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Reworking the Hylian Knights

Mamono101

生きることは痛みを知ること。
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Clans would certainly be better than what we have.

I agree. Plus there appears to be a lot more support for the implementation of clans as an alternative.

I also don't have a problem with converting the HKs into being a clan rather than a rank, as numerous people, including Matt, have suggested. And I also don't care either way whether they are renamed something else or keep the HK name. I don't really see why it should matter if the HKs retain their current name and colour on a new system.
 
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Jamie

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I personally don't like the idea of every person having their own special banner and color, but if people want it then I'm not that opposed to it.
 

Emma

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I personally don't like the idea of every person having their own special banner and color, but if people want it then I'm not that opposed to it.
Hmm.. but what about that badge thing. Couldn't those be used instead of banner? Like a clan section for badges.
 

Locke

Hegemon
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I think HK and Clans are two entirely different discussions. If you want to remove HK, sure. If you want to add clans, sure. If you want both, sure. If you want neither, sure. The ideas currently surrounding clans don't line up at all with what HK is. [ilquote=Garo]It's like replacing a broken cell phone with a toaster. Sure, the toaster might work splendidly, but it doesn't really address the broken cell phone at all[/ilquote]

So, thanks for finally bringing back the Clans discussion thread, Matt. I think such discussion is much better suited there than here.
 

Jamie

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It might work with badges, yeah. Let's move this discussion to your clan thread, though.
 

Onilink89

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I think HK and Clans are two entirely different discussions. If you want to remove HK, sure. If you want to add clans, sure. If you want both, sure. If you want neither, sure. The ideas currently surrounding clans don't line up at all with what HK is.

I would not say that thats two entire different discussion. But i would say we are getting ahead of ourself seeing we don't even have a clan system to begin with.

Like i said, you can easly make a "active user" or "role model" clan if you wanna keep some of the concept from the HK after the rank is removed. BUT, please don't make the same mistake of letting them vote among themselfs or give any special privileges. You can either let the whole forum nominate/vote, similair to the golden key awards, or let the staff vote among themselfs.

Besides, it doesn't necessarly needs a special banner or group color. Just give it a logo and put a seprate tab as "award showcase" and "gift showcase". An alternative would be by putting it at the user info.

Lets take you for example:
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: The Forest Navel
Gender: Male
Posts :1,983
Clan: My Little Pony
tumblr_static_cva0tfr0x80so8kkw0wwko0gw.gif
 

Spiritual Mask Salesman

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Honestly we should just get rid of the HK rank, as was voted in that last HK poll. I also have a question, what exactly is the problem with the rank as is? I'm under the assumption that there must be something wrong with the rank, but what? I've heard that the majority of holders of the rank do not answer when called upon, but is this true?
 

Emma

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Honestly we should just get rid of the HK rank, as was voted in that last HK poll. I also have a question, what exactly is the problem with the rank as is? I'm under the assumption that there must be something wrong with the rank, but what? I've heard that the majority of holders of the rank do not answer when called upon, but is this true?
The poll was very badly handled. People who wanted the rank gone repeatedly attacked those who didn't want to remove it an the poll was set as public, showing everyone who voted for what. Many people who were inactive on the forum and some new accounts voted in support of the side that wanted them gone. The people who did speak in the accompanying thread in support of removing the knights were extremely ignorant of what was actually going on in the group, apparently under the impression of various false assumptions of how the system worked and what the people inside it were doing. Explanations as to what was actually going on were met with hostility. The open hostility to dissent and the public nature of the poll was a deterant for people to speak up about how they didn't think it should be removed. It'd be very inappropriate to take the poll as a definitive reason to remove it.
 

Jamie

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Many people viewed the rank as fundamentally flawed. You are generalizing a huge portion of the forum. Two Hylian Knights even voted for the removal of the rank.
 
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If the rank is going to incite this level of jealousy, then I think the best course of action would probably be to remove it. I wouldn't necessarily like to see it removed myself, but that's neither here nor there. I just don't like seeing people get riled up over petty stuff like this.
 

Justac00lguy

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If the rank is going to incite this level of jealousy, then I think the best course of action would probably be to remove it. I wouldn't necessarily like to see it removed myself, but that's neither here nor there. I just don't like seeing people get riled up over petty stuff like this.
This is my stance, I'm not sure I agree with the jealousy thing, but it's clear that it creates some sort of divide between those who are deemed to be "Role Models" and those who are not. You can't keep something for the health of the community if the community doesn't want it. I honestly don't mind the rank, I never have, but that's my opinion and not the majority. We can't just ignore those who don't like the concept of the rank because that causes unnecessary conflict and a unhealthy community.

We need to ask the question: will people be happier of the HK rank stays or goes? I think I have a good idea of what the majority of people want around here and I definitely feel it's the latter. There isn't any consequences if the rank goes, sure I and others will lose the rank, but that's a personal problem and not a community problem. Removing the rank and going with clans (and no I don't agree there should be a HK clan) is a step to reinventing the community somewhat.
 

Onilink89

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Honestly we should just get rid of the HK rank, as was voted in that last HK poll. I also have a question, what exactly is the problem with the rank as is? I'm under the assumption that there must be something wrong with the rank, but what? I've heard that the majority of holders of the rank do not answer when called upon, but is this true?

And you sir are the perfect example of why normal members should not have a saying in this subject because most of them don't know the actual issues of the rank. But ignorance is bliss, we tried to isolate the drama within the HK. Yet the normal members just copypasta someone's elses argument to to come over valid with their vote while their true opinion is way somewhere else.

