First Five Titles - Timeline Issue?

[MrMosley]

No GBA LttP says that evil was sealed within the Sacred Realm after evil got out. It says that Ganon couldn't get out after he touched the Triforce. There's a big difference.

That's no different at all. If Ganondorf went in, and couldn't get out, then there's no possible way he could have came to Hyrule for a generation or more, messed around (events of LoZ) then mysteriously got sealed back within the DW. Remember, Ganon didn't get sealed. Ganondorf went in, not Ganon. He became Ganon after wishing upon the Triforce, according to ALttP. That is inconsistent with the fact that he IS Ganon (pig) in LoZ. He can't be two places at once, and him coming out of the DW goes against everything the BS and the in-game plot of ALttP portrays.

Here's a question. The DW is clearly Ganon's Makai in LttP. If that Makai is gone after LttP, how can Ganon have a Makai in AoL.

I don't remember there being any kind of reference to a Dark World or Makai in AoL.

However BS LoZ DID make corrections.

And that's a game that was only released in Japan, on a system that was only temporary. A game that hasn't been re-released since then. Don't you think that if that information was important, they would have put it in a game they actually re-released? Such as ALttP (GBA) or even LoZ? It doesn't matter if all they changed was the mistranslation. They could have easily added something to the story if it were necessary, and obviously, there was nothing necessary to add.

He is in teh Dark World with the FULL Triforce. This is completely impossible if LttP follows directly after OoT. At the end of OoT he had the ToP not the Triforce.

Its not impossible. No matter what game comes before ALttP, somewhere along those lines, the Triforce has to leave all the people that it is in, in order to come together in the SR. We know ALttP isn't the very first, so that means it has to come later. Any time that any previous Link died could have been the point at which the Triforce came together again in the SW. As a matter of fact (breaking away from the first five games thing), the end of TP sets it up nicely to have the Triforce recollect in the SW. Ganon loses his piece, Zelda is shown to give her piece to Midna (which she would obviously lose as well), and Link either lost his piece with the other two, or at a later time. Either way, that sets up a nice ending for the Triforce to return fully to the SR, FSA to happen, and Ganondorf to eventually make his way into the SR for the backstory of ALttP.

With GBA LttP the SW doesn't HAVE to be connected directly to LttP. It is impossible for them to be 100% connected (as in LttP immediatly follows the SW) if OoT was the SW, as Ganon in LttP has the full Triforce where OoT Ganon only had the ToP.

OoT wasn't the SW. If you want to say back then, yeah then maybe it was meant to be. But WW disproves it as the SW, and the fact that FSA was being developed to be the SW obviously shows that the team does not consider OoT the Seal War anymore. And no, ALttP doesn't have to come directly after the SW... But it does come some time later as the next big event in the series. ALttP shows that. It does not say "Oh, well the SW happened, then LoZ happend, but we're not going to say anything about LoZ for no reason at all". No... If LoZ happened prior to ALttP, then it would make more sense for them to add that into it's BS for the GBA release, or at least during its in-game context. But did they? No. They left roughly the same exact plot; They tell about the SW, then we come to ALttP.

 

[sign of table]

Remember, Ganon didn't get sealed. Ganondorf went in, not Ganon. He became Ganon after wishing upon the Triforce, according to ALttP.

Maybe. Maybe not. Japanese LttP Triforce quote could imply that he was Ganon at the time of touching the Triforce:

Ganon's wish was to claim the world.

I don't remember there being any kind of reference to a Dark World or Makai in AoL.

There was.

Meanwhile, Ganon's underlings were calling up fresh footmen from the World of Spirits (Hell), and had begun working for Ganon's revival...

However the word used is Makai. Which literally translates to Demon World, IIRC.

And that's a game that was only released in Japan

By that logic Japanese translations are invalid.

on a system that was only temporary

Define temporary.

A game that hasn't been re-released since then.

AST was released on the exact same system around the same time, but hasn't been released. And it's even been acknowledged by Nintendo after release in the Zelda no Video documentary. And was made by the Zelda team.

Such as ALttP (GBA)

Put LoZ's backstory on LttP? That'd make no sense what-so-ever.

or even LoZ?

NONE of the rereleases of LoZ have been changed in ANY WAY.

They could have easily added something to the story if it were necessary, and obviously, there was nothing necessary to add.

NoA doesn't have the authority to do so. And even when they do we don't acknowledge things added by NoA (such as Ganon was the demon reborn in FSA, not the trident, etc).

They could have easily added something to the story if it were necessary, and obviously, there was nothing necessary to add.

Or it was a DIRECT rerelease. NOTHING was changed about the game. Absolutely NOTHING. There is no way they would've added something.

