Reworking the Hylian Knights

[Sydney]

There are five pages to this thread, and I do not feel inclined to read most of them. The only thing I'd like to ask is that you'd get the community's opinion on this again. If that means another poll, then do it. If that means getting the same results again, then do it. I'm not here to say this is X person's problem, or X person's fault, but getting the community's opinion on a matter that concerns them is important -- especially when you could be getting the opinions of future Knights.

 

[Justac00lguy]

If there is a poll, it should be: Rework vs Remove. And be a decided by which option reaches a majority. To be honest though, the last poll was conclusive and the reason why it didn't come into effect, it's removal that is, was due to a higher up decision that told us to keep the rank. We didn't have a say, if we do have a say now, then the last poll should count.

 

[A Link In Time]

If a community poll is used, I would prefer every staff member agreed to such an idea beforehand so there is no surprise about the consequences of such a method afterwards. This includes contacting Mases and receiving his consent to cement the legitimacy of the decision.

I think a post made by misskitten in the HK section thread "What's Keeping You a Hylian Knight?" over a year ago encapsulates what the Hylian Knight usergroup would be in an ideal situation,

To be honest, it's simply that I see no reason to renounce the title, it's definitely an honor to carry it. But like I made no intended effort towards attaining it, I similarly don't do anything specific to carry it. I am just being me, the person and the poster I want to be. It's unlike the time at another site when I was suddenly asked to be a moderator, when that happened I started rethinking my own behaviour on the forum because I was accepting a job in a way. I was taking on the task of peacekeeping a specific forum, it was my job to go into a heated conversation and cool things down. As an HK, things are different. I mean, sure I do try my best to be the poster who can calm a situation down rather than adding fuel to the fire (key word being try, as I don't always succeed), but that is because of my own personal desires to be a positive influence rather than a negative one. It is not directly tied to having been given a title. I would do the same thing even if I didn't carry the purple banner.

The Hylian Knight was intended as an honorary position, and I am sure the creators of the usergroup shared misskitten's sentiments in creating it. And in fact, some of the early Hylian Knight threads were general discussions where the knights talked about whatever ranging from personal interests to forum chitchat. Those who created the usergroup could not have predicted what would happen years down the road. No one knew that the votes would be rigged to get a several times banned member into the group; no one knew that someone would leak threads in public constantly; no one knew that promotions would dwindle to a bare minimum two years straight.

That said, the Hylian Knight usergroup should be evaluated for what it is now and not what it was intended to be. If the community ultimately wishes to get rid of the rank, so be it as the Hylian Knights are meant to be role models for the community, and there is no point leaving something that is devoid of purpose in most peoples' eyes. I truly do believe misskitten's words that if someone behaves as themselves and strives to constantly improve, they will continue to do so.

Regarding the award idea, I believe the Golden Fro Award should be formally introduced as a way to recognize people who are active on a consistent basis whether it be for creating a pleasant chatting experience in the Shoutbox or for consistently creative or well thought posts. Thareous and I have already been doing this. For those that were around for the award's inception, they'll also know that it was first given for "Mega Posts", which were honored for having a deep level of analysis and formatting with graphics that made for an easier in-depth read.

 

[Onilink89]

I've tried to keep the sinking ship afloat in some kind of hope, but it really hit me, what's the point of a role model for the community of the community doesn't want the rank in the first place? That means the ranks presence only caters to a minority on the forum, while it will still be opposed by the majority, which is unhealthy. The HK rank should be something trivial, but it's simply not. It causes more harm than it does good, it causes hostility by its mere presence.

You can rework and rework them over and over again, but it won't change people's perception of the rank. And as Oni said, this has happened before, yet it still ends up in the same place with a large majority of people still disagreeing with its existence.

And i tried to keep the sinking ship afloat too multiple times. Especialy the second purge which was the most intense one. All of the HN were involved too because the HK section became too fierce, which rarely happens. Some of the HN (including me) discussed this for days in the staff chat. Because the normal members accused the HK for their abuse of their rank, while the HK accused the staff for abusing their rank of trying to purge things. So we were the only ones with a neutral position and basicly played "judges"

The first concept and purpose of HK was not bad to begin with. Neither was the second purpose, which was a more simple and degraded version of the first but with higher requirements and stricter rules. Also it completely became a seprate rank, as in that Mods and HN didn't had acces to HK by default.