I think i explained multiple times of what the issues were in HK, but will just list it as simple as possible. Though i gotta be honest, i don't know what kind of issue triggered the poll of removal because the HK is a seprate rank entirely.

------

>HK was high regarded members that were mature role models, active members and a direct saying with major forum changes as advisors. Also report button was exclusive for them to prevent report clutter within the staff section. They also have a seprate sub forum that was entirely theirs without moderation. When in need of new mods, first the staff looked here for who was fitting for the job. Also had the freedom of electing and voting for new HK members every month. The staff and HN were also an HK on default. But the staff was not a HN by default.
>Alot of members stopped being active (which was a requirement). Also no one really contributed and the whole role as advisor died.
>Alot half of HK disliked where the rank was going and decided to rework it, but other half was against it and the discussion went fierce. So fierce that mods actualy had to step in the subforum which was supposed to immune of moderation.

First purge

>The HK's role was reduced to mature role model and active member only, but with higher nomination/voting requirments. Report button was not longer exclusive and dropped the whole advisor role. Still had the freedom of electing and voting for new members
>The electing/voting was misused. Election of new HK members became more of a populairity contest and no valid arguments were given during voting. Only a YAY or NAY. It became this unwritten rule of HK that everyone said YAY dispite not knowing about the elected member at all. Basicly monkey behaviour.
>Alot of normal members "aimed" to become an HK seeing it became the cool member club. Alot of jelousy by normal members.
>The trigger however was that some of the HK abused their position as "mature role model" thinking they were completly immune from mods or that mods would pick the side of the HK. Which was not the case, yet the members got this impression.
>Drama and discussions started in the SB, Skype and HK section. Normal members accused the HK and staff for abusing their rank. Most of the HK was mad because staff did not defended the HK and accused the mods of abusing their rank. Also the HN got some misdirected frustration from the normal members as well the HK.
>Staff became too personally involved and escalted the whole thing. *cough*AxleTheBeast*cough*
>I saw this and decided to call all HN on skype and most of the HN joined the staff chat, because we had a neutral position in this case and our fair share of experience to deal situations like this. Discussed this for weeks both on staff chat and HK section.
>Decided to reset the rank again. Made it clear that HK doesnt have special privledges nor a saying like HN. Completely seprated the HK rank and the staff and HN were no longer HK by default.

Second Purge
 
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Emma

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This is my stance, I'm not sure I agree with the jealousy thing, but it's clear that it creates some sort of divide between those who are deemed to be "Role Models" and those who are not. You can't keep something for the health of the community if the community doesn't want it. I honestly don't mind the rank, I never have, but that's my opinion and not the majority. We can't just ignore those who don't like the concept of the rank because that causes unnecessary conflict and a unhealthy community.

We need to ask the question: will people be happier of the HK rank stays or goes? I think I have a good idea of what the majority of people want around here and I definitely feel it's the latter. There isn't any consequences if the rank goes, sure I and others will lose the rank, but that's a personal problem and not a community problem. Removing the rank and going with clans (and no I don't agree there should be a HK clan) is a step to reinventing the community somewhat.
While I don't agree with their opinion, I don't see a way around it. That's why in my proposal I don't want there to be any barriers to entry in the group that I wish to transition the knights into. And for their focus to be on actively helping people and proving their sincerity through actions rather than by a collective approval of a vote the community had no part in. So I believe my idea addresses the concern you are talking about here. If we make clans, I don't think it's appropriate for you (as in the staff as a whole) to say that the HKs cannot transition into a new purpose and existence as a clan. To do otherwise would be unfair. Given the open nature I'm proposing, no one would have to be in it if they didn't want to, and anyone that could join would be able to. It'd be wrong to say people shouldn't be allowed to do it when it is supposed to be their choice. It contradicts the criticism's currently being used against the knights as my proposal specifically eliminates those concerns while not singling out any knights for punishment. A mass demotion can only be viewed as a punishment, and a failure to be readmitted after that demotion would only be seen as an act of censorship. And the whole idea has not been described anyway so I don't understand why it'd fix any problems without that explanation.
 

A Link In Time

To Overcome Harder Challenges
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The biggest problem with the Hylian Knight subforum right now is the lack of discussion. There isn't conversation about the current system and how it could he periodically adjusted to increase its efficiency nor is there discussion in nomination threads. A few days ago when I posted a thread about implementing rigid time frames for quarters, Locke, who I consider to be an informed member of the community, wasn't sure if the nomination system was running, quarterly, or both. As someone who's had the opportunity to look through nomination threads from 2012 to 2014, I was pleased to see there was extensive discussion in threads last year stimulating knights to truly think about potential candidates. Nowadays, discussion has mostly returned to simple yes or no replies. This is especially perplexing now that there is more time to discuss nominees.

Paralleling the staff, I believe the current knights truly do want to be a positive influence on the forums, but past experiences with knights who abused the system continue to haunt the forums. I believe that a simple rebranding of the usergroup will not solve these problems. In the grand scheme of things the Hylian Knights are honorary so it doesn't make a large difference whether or not they are kept. Perhaps to make people more comfortable talking in the section, more casual conversation threads should be posted now posted now. Many of the old HK threads were talks ranging from personal life to forum chatter. Returning to the usergroup's roots and creating a more private enclosure to turn to, as Matt has suggested, could perhaps be the spark that the subforum requires.

If the rank Is removed, I continue to believe that everyone will continue to post as before and continue to strive for improvement despite the lack of a visible reward. Improvement in and of itself is very rewarding.
 

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