Does Magic Automatically Make Zelda Better?

[JuicieJ]

I bring this question up because I've seen quite a few people over the time I've been here say Nintendo should bring magic back into the series because it makes the games better. I really can't take that statement seriously. While it can make the games better, it has to be implemented properly in order to do so. Take OoT and WW for instance. OoT's magic was really underwhelming and, while it didn't necessarily hurt the game, it didn't benefit it, either. WW just had terrible use of magic in general. It's games like Zelda II and MM that show what magic can do for the series. Thing is, even with this, the more mechanized style can work just as fine, as exampled in SS. Neither style is objectively better than the other. It's all about using specific ideas to fit the style of the games. Hopefully Nintendo can find a way to combine the two in the future, but that's not the point. What matters is I can't understand why someone would say magic automatically makes a Zelda game better. It's just not true.

What are your thoughts on the subject, though. I'd like to get a better feel for the reasoning behind the statement.

 

[Cfrock]

I agree with you, magic doesn't automatically make the game better. I would love to see it return but if it did, I'd prefer it to be more like it was in A Link To The Past.

I agree that it was underwhelming in OOT and WW but I feel magic was best used in ALTTP. Lots of items used magic and they were all interesting and performed great functions. The Fire and Ice Rods were great weapons to use, the Canes of Byrna and Somaria added some extra depth to combat and puzzle-solving and then there were items like the magic powder and magic cape which weren't essential but gave some great advantages when used.

My favourite items in ALTTP were the three medallions, Bombos, Ether and Quake. I had hoped that Din's Fire, Nayru's Love and Farore's Wind would be quite similar in OOT but that wasn't to be. If they ever bring magic back, I hope they provide lots of items and weapons which make use of it, rather than just a few items necessary for completing the game like the Deku Leaf or Lens of Truth. Finding the magic cape and then realising you can cross spike pits with it in ALTTP was a brilliant moment for me, made even more exciting by the fact the magic cape isn't essential and so is nothing more than a reward for exploration and inquisitiveness. I'd love to see more of that kind of thing.

 

[Ventus]

Magic allows for more options generally speaking. More often than not, it isn't required to beat the game, but can be used to beat the game. It allows for diversity, keeps the experience fresh, isn't boring. Not a single game where a Magic Meter appeared has been harmed by magic being in the game, not one.

Magic doesn't make a game automatically better, but from the experiences I've had (TP, SS), they could definitely make use of magic [in conjunction with nonlinearity] to both boost replayability, options, and so much more. Once again, having magic in a Zelda doesn't mean that game is better, it's just that with the examples we've had, the magic didn't do any harm and it even made the game more fun. We could almost make it a rule that magic = better game because we haven't had any counterexamples. It's be more of a conjecture than anything, though.

In general, I prefer magic games than mechanicals because of options.

rather than just a few items necessary for completing the game like the Lens of Truth.

Lens of Truth isn't necessary, only recommended. So, in a way, it is like a reward for inquisitiveness/exploration.

 

[PhantomTriforce]

Does it automatically make a Zelda game better? No. Does it increase the chance of making a Zelda game better? Yes, for sure. Magic was a component that made Zelda what it is, and as of recently, this component is lacking. I would like to see magic be used in the way A Link to the Past used magic, because magic was undoubtedly used the best in that game. This means several items that use magic, several optional items that use magic, and items that use different amounts of magic. So in short, magic would most likely only make a Zelda game better.

 

[JuicieJ]

Magic allows for more options generally speaking. More often than not, it isn't required to beat the game, but can be used to beat the game. It allows for diversity, keeps the experience fresh, isn't boring. Not a single game where a Magic Meter appeared has been harmed by magic being in the game, not one.

Magic doesn't make a game automatically better, but from the experiences I've had (TP, SS), they could definitely make use of magic [in conjunction with nonlinearity] to both boost replayability, options, and so much more. Once again, having magic in a Zelda doesn't mean that game is better, it's just that with the examples we've had, the magic didn't do any harm and it even made the game more fun. We could almost make it a rule that magic = better game because we haven't had any counterexamples. It's be more of a conjecture than anything, though.

In general, I prefer magic games than mechanicals because of options.

Thing is, mechanics can provide options as well. They're just different. Both styles have their advantages over the other.

So in short, magic would most likely only make a Zelda game better.

If executed properly. It didn't make OoT better and it only made WW suffer.

 

[Ventus]

Thing is, mechanics can provide options as well. They're just different. Both styles have their advantages over the other.

Yeah, but mechanics are more limited than magic, MUCH more limited. Name those advantages that mechanics have over majicks, as I see none. ;P

 

[JuicieJ]

Yeah, but mechanics are more limited than magic, MUCH more limited. Name those advantages that mechanics have over majicks, as I see none. ;P

Explain what majicks has over mechanics that makes it objectively better. Because neither is the superior in the end.

