesn't exist? Yes it does. Force feedback exists. We have vibrations in controllers, that was the start of it, we've had <the name of that controller I saw on RPS, a type of light-gun> that has the gun recoil realistically per shot and vibrates in certain points if you get shot to throw off your aim. The technology itself exists, but it's just not advanced enough on the Wii, which I concede. Whereas 'time travel', that technology flat-out does not exist. You're comparing 2 things that aren't the same thing. It's not totally un-realistic and out of the question to want Nintendo to be able to create more appropriate force feedback for better 1:1 sword-fighting, just like they improved the Motion functionality to make it more accurate. It's stupid to think they can create time travel. So, not the same.

Just pointing out something that I felt could have improved the game, more appropriate force-feedback for the player. Because it's an immersion breaker. That's all...

 

[DarkestLink]

Ehhh...not gonna get into this argument. But don't worry, SS didn't do well anyway, so I don't expect them to use M+ again.

 

[JuicieJ]

But don't worry, SS didn't do well anyway, so I don't expect them to use M+ again.

...What? Critical praise, multiple awards, and over 3.5 million sales is not doing well? What the hell kind of universe do you live in?

 

[Ventus]

...What? Critical praise, multiple awards, and over 3.5 million sales is not doing well? What the hell kind of universe do you live in?

3.5 million compared to TP's 6.7 mil and OoT's 7mil? Pretty poor if you ask me. 3.5 million sales is actually pretty great, but there are standards even in the Zelda sphere. SS is also the lowest scoring 3D Zelda, which is saying a bit. Now, most of this is probably due to its release date - at the deathbed of the Wii - but it still did poorly by Zelda standards. Q_Q

 

[Sheikrazy]

I'm a big fan of non-motion controls. It's just my thing. I also find I can only play the motion+ when I'm alone with the door closed. It turns out you actually can look like more of a geek on a videogame system playing Zelda.

 

[Sir Quaffler]

I don't have much to add to this conversation, since JJ and Ventus already have said most of what I was going to say.

But I do like the point V brings up about actual swordplay. I'm not quite as experienced in bouken-fighting as he is, but I've fought in a few fights before. And let me tell you, swordfights are exactly like puzzles. You need to be able to read your opponents and tell where their attacks and defenses are coming from & react accordingly. And very quick-on-your-feet, no time to dilly-dally. SS implemented this very well, considering the technology they were working with. I really felt like I was Link fighting in sword combat with my foes rather than pressing buttons to make a videogame character perform an action. Obviously I'd love for a future game to be able to fully-simulate real sword combats, but we've still got a ways to go before that happens, and I'm happy with what WM+ offers us.

 

[Ventus]

I'm not quite as experienced in bouken-fighting as he his, but I've fought in a few fights before.

I'm not at all experienced; I just watched my dad, my friend, his dad, my older bro, and a bunch of true professionals go at it with bouken. It's great stuff to watch, but still better to actually participate in.

Otherwise I agree with what you said. I am in no way saying that force feedback would be bad, but we just don't have the tech in the WM+ so expecting it is rather...harsh, for lack of better word.

 

[JuicieJ]

3.5 million compared to TP's 6.7 mil and OoT's 7mil? Pretty poor if you ask me. 3.5 million sales is actually pretty great, but there are standards even in the Zelda sphere. SS is also the lowest scoring 3D Zelda, which is saying a bit. Now, most of this is probably due to its release date - at the deathbed of the Wii - but it still did poorly by Zelda standards. Q_Q

Keep in mind that OoT has had many ports and a remake, and TP was a Wii launch title that rode on the bandwagon of "ZOMG, REALISTIC SELDA!!1!ONE", not to mention the motion control bandwagon. SS, on the other hand, came out during the tail end of the Wii's life time long after the bandwagon of motion controls had long faded away, yet still became the fastest-selling Zelda. Had the WM+ been there from the start and SS come out early on in the Wii's lifetime, the sales figures would be much different.

 

[ProtagonistJake]

This is objectively untrue. If you take a gander at Skyward Sword you will notice that Link has eight directions' worth of slashing, plus a depth of stabbing. That is objectively more complex than the basic system provided by Twilight Princess and Ocarina of Time. Now, because it is complex, it also shows a resemblance to real life swordfighting. Believe it or not you ARE playing a game of puzzlenemy in real life when playing with bouken because you have to maneuver to the weakpoints of your foes. This is immersive and anyone to claim otherwise is playing makebelieve.

If Zelda was a hack and slasher motion control game only, then yes it would, but considering Zelda is a dungeon crawling, puzzle solving adventure game, it's objectively false.
The control scheme makes all the other weapons in combat irrelevant and makes all the enemies, and even most of the puzzles, too focused on the sword, which therefore destroys the game's variety and dumbs down the challenges, because you can always assume it has something to do with the sword, and there's only so much puzzles you can make around one item.
There's also the fact that while motion controls in SS work 98% of the time, thats still a downgrade to regular buttons for the Zelda series' type of gameplay which worked 100% of the time unless you broke your controller.

 

[Ventus]

If Zelda was a hack and slasher motion control game only, then yes it would, but considering Zelda is a dungeon crawling, puzzle solving adventure game, it's objectively false.
The control scheme makes all the other weapons in combat irrelevant and makes all the enemies, and even most of the puzzles, too focused on the sword, which therefore destroys the game's variety and dumbs down the challenges, because you can always assume it has something to do with the sword, and there's only so much puzzles you can make around one item.
There's also the fact that while motion controls in SS work 98% of the time, thats still a downgrade to regular buttons for the Zelda series' type of gameplay which worked 100% of the time unless you broke your controller.

1) Any item is effective against almost any enemy. There are multiple ways to run into an encounter; you can leave bombs at just the right moment, snipe them from afar with the bow, or even slap them around with the whip though it has no real usage. Skyward Sword hands down has the most effective items of the series.

2) SS' controls are absolutely flawless. They work 101% of the time; they work as planned. If you run into any problems, it is due to the PLAYER, not the GAME.

 

[ProtagonistJake]

1) Any item is effective against almost any enemy. There are multiple ways to run into an encounter; you can leave bombs at just the right moment, snipe them from afar with the bow, or even slap them around with the whip though it has no real usage. Skyward Sword hands down has the most effective items of the series.

2) SS' controls are absolutely flawless. They work 101% of the time; they work as planned. If you run into any problems, it is due to the PLAYER, not the GAME.

A) if you seriously say the bow is more useful in combat in SS than it was than, say, WW, I have no idea what you're smoking. The forced first person view combined with the motion controls make it unusable in combat. Objectively those very same motion controls make using those items not as reliable as using the sword. Again, in past games, they worked as soon as you pressed the button, but in SS, you have to worry about how fast you are at pulling off the motion to use the item, whether it be too fast or too slow, which depending on the situation could negate you being able to use it all together, so why would you bother with that, when you have a sword that can swing in all 8 directions?
They knew that, so they made most of the enemies literally REQUIRE the sword to be used to kill some fodder and bossess because they block in certain directions.

That's a personal experience not an overall experience. We're talking objectively remember? Not everyone had a perfect experience with the WM+, including me. Sometimes I would quickly move the sword to the right then slash, and it read that movement as a slash in the direction i already had the sword, I then got hit by the enemy. I got hurt because the controls weren't able to keep up with me. That's bad even from a Hack and Slash game design philosophy.
Again, they may work ALOT of the time, but that simply isn't good enough, especially seeing how SS is VERY combat based.