No matter what game comes before ALttP, somewhere along those lines, the Triforce has to leave all the people that it is in, in order to come together in the SR.

Not exactly. But we actually see the full Triforce flying away at the end of OoX, which would seam OoT-LoZ/AoL-OoX-LttP together quite nicely.

Any time that any previous Link died could have been the point at which the Triforce came together again in the SW.

So you're saying that one day the ToW and ToC magically float right into the SR right into Ganon's grasp without anything on-screen showing it? We've only seen that happen once, and that's in OoX, which most people consider to be after LoZ/AoL.

Ganon loses his piece, Zelda is shown to give her piece to Midna (which she would obviously lose as well), and Link either lost his piece with the other two, or at a later time. Either way, that sets up a nice ending for the Triforce to return fully to the SR, FSA to happen, and Ganondorf to eventually make his way into the SR for the backstory of ALttP.

Why would those float to the SR? I mean after the HoT left the AT we saw the pieces just lying about. When Ganon died in LoZ the Triforce didn't float away, it was left to be claimed again. However we've seen the full Triforce fly away quite a bit, but lone pieces of the Triforce have never up-and flown away because their master died. Actually it's been quite to the contrary.

Not that I don't agree with TP-LttP. I personally think TP-LttP makes far more sense than TWW-LttP. But what you're saying is, imo, fanfic.

If you want to say back then, yeah then maybe it was meant to be.

It's not a maybe. The writer for OoT, Miyamoto, and Dan Owsen said on several occassions that OoT was the SW.

There's no denying that in 1998 it was the SW.

ut WW disproves it as the SW

That's incredibly ignorant. In YOUR opinion it disproves OoT as the SW (I have the same opinion, but for different reasons, it seems), but to say it DOES without question disprove OoT as the SW is amazingly ignorant.

and the fact that FSA was being developed to be the SW obviously shows that the team does not consider OoT the Seal War anymore.

By that same logic you could say that because early in TWWs development it was meant to be the first game in the series, that in 2002 OoT wasn't considered the first game in the series anymore.

No... If LoZ happened prior to ALttP, then it would make more sense for them to add that into it's BS for the GBA release, or at least during its in-game context. But did they? No. They left roughly the same exact plot; They tell about the SW, then we come to ALttP.

According to your logic the LoZ rerelease should contain information about LttP for it to take place after.

Both points are utter bull****.

 

[MrMosley]

Maybe. Maybe not. Japanese LttP Triforce quote could imply that he was Ganon at the time of touching the Triforce

Could imply? How about obviously implies, which is what it does. I don't care if its Japanese, German, English, Spanish... The story is what it is no matter how you wanna speak it. ALttP is obviously a prequel. You are guessing around and saying "well LoZ could come before it because of this", but the game itself is pretty clear.

By that logic Japanese translations are invalid.

No, actually not at all. By that logic, I mean that a game released and played by maybe 20,000 people (legally), is not considered canon. It hasn't been re-released or referenced at any point since it came out on the Satellaview, and no games add too, play off of, or take away from the stories of BS LoZ or AST. They are literally nothing. The series would be the same right now as it would if they had never even been released.

AST was released on the exact same system around the same time, but hasn't been released. And it's even been acknowledged by Nintendo after release in the Zelda no Video documentary. And was made by the Zelda team.

And that's supposed to give it more significance? If they wanted to, Nintendo could have re-released AST or BS LoZ multiple times. They could have put it on Collector's Edition, they could have brought them out on GBA, they could put them on the Virtual Console... But obviously, they don't want to, because they aren't important.

Put LoZ's backstory on LttP? That'd make no sense what-so-ever.

Why wouldn't it? Why can't ALttP reference LoZ if it is a prequel? I think Ganon somehow escaping the SR, roaming around Hyrule, somehow gaining the ToP, and being defeated by Link is pretty important. It actually makes perfect sense.

NONE of the rereleases of LoZ have been changed in ANY WAY. NoA doesn't have the authority to do so. And even when they do we don't acknowledge things added by NoA (such as Ganon was the demon reborn in FSA, not the trident, etc). Or it was a DIRECT rerelease. NOTHING was changed about the game. Absolutely NOTHING.

Yeah, I know that. Which is what I'm saying. They could have been if they needed to be, but they were not. It doesn't have to be a complete remake to change things that need to be changed.

But we actually see the full Triforce flying away at the end of OoX, which would seam OoT-LoZ/AoL-OoX-LttP together quite nicely.

I don't consider that a very valid piece of evidence to place OoX.