Like you said "it causes hostility by its mere presence" which is true but, the HK caused this themselfs. They ruined their own reputation. Why isn't there barely any hostility against HN? The only hostility we get from time to time is because people often think that the HN is an upgraded HK, because of the naming. Which frankly im tired explaining it multiple times thats not the case, dispite its on the FAQ & Rules thread.


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And as for Rep, you want a suggestion or solution?

you wanted to start from scratch right? First of all, get away from the name "Hylian Knight". No matter how many purges or how much the purpose changes, the rank itself is tainted and caused a bad reputation for themselfs. If you have a really good idea that actualy needs to be a rank, come up with a different name. And ditch the whole "Hylian [insert somthing here] " thing. Name it something more realistic and straitforeward. Also, please rename the HN into "Senior" or "Hall of Fame" or something.

 

[A Link In Time]

Like you said "it causes hostility by its mere presence" which is true but, the HK caused this themselfs. They ruined their own reputation. Why isn't there barely any hostility against HN? The only hostility we get from time to time is because people often think that the HN is an upgraded HK, because of the naming. Which frankly im tired explaining it multiple times thats not the case, dispite its on the FAQ & Rules thread.

I don't want to derail this thread with HN discussion as it isn't the purpose of this thread, but, from my perspective, a lot of complaints about the Hylian Nobles seem to be directed towards how inactive they are. linkman8 hasn't logged onto the forums for nearly two years, for example.

 

[Onilink89]

I don't want to derail this thread with HN discussion as it isn't the purpose of this thread, but, from my perspective, a lot of complaints about the Hylian Nobles seem to be directed towards how inactive they are. linkman8 hasn't logged onto the forums for nearly two years, for example.

Seeing that we are often associated with HK, i don't see it go off topic that much. I don't know where these "complaints" come from tbh, but yes HN are inactive in general. But since its not a requirement, it should not be a problem to begin with.

As for your example with linkman8, so what? I was inactive for almost 4 years when i went to college. Also one of the main reasons i resigned as a mod. In fact, that was a common reason for most HN that was an ex-mod for years. But that doesn't change the fact that the HN contributed a massive amount of time and effort to ZD, which why the rank exists in the first place. linkman8 was also a member since 2005 and a mod since 2006 like me. So out of almost 8 years he invested, that after the last 2 years he's not worth mentioning anymore?

 

[Emma]

We've gotten off the topic of the clan idea. I still think this is our best solution. I think it'd be a good idea to start making suggestions on how it'd work. I'd rather not steal the show and we should be working together. We're not getting anywhere arguing about why some of you hate the knights. WE GET IT ALREADY you don't like what you think they are. You've said that over and over, you don't need to repeat it. Can we work on a positive solution? You are not being reasonable. It's clear that many of you just want to kill it. I want it to be left alone. Instead of repeatedly demanding you absolutely get your way, without budging at all, the more honorable thing is to work on a compromise that can solve more problems. That's what I did. I can accept the clan idea as a compromise. So instead of wasting time repeatedly demanding you deserve to get your way, let's work on this idea.

c'mon, we need ideas for what kind of clans to have, how they'd function, how they'd be managed. We can get some positive work done on this if we put our heads together.

 

[Justac00lguy]

Did we actually ever agree on the clan idea though. Plus if there was to be clans, a HK clan would still be similar in and meaning to what it is now, it would just be a, well, clan. I actually like the idea of clans, in terms of a set number of neutral clans that anyone can join though. My idea a few months ago, in that clan thread, was to have each clan be a specific element relating to the 6 Sages and their respective symbols being what we use to denote that clan.

 

[Emma]

Did we actually ever agree on the clan idea though. Plus if there was to be clans, a HK clan would still be similar in and meaning to what it is now, it would just be a, well, clan. I actually like the idea of clans, in terms of a set number of neutral clans that anyone can join though. My idea a few months ago, in that clan thread, was to have each clan be a specific element relating to the 6 Sages and their respective symbols being what we use to denote that clan.