Mechanics offer much more in-depth combat, use of sick items like the Hookshot and Beetle, more innovative puzzles, and bosses like Helmasaur and Koloktos (and pretty much ever boss in SS bar, like, 2).

Oh, and the Hidden Skills.

 

[Ventus]

Explain what majicks has over mechanics that makes it objectively better. Because neither is the superior in the end.

Mechanics offer much more in-depth combat, use of sick items like the Hookshot and Beetle, more innovative puzzles, and bosses like Helmasaur and Koloktos (and pretty much ever boss in SS bar, like, 2).

Much more diversity, that's what. Options!

You can get in-depth combat (timing, placement, etc), amazing items and puzzles via magic, believe it or not. I'd go so far as to say they're better than all of mechanized bosses (bar Helmasaur). Also, I'm not seeing how Koloktos is even mentionable. Scratch him off your list, leave Helmasaur up there. ;P

 

[Cfrock]

Lens of Truth isn't necessary, only recommended. So, in a way, it is like a reward for inquisitiveness/exploration.

Actually, yeah, you're right. Good point, although it was necessary in Majora's Mask in order to meet Darmani.

OOT kinda nudges you towards going to find the Lens of Truth whereas, with the example of the Magic Cape, there's nothing that even hints at it, you just find it if you explore enough so I always felt that the Lens was something they intended for oyu to go and get, rather than just you might stumble upon it.

 

[JuicieJ]

Much more diversity, that's what. Options!

You can get in-depth combat (timing, placement, etc), amazing items and puzzles via magic, believe it or not. I'd go so far as to say they're better than all of mechanized bosses (bar Helmasaur). Also, I'm not seeing how Koloktos is even mentionable. Scratch him off your list, leave Helmasaur up there. ;P

"Lulz options" is not a solid argument. Give me objective reasons such as specifics.

I know you can get good combat with magic, but it's more "lulz I can attack you from far away" rather than up close and personal combat. Magic can benefit combat if used properly, which is exactly why magic and mechanics should be used in harmony.

Let's see, Koloktos was a giant machine that required us take him apart with the whip, and the second phase had us taking his weapons and using them against him. That's pretty mechanical.

 

[Ventus]

"Lulz options" is not a solid argument. Give me objective reasons such as specifics.

Let's see, Koloktos was a giant machine that required us take him apart with the whip, and the second phase had us taking his weapons and using them against him. That's pretty mechanical.

Search your feelings, you know it to be true.

Could've sworn I said he WAS a machine, but w/e. He doesn't represent the height of mechanical bosses, is what I'm getting at. He's overglorified because he's huge as bleeps and his boss battle music is rather epic.

 

[JuicieJ]

Actually, yeah, you're right. Good point, although it was necessary in Majora's Mask in order to meet Darmani.

OOT kinda nudges you towards going to find the Lens of Truth whereas, with the example of the Magic Cape, there's nothing that even hints at it, you just find it if you explore enough so I always felt that the Lens was something they intended for oyu to go and get, rather than just you might stumble upon it.

The Lens of Truth is a great example of combining mechanics and magic. It was practical to use, but it needed to be used in increments so we didn't run out of magic. That's the kind of stuff I'd like to see in future titles.

Search your feelings, you know it to be true.

Could've sworn I said he WAS a machine, but w/e. He doesn't represent the height of mechanical bosses, is what I'm getting at. He's overglorified because he's huge as bleeps and his boss battle music is rather epic.

Or maybe it's because he's an amazing boss?

 

[Ventus]

Actually, yeah, you're right. Good point, although it was necessary in Majora's Mask in order to meet Darmani.

OOT kinda nudges you towards going to find the Lens of Truth whereas, with the example of the Magic Cape, there's nothing that even hints at it, you just find it if you explore enough so I always felt that the Lens was something they intended for oyu to go and get, rather than just you might stumble upon it.

Everything is intended to 'go and get', it's just that the Magic Cape is more obscure/outta the way than the LoT is. I do agree that ALttP style magical items should return, because they make the experience ever so interesting, amusing and overall fun. I didn't find myself using the rods all too often, though. Lantern FTW.

 

[JuicieJ]

Everything is intended to 'go and get', it's just that the Magic Cape is more obscure/outta the way than the LoT is. I do agree that ALttP style magical items should return, because they make the experience ever so interesting, amusing and overall fun. I didn't find myself using the rods all too often, though. Lantern FTW.

I would have used the Rods a lot more had they not drained the magic like... like an analogy I'm not going to use.

 

[Ventus]

I would have used the Rods a lot more had they not drained the magic like... like an analogy I'm not going to use.

1/4th magic use upgrade get! And that's an example of what magic has. All these little but totally not required upgrades that have incentive for you to go and get.