So you're saying that one day the ToW and ToC magically float right into the SR right into Ganon's grasp without anything on-screen showing it? We've only seen that happen once, and that's in OoX, which most people consider to be after LoZ/AoL. Why would those float to the SR? I mean after the HoT left the AT we saw the pieces just lying about. When Ganon died in LoZ the Triforce didn't float away, it was left to be claimed again. However we've seen the full Triforce fly away quite a bit, but lone pieces of the Triforce have never up-and flown away because their master died. Actually it's been quite to the contrary.

Well they sure just don't drop out of their pockets either. I'm not saying it "magically floated into Ganon's grasp". In TP, Ganondorf lost his piece. For most people who place FSA after TP, the fact that the Triforce is never referenced in FSA probably means that it wasn't around. And that means that Zelda, Link, nor Ganon had their pieces of the Triforce at that time. Obviously, it would have had to recollect in the SR after TP, and prior to FSA.

Not that I don't agree with TP-LttP. I personally think TP-LttP makes far more sense than TWW-LttP. But what you're saying is, imo, fanfic. It's not a maybe. The writer for OoT, Miyamoto, and Dan Owsen said on several occassions that OoT was the SW.

Then enlighten us on how that makes any bit of sense NOW, as in present times. The ONLY way that OoT can still be the SW is if Ganon never escaped after OoT. He would have had to stay there all the way until ALttP, ALttP would have to be on the AT, so the timeline would have been OoT--ALttP. That didn't happen because WW came along and said "Well Ganondorf ended up escaping", so that kills the OoT as the SW theory right there.

There's no denying that in 1998 it was the SW. That's incredibly ignorant. In YOUR opinion it disproves OoT as the SW (I have the same opinion, but for different reasons, it seems), but to say it DOES without question disprove OoT as the SW is amazingly ignorant.

Welp, WW does, without question, disprove OoT as the SW.

By that same logic you could say that because early in TWWs development it was meant to be the first game in the series, that in 2002 OoT wasn't considered the first game in the series anymore. According to your logic the LoZ rerelease should contain information about LttP for it to take place after.

Actually, no. I said it could if it wanted to. By my logic, ALttP is obviously a prequel to LoZ. By your logic, all you can do is say this is and this isn't right, based on your logic. And your logic stems from a quote by Miyamoto, who had virtually nothing to do with the story of anything after LoZ, and so far, your logic is based on small things that pretty much no one knows about or ever hears about (like the Satellaview games). Your logic also hasn't came up with any really good points for LoZ--ALttP, other than Ganon having the Triforce of Power in LoZ. Guess what? That doesn't really answer how he ever got out of the Evil Realm. Doesn't answer how he transformed into Ganon for absolutely no reason. And you might say that him being pig Ganon is unimporant, but really that isn't true at all. ALttP gave reason for him being pig Ganon in later games. ALttP never once said he escaped the SR after entering it (as Ganondorf).

Both points are utter bull****.

Just cause those words are censored doesn't mean you can still say them. I suggest you read over the rules

Do yourself a favor, and calm down.

 

[Viral]

I don't consider that a very valid piece of evidence to place OoX.

You don't consider the state of the Triforce, the object that most of the series is based around, to be important to the timeline?

OoX fits very nicely after AoL for various reasons (such as Ganon being dead, the presence of the dark world and the state of the Triforce at the end of AoL and the beginning of OoX).

 

[MrMosley]

You don't consider the state of the Triforce, the object that most of the series is based around, to be important to the timeline?

I don't consider an ending scene that really has no purpose to be valid. Why would the Triforce need to "fly away"? Even if it does, what would be the point in that? That scene helps nothing in the game or the timeline.

OoX fits very nicely after AoL for various reasons (such as Ganon being dead, the presence of the dark world and the state of the Triforce at the end of AoL and the beginning of OoX).

I agree. That's where I put it on my timeline.

 

[Pinecove]

But as for your question, I would definitely consider the Player's Guide canon; Its just not going to make anyone who hangs onto that quote change their mind.

Why on earth would it be Canon? It's made by NoA for god sakes!

The only possible way that LoZ could have came before ALttP is if something in ALttP pointed to that happening. Nothing does. If the intent of the games changed in 1998, then I'm sure that they would have shown us in the remake of ALttP something that pointed to LoZ being before it. Or, they could have even added something to the text of LoZ's intro signifying that ALttP came later, or that nothing in ALttP had happened yet

What's this then?:

Ganon has escaped from the Dark world and.....

And that's a game that was only released in Japan, on a system that was only temporary. A game that hasn't been re-released since then. Don't you think that if that information was important, they would have put it in a game they actually re-released? Such as ALttP (GBA) or even LoZ? It doesn't matter if all they changed was the mistranslation. They could have easily added something to the story if it were necessary, and obviously, there was nothing necessary to add.