Yes actually. We seemed to reach a consensus on it last time. The problem was that people got confused about how to implement clans. So that's what we have to address now. Figuring out how to make them. And no, the knights won't be in the same situation then, that's the point of doing it. In that case, there'd be no voting, people could join on request, and its purpose would be changed into a support role where people help do good things just because they want to, not because they were "chosen" for it. That does address the main concerns people made about them. So it's not reasonable to say they'd be in the same situation.

We should focus on getting a viable idea of how to construct clans, I do think it's going to help a lot of our issues besides just this one and it'd be a great good for the community. Instead of repeating old hatreds for the HKs, let's actually do something productive.

 

[Spiritual Mask Salesman]

I for one like the decision of rebooting the rank completely, by electing completely new members for the rank and monitoring they're contributions it could give the rank a whole new life. In the end if it doesn't work than just get rid of the rank as a final resort, but as of now this would be the only option available to “rework” the Hylian Knight rank. Of course those who currently have the rank should be able to earn it again, but in order to do so they must prove that they will actually contribute to the progress, and not hold it back by getting the rank again and doing nothing.

 

[Emma]

I for one like the decision of rebooting the rank completely, by electing completely new members for the rank and monitoring they're contributions it could give the rank a whole new life. In the end if it doesn't work than just get rid of the rank as a final resort, but as of now this would be the only option available to “rework” the Hylian Knight rank. Of course those who currently have the rank should be able to earn it again, but in order to do so they must prove that they will actually contribute to the progress, and not hold it back by getting the rank again and doing nothing.

Repeatedly stating that it's going to magically fix it won't make that anymore true. The actual reason there haven't been many new knights is the hostile attitude of non-knights. The resentment they have for the knights and the harsh treatment they direct towards knights. It makes it unappealing for most people to be knights. This means, that rebooting them won't DO ANYTHING AT ALL. The only people who would be voted back in are people who support the agenda to destroy the knights, and even then that might not be many. So then they'd just be disbanded. There's no effective difference between rebooting and killing it. It's a planely transparent method to eliminate opinions that go against the "kill" position. Demotion is not something you use casually to simply address opinions people have about someone else. It's only supposed to be used as an actual punishment. Demoting the knights is just killing the knights. Stop pretending it's going to be anything different.

And you all need to stop saying that the knights are doing nothing. The people who want to see the knights dead keep complaining about how they do nothing, keep harassing existing knights, and then using the lack of progress THEY ARE CAUSING as proof that it doesn't work. Then they take the moral high ground as if they're so superior for pointing out a problem, which they are causing, as the fatal flaw. If everyone stopped harassing the knights right now, stopped complaining about them, and just let the voting process continue, new knights would be added pretty quickly. The primary problem is a lack of people who are willing to be one. Stopping the hysteria would solve the problem then and there. We also have the idea of starting up clans. Either of these ideas will work. But no one is willing to discuss them. All we're getting is "oh, the knights are horrible and don't work and they need to be punsihed" and no one is willing to actually discuss fixing the problem. You all keep insisting you deserve to get it done absolutely your way, no questions asked, no budging at all. Completely unwilling to give any ground, yet still taking the moral high ground. We need to talk about actual solutions, and not more sensationalism.

 

[Jamie]

You're not exactly budging; you like the clan idea. I was actually voting to disband the knights but due to a suggestion by a knight I thought it would be a good compromise to rework them. That is budging. Also no one is complaining about the speed at which people are being voted in, so I don't get why you keep bringing that up.

 

[Emma]

You're not exactly budging; you like the clan idea. I was actually voting to disband the knights but due to a suggestion by a knight I thought it would be a good compromise to rework them. That is budging. Also no one is complaining about the speed at which people are being voted in, so I don't get why you keep bringing that up.

Reworking them will accomplish nothing. Both Oni and I have explained to you how it is an illogical idea that won't fix anything but you keep insisting that it's a fantastic idea that will solve the problems you think are there. And... you seemed to have missed this:

[...]not hold it back by getting the rank again and doing nothing.