Yes but that's something superviesed by the guy who supervised OoT, ALttP and more recently FSA. ALso speaking BS LoZ makes OoT it's BS.

Aka it makes connections to OoT-LoZ-ALttP

Its not impossible. No matter what game comes before ALttP, somewhere along those lines, the Triforce has to leave all the people that it is in, in order to come together in the SR. We know ALttP isn't the very first, so that means it has to come later. Any time that any previous Link died could have been the point at which the Triforce came together again in the SW.

That's absolute fan-fic. Please bring up actuall proof next time.
Person dying =/= Triforce returns to SR.

Could imply? How about obviously implies, which is what it does. I don't care if its Japanese, German, English, Spanish... The story is what it is no matter how you wanna speak it. ALttP is obviously a prequel. You are guessing around and saying "well LoZ could come before it because of this", but the game itself is pretty clear.

bull****.

ALttP connects itself to no games except OoT which does NOT imply an immidiate connection. ALttP does NOT reference LoZ in any way. OoT does.

It hasn't been re-released or referenced at any point since it came out on the Satellaview,

Wrong: It was referenced in the Zelda no video documentary in 2007.

And that's supposed to give it more significance? If they wanted to, Nintendo could have re-released AST or BS LoZ multiple times. They could have put it on Collector's Edition, they could have brought them out on GBA, they could put them on the Virtual Console... But obviously, they don't want to, because they aren't important.

Or maybe they don't have the rights because the BS company doesn't want to give it to them? Honestly, please do your research before making false acusations.

Why wouldn't it? Why can't ALttP reference LoZ if it is a prequel? I think Ganon somehow escaping the SR, roaming around Hyrule, somehow gaining the ToP, and being defeated by Link is pretty important. It actually makes perfect sense.

Yeah except for the fact that Ganon was COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY DESTROYED at the end of ALttP.

Well they sure just don't drop out of their pockets either. I'm not saying it "magically floated into Ganon's grasp". In TP, Ganondorf lost his piece. For most people who place FSA after TP, the fact that the Triforce is never referenced in FSA probably means that it wasn't around. And that means that Zelda, Link, nor Ganon had their pieces of the Triforce at that time. Obviously, it would have had to recollect in the SR after TP, and prior to FSA.

Fun fact: The Triforce isn't mentioned in any of the FS games.

Welp, WW does, without question, disprove OoT as the SW.

We're arguing first five ttitles (plus OoX) right now. Not TWW. Save that discussion for another day.

Actually, no. I said it could if it wanted to. By my logic, ALttP is obviously a prequel to LoZ. By your logic, all you can do is say this is and this isn't right, based on your logic. And your logic stems from a quote by Miyamoto, who had virtually nothing to do with the story of anything after LoZ, and so far, your logic is based on small things that pretty much no one knows about or ever hears about (like the Satellaview games). Your logic also hasn't came up with any really good points for LoZ--ALttP, other than Ganon having the Triforce of Power in LoZ. Guess what? That doesn't really answer how he ever got out of the Evil Realm. Doesn't answer how he transformed into Ganon for absolutely no reason. And you might say that him being pig Ganon is unimporant, but really that isn't true at all. ALttP gave reason for him being pig Ganon in later games. ALttP never once said he escaped the SR after entering it (as Ganondorf).

Wow. somebody didn't read this thread from the begining:

Evidance for OoT-LoZ-ALttP:

Same title for Ganon.
Same state of the Triforce.
Allows for the "first generation Zelda"
Allows for the Miyamoto timeline to co-exist with OoT=Seal War
Changed Magic Shield to Hylian Shield in BS-LoZ
Changed Magic Sword to Master Sword in BS-LoZ
Changed the BS-LoZ backstory to be talking about the Seal War (which was stated to be OoT)
Changed the Seal War story to imply that Ganon only got the ToP and not the whole Triforce (as he did in OoT)
Sage/Town names

 

[sign of table]

Could imply? How about obviously implies, which is what it does.

So you're agreeing with what I say it could imply?

No, actually not at all. By that logic, I mean that a game released and played by maybe 20,000 people (legally), is not considered canon. It hasn't been re-released or referenced at any point since it came out on the Satellaview, and no games add too, play off of, or take away from the stories of BS LoZ or AST. They are literally nothing. The series would be the same right now as it would if they had never even been released.

The Zelda team worked on both, AST HAS been recognized by Nintendo and mentioned in interviews, and AST is the only hard evidence for LttP/LA.