This has been repeated throughout this thread that the current knights are not accomplishing anything. I have been telling you from the beginning here why we can't get things done. But you don't want to hear it. Your refusal to admit what is going on is what dooms your rebooting plan to failure. It is never going to work.

If I were biased, I'd say I want the knights to be left alone and nothing else. And I do think that will work. BUT, I proposed the clan compromised, based on Djinn's desire to create clans and his suggestion a couple years ago to use it to solve the "HK Problem" as a compromise that helps us best by solving the most problems. But you're still stuck on your idea and you will not discuss this one. You won't ask questions about how it could work, about what possible things it could do, or about how to implement it. I think the knights need to be reworked into a support group that helps promote positive reinforcement and group support. Say to help people with coming out, dealing with losses, or dealing with depression. A group dedicated to helping, that anyone can join on request, would be a great help for that. The privacy that a forum section provides can help them feel secure to talk about things they fear others finding out, like coming out as gay for instance. I think it could be a huge benefit to the forums.

And let's not try to pretend we don't have a drama problem here. We waste so much time on people playing out their irrational hatreds that things don't get done. This whole HK issue is about people's hatred of the knights. And their hate is blinding them to finding a solution. A clan system can give us ways to have some fun, compete fairly and in a friendly way, have a support system, bring about a feeling of equality and friendship. It could help solve so many more issues than just this one thing. And people don't want to hear it because destroying the knights is all they care about. We need to focus on something more constructive and positive rather than trying to rip things down to satisfy urges and grudges.

 

[Jamie]

Perhaps my solution is the wrong one, I can't predict the future of events that may not even happen so I can't answer that. However, I can assure you that this is not based on some irrational hatred towards the knights. I like most of the knights. I am not set on destroying them, but improving them. Perhaps my ideas are not the way to go about doing it but my reasons are not as shallow as hating the knights; that's juvenile.

Asking questions and building a clan system with you and others, when I'm not even sure about the idea to begin with, is a bit far fetched. Make a very fleshed out post explaining exactly how the system will work and I will give you my opinion on its feasibility and possible improvements. But I'm not here to help create an idea that I don't even know if I agree with.

 

[Emma]

Perhaps my solution is the wrong one, I can't predict the future of events that may not even happen so I can't answer that. However, I can assure you that this is not based on some irrational hatred towards the knights. I like most of the knights. I am not set on destroying them, but improving them. Perhaps my ideas are not the way to go about doing it but my reasons are not as shallow as hating the knights; that's juvenile.

Asking questions and building a clan system with you and others, when I'm not even sure about the idea to begin with, is a bit far fetched. Make a very fleshed out post explaining exactly how the system will work and I will give you my opinion on its feasibility and possible improvements. But I'm not here to help create an idea that I don't even know if I agree with.

I don't want clans to be all my idea. I want the community to work on building them together. I'm not blind, I know people hate me for standing up to them. I know you want me out of the knights because I don't agree with you. I don't want it to be entirely on me. Because I'm very convinced you'll just dismiss those ideas because they're my ideas. I want us to work together to figure out how to get it to work. You've already tried very hard to ignore everything I suggested. And you have not even tried to hide that you want to eliminate knights who don't agree with you. I know full well I'm in the list of people who won't make the cut in your new group. It's hardly surprising since I keep opposing you when you keep pushing your agenda.

Clans should be a community effort. We should be working together to create them, not putting it on one person who you already expressed a dismissive hatred for. I'd be happy to spin any ideas I have but I do want other people to contribute. I already talked about ideas I had. I'd like more from others to get it working. what I think we need right now is ideas for other clans to start, because we can't just have one. ZU had the three goddesses as clans, matching based on quizes. We could do that, but I think something more open would be better. Maybe we can do clans for all the elements in the series, like light, shadow, spirit, forest, etc. Or maybe something else entirely. The more people we have putting ideas together the easier it'll be to get a plan down. Or you can continue saying how bad I am and how the knights deserve to die, and we can waste our time going over your reboot idea that you refuse to even explain that has no logic. I'd rather do something more productive.