And that's supposed to give it more significance? If they wanted to, Nintendo could have re-released AST or BS LoZ multiple times. They could have put it on Collector's Edition, they could have brought them out on GBA, they could put them on the Virtual Console... But obviously, they don't want to, because they aren't important.

1) Non-sequiter. 2) They wouldn't work the same way it does on the BS.

Why wouldn't it? Why can't ALttP reference LoZ if it is a prequel? I think Ganon somehow escaping the SR, roaming around Hyrule, somehow gaining the ToP, and being defeated by Link is pretty important. It actually makes perfect sense.

Because nothing was added to LttPs GBA manual. And they didn't add anything to LoZ's backstory on the GBA rereleases. So to you, both points should be moot.

Yeah, I know that. Which is what I'm saying. They could have been if they needed to be, but they were not. It doesn't have to be a complete remake to change things that need to be changed.

Ugh it's so hard to have a proper debate who has a COMPLETELY different mindset...

It's a straight up rerelease.

I don't consider that a very valid piece of evidence to place OoX.

I guess sensical evidenced Triforce consistency doesn't matter at all.

Then enlighten us on how that makes any bit of sense NOW, as in present times. The ONLY way that OoT can still be the SW is if Ganon never escaped after OoT. He would have had to stay there all the way until ALttP, ALttP would have to be on the AT, so the timeline would have been OoT--ALttP. That didn't happen because WW came along and said "Well Ganondorf ended up escaping", so that kills the OoT as the SW theory right there.

Circular logic is circular.

Then enlighten us on how that makes any bit of sense NOW, as in present times. The ONLY way that OoT can still be the SW is if Ganon never escaped after OoT. He would have had to stay there all the way until ALttP, ALttP would have to be on the AT, so the timeline would have been OoT--ALttP. That didn't happen because WW came along and said "Well Ganondorf ended up escaping", so that kills the OoT as the SW theory right there.

I was referring to in 1998, which is mostly what this debate is about. In 1998 OoT was intended the SW, and only a moron would deny that.

Welp, WW does, without question, disprove OoT as the SW.

Not really. I agree that because of TWW OoT isn't the SW anymore. But saying it is flat out impossible is just plain ignorant and stupid.

This is the same damn problem we have with the LA debate. I have no problem with OoT =/= SW or LttP/LA, I have a problem with people saying that those are completely undeniable.

Actually, no. I said it could if it wanted to. By my logic, ALttP is obviously a prequel to LoZ. By your logic, all you can do is say this is and this isn't right, based on your logic. And your logic stems from a quote by Miyamoto, who had virtually nothing to do with the story of anything after LoZ, and so far, your logic is based on small things that pretty much no one knows about or ever hears about (like the Satellaview games). Your logic also hasn't came up with any really good points for LoZ--ALttP, other than Ganon having the Triforce of Power in LoZ. Guess what? That doesn't really answer how he ever got out of the Evil Realm. Doesn't answer how he transformed into Ganon for absolutely no reason. And you might say that him being pig Ganon is unimporant, but really that isn't true at all. ALttP gave reason for him being pig Ganon in later games. ALttP never once said he escaped the SR after entering it (as Ganondorf).

You may be right that OoT-LttP-LoZ makes more sense based on in-game evidence. But it is completely stupid to claim that you look for the developer intended timeline while saying that the OFFICIAL timeline of 1998 was incorrect.

Just cause those words are censored doesn't mean you can still say them. I suggest you read over the rules

I thought I just wasn't allowed to curse in succession? I'm not allowed to curse AT ALL!?!?

Do yourself a favor, and calm down.

The problem with this site is the know-it-all attitude that it, and everyone who theorizes on here, has adopted.

It was a problem on ZU for a while. People instinctively denied CT timelines just because they thought (and said quite a lot) that they had found the correct timeline. Which is why, I'm sure, Impossible hates the site so much (but it's much more accepting now). And why people whom I've known for a while began to dislike me for a period of 2 months because I was then angry at noticing how un-accepting the site was (I think Viral and I were feuding for a little while... but we're cool now ). Of course in the last few months it's gotten a lot better like that. This site hasn't; it's gotten progressively worse. And it's adopted LA's elitist attitude whilst not being influential or innovative at ALL.

I don't consider an ending scene that really has no purpose to be valid.

THIS IS THE ATTITUDE I CAN'T STAND.

You can't freaken say it has no purpose without a shadow of a doubt. OF COURSE if it has no purpose it isn't valid evidence. But saying it has no purpose without a doubt in your mind, and saying it has absolutely no purpose no matter what, pisses me off to no end.

Why would the Triforce need to "fly away"?

Maybe it's going to the SR to fill the gap in the Triforce for the official developer intended timeline. You don't HAVE to believe this theory, but to say it's flat out wrong before even considering it for a fallacious non-sequiter reason just pisses me off. And THAT'S the attitude that makes me angry when I'm on this site.

What's this then?:

Jacensolo's translation of that page said differently, IIRC.

I remember it putting to rest to my stupid theory based on that quote just used for Ollathir...

ALso speaking BS LoZ makes OoT it's BS.

It more made the SW it's BS, not OoT. Since, you know, it's just cut-and-paste from LttPs story which contradicted OoT, anyway

That's absolute fan-fic. Please bring up actuall proof next time.
Person dying =/= Triforce returns to SR.

This.

ALttP connects itself to no games except OoT which does NOT imply an immidiate connection. ALttP does NOT reference LoZ in any way. OoT does.

Debatable (at this point in time. In 1998 I'd, of course, agree with you).

Even if it does, what would be the point in that? That scene helps nothing in the game or the timeline.

Except, possibly, signifying the Triforce going to the SR to fill the gap in the official timeline.

Wrong: It was referenced in the Zelda no video documentary in 2007.

Zelda no Video documentary was 2007 ? I thought it was like 2003.

Yeah except for the fact that Ganon was COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY DESTROYED at the end of ALttP.

Pinecove... I'd expect you to not use NoA...

He's just as dead in LoZ as he is in LttP.

We're arguing first five ttitles (plus OoX) right now. Not TWW. Save that discussion for another day.

Just to nitpick, we're more arguing the intent behind the first 5 games. Which, I'd say, can include anything up to TWW (since that completely changed everything).

 

[Zemen]

Yeah except for the fact that Ganon was COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY DESTROYED at the end of ALttP.

He was completely and utterly destroyed after LoZ and stayed that way after AoL so what's your point?

 

[basement24]

Ugh it's so hard to have a proper debate who has a COMPLETELY different mindset...

A debate is a discussion or argeument between people with opposing viewpoints. You can't have a debate if someone agrees with you.

Seriously, you need to calm down. Don't post angry. Read the posts, get angry offline, then come back the next day and post a more thought out reply. Posting angry messages to people calling them ignorant isn't going to help you gain influence here.

 

[sign of table]

A debate is a discussion or argeument between people with opposing viewpoints. You can't have a debate if someone agrees with you.

Except our timelines are virtually the same. We just think completely differently about the same evidence. I can't debate with someone when they say that the official timeline was wrong, games acknowledged by Nintendo recently aren't canon, that are so completely sure that they are right that they have to tell everyone how right they are and how wrong everyone elses ideas are.

 

[Zemen]

Except our timelines are virtually the same. We just think completely differently about the same evidence. I can't debate with someone when they say that the official timeline was wrong, games acknowledged by Nintendo recently aren't canon, that are so completely sure that they are right that they have to tell everyone how right they are and how wrong everyone elses ideas are.

First of all you have been getting mad that we're not looking for the developer intended timeline. No one here has said that they are trying to find the developer intended timeline. If that were the case then everyone would have LoZ/AoL before ALTTP without any refutes. I am a theorist that believes what I see, not what I hear. If a game completely goes against what a developer says then I'm sticking with the game evidence.

I also haven't seen anyone here say anything about them being completely right or acting like they are absolutely right with no doubts. I haven't gotten that vibe from anyone in this argument except maybe Pinecove.

Also, just because we are talking about the first five titles doesn't mean we are talking about there intended positions in 1998. It means we're talking about there positions now. There is no point in arguing something from 11 years ago when we know it's probably not the same now. You can argue how the timeline went LoZ/AoL-ALTTP in 1998 all you want but that doesn't progress or help what the timeline is now.

 

[MrMosley]

What's this then?:

Ganon has escaped from the Dark world and.....

Yeah, the English one says the same thing. And this is what the VC says about A Link to the Past:

Return to an age of magic and heroes! When an evil magician named Agahnim begins kidnapping young maidens in Hyrule in a quest to break the imprisoning seal on Ganon, a young boy named Link is called upon to stop him. Link must venture into twisting mazes, dungeons, palaces and shadowy forests as he searches for the maidens and Princess Zelda. Traversing both Light and Dark Worlds, he must navigate eight dark dungeons, fighting evil enemies and huge bosses. Help our hero prevent Ganon and Agahnim from shattering Hyrule forever. Whether you are a young knight, a heroine-in-training or a seasoned warrior, The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past will delight!

Which says straight up that Ganon was sealed (Imprisoning seal, signifying the seal cast during the Imprisoning War) and Agahnim was trying to break him out. The backstory of ALttP and the in-game text tells about Ganondorf going in, getting sealed, and never coming back out UNTIL the evens of ALttP. Apparently, the VC's description agrees.

I agree that because of TWW OoT isn't the SW anymore. But saying it is flat out impossible is just plain ignorant and stupid.

Just because I pick something and choose to believe it does not mean I have to meet your standards of what is "correct". Really, I don't care one small bit if you think that's ignorant or stupid. I'm picking something that makes sense over a bunch of other stuff that only could be. Why would I set here and talk about things that could be when all I want to do is argue my points of what I think? That's a waste of time, and that's pretty much all you have done so far.

But it is completely stupid to claim that you look for the developer intended timeline while saying that the OFFICIAL timeline of 1998 was incorrect.

I have never once said that I am looking for the developer-intended timeline. I'm looking for a timeline that makes sense, and I could really, REALLY care less if Miyamoto said that LoZ came before ALttP because that flat out does not make any sense. It didn't make sense then, it surely doesn't make sense now, and I highly doubt its ever going to make sense.

Now if you want to set here and continue this discussion as if it were 1998, I could go ahead and tell you that those questions have already been answered. OoT was made to be the SW, which was made to connect to ALttP. ALttP was made to tell how Ganondorf became Ganon. In OoT, we meet Ganondorf. In ALttP we see that Ganondorf went into the SR and obtained the Triforce, transforming it into the DW and himself into the beast Ganon. This all sets up the fact that he is later Ganon in LoZ. That, is what we knew then, regardless of what Miyamoto who probably honestly couldn't tell you the story of each Zelda game, says about the timeline.

I thought I just wasn't allowed to curse in succession? I'm not allowed to curse AT ALL!?!?

Not in the manner that you are, no. Saying one's ideas are bull**** isn't going to be tolerated. Sorry.

The problem with this site is the know-it-all attitude that it, and everyone who theorizes on here, has adopted.

Kinda like you, right? Kinda like how you can tell everyone that their idea is wrong, but never tell them what your idea is? You know, I could do that all day. I could set and tell you why this and that idea won't work, but I'd rather tell people why my idea would. That's not being a "know-it-all", that's merely contributing to discussion. Unlike yourself, who only wants to claim what is false but never give your own ideas.

Of course in the last few months it's gotten a lot better like that. This site hasn't; it's gotten progressively worse. And it's adopted LA's elitist attitude whilst not being influential or innovative at ALL.

Just because this site doesn't meet your expectations doesn't give you the right to come here and complain. Here's a piece of advice, if you don't like it so much, then why are you here?

THIS IS THE ATTITUDE I CAN'T STAND.
You can't freaken say it has no purpose without a shadow of a doubt. OF COURSE if it has no purpose it isn't valid evidence. But saying it has no purpose without a doubt in your mind, and saying it has absolutely no purpose no matter what, pisses me off to no end.

I don't care if you can't stand it or not. That ending means absolutely nothing and that's my take on it. I can't stand it when people say "this is wrong" and "this is right", but never give a good reason for why its wrong or right, but you've wasted a good years worth of everyone's time doing that too so. Get over it. That ending, from my point of view, has absolutely no meaning what-so-ever. Now if you would like to tell me how it does make sense, rather than saying it fills some random gap, then I'd be delighted to listen. Of course, that would mean you would have to tell everyone your idea of a timeline, and obviously that's going to be a problem since you haven't been able to do it in months.

 

[sign of table]

First of all you have been getting mad that we're not looking for the developer intended timeline.

...There ya go, then. I am thoroughly convinced we will NEVER agree on anything EVER, then lol.

I am a theorist that believes what I see, not what I hear. If a game completely goes against what a developer says then I'm sticking with the game evidence.

I don't see the point in making a timeline that makes sense to me if it never has a chance in being the one intended by the people who created the series. Although I have a question, then. The reason why most people who look for the developer intended timeline only disregard evidence because they doubt it contains any "intent". If you're not looking for intent and base things only on things in-game, then how does anything have anymore significance than anything else in your mind? I can completely understand denying the enemies of OoX/LA due to lack of intent, but isn't it completely arbitrary and biased to deny stuff without caring about intent?

I mean if you're looking for the most evidenced timeline based on in-game evidence, then how the hell does any evidence ever mean more than any other piece of evidence?

I also haven't seen anyone here say anything about them being completely right or acting like they are absolutely right with no doubts. I haven't gotten that vibe from anyone in this argument except maybe Pinecove.

Shall I quote every instance where it has happened in this thread? I guarantee there are quite a few.

Also, just because we are talking about the first five titles doesn't mean we are talking about there intended positions in 1998. It means we're talking about there positions now. There is no point in arguing something from 11 years ago when we know it's probably not the same now. You can argue how the timeline went LoZ/AoL-ALTTP in 1998 all you want but that doesn't progress or help what the timeline is now.

I thought this was a debate about what it was in 1998?

And who's to say what's the same now to you, if you're not looking for the developer intended timeline?

EDIT: Ugh DL posted and I don't have time to respond right now... I'll respond later when I have more time.

 

[Zemen]

...There ya go, then. I am thoroughly convinced we will NEVER agree on anything EVER, then lol.

If we did then there would be no point in discussing.

I don't see the point in making a timeline that makes sense to me if it never has a chance in being the one intended by the people who created the series.

Because we all know that the people who have created the series have made mistakes. Even just tiny ones that involve mistranslations or, in Miyamoto's case, putting ALTTP after LoZ/AoL even though it goes completely against the intent of ALTTP being a prequel that was given by the very developers who stated the opposite.

Although I have a question, then. The reason why most people who look for the developer intended timeline only disregard evidence because they doubt it contains any "intent".

Some "evidence" or "intent" can be disregarded because there are simple explanations to them rather than a theory that needs to be given. I'll give an example in a second.

If you're not looking for intent and base things only on things in-game, then how does anything have anymore significance than anything else in your mind?

Some evidence is weighed much more heavily than others. The metioning of Triumph Forks in MC could be evidence if it wasn't so difficult and minuscule for me to notice it. I never would know that the Triumph Forks were mentioned in MC if you hadn't told me they were. They are on a book in the library. Not only are they on a book in the library, but the writing is in Hylian. Do you really think the average gamer (which all games in the world are made for) would EVER notice that? No, but they might notice the fact that Link gets his hat, or that Ganon/dorf isn't anywhere in sight or mentioned even though Hyrule is his main stomping grounds (it's the only Hyrule based game without Ganon/dorf). Or they might notice that it's the only Zelda game that mentions a previous hero that isn't Link (nor wears the same hat and tunic combo as Link). That evidence is weighed heavier than something I have to go on a wild goose chase to find out.

I can completely understand denying the enemies of OoX/LA due to lack of intent, but isn't it completely arbitrary and biased to deny stuff without caring about intent?

Not quite sure what you're trying to prove with this statement, but I'll give you that example I promised earlier based on what you said.

The similar, exclusive enemies in both LA and OoX have a very simple explanation. They use the same graphics engine thus sprites can be reused. LA and OoX are the only handheld Zelda games to have the same graphics engine, thus it makes sense that they have exclusive enemies. They are the only games that can have the same graphics of the same enemies for both games since all other handheld games have different graphics.

It's not evidence, it's just a reuse of sprites.

I mean if you're looking for the most evidenced timeline based on in-game evidence, then how the hell does any evidence ever mean more than any other piece of evidence?

Like I said earlier, some evidence is OBVIOUSLY weighed more than others.

Creators make every game in mind with the idea of "what will the average gamer be able to comprehend?"

They don't make the Zelda games JUST for the hardcore Zelda fans. There are plenty of people out there who play the games and couldn't care less about a timeline but like to know that the games connect. The average gamer isn't going to translate Hylian to find out that this game goes before or after that game. The obvious evidence is the most important evidence. Some things take further research to figure out, but, for instance, having to find a random book, then translate it form Hylian to English to find out that MC might not go first doesn't seem significant to me. It seems like an easter egg that I bet 95% of the people never noticed or have even seen for themselves. It's just something they know about by word of mouth.

Shall I quote every instance where it has happened in this thread?

Please do.

I thought this was a debate about what it was in 1998?

It's about the first five titles and their issue with the timeline. NOW based on what we knew in the past. Miyamoto said what his order was in 1998, but we aren't worrying about what the official order was in 1998 but you seem to keep saying that no matter what that was the order in 1998, but we're wondering what the order is NOW. You keep bringing up 1998 when we are focusing on the here and now.

Wasn't it Pinecove who said "Wow, somebody didn't read this thread from the beginning?"

Irony.

And who's to say what's the same now to you, if you're not looking for the developer intended timeline?

I never believed that ALTTP went before LoZ/AoL EVER. So based on my own opinions and theories, it is the same to me now, just not to you.

 

[Mases]

Why on earth would it be Canon? It's made by NoA for god sakes!

(The above quote was in regards to whether or not the official Link to the Past Nintendo Player's guide was to be considered canon)

If the game box is not considered to be canon because it is NoA, and the player's guide is also not considered to be canon because it from NoA, then I would like to raise another question.

Do you consider statements released by a spokesman of Nintendo of America to be considered Legitimate/Canon? In particular, statements made by Daniel Owsen?