Spoiler ST--ALttP Relationship Theory

[DuckNoises]

Note: This thread may contain similar aspects to other pre-existing threads, but the intent or idea is not identical. The intent of this thread is to pose an alternative theory to ALttP being on the child time line following TP (or TP, FS/FSA). I recognize the legitimacy of that theory and recognize it as entirely plausible; I do not intend to debunk it in any way.

First and foremost, we will all have to assume that Ganondorf did not die at the end of TWW. Frankly, I don't think Nintendo would kill off a character entirely, because that removes opportunities to create further games involving a primary character in the adult timeline, and would result in less opportunities to make games.

Much like the geographical similarities involving the Master Sword being in the Lost Woods in both ALttP and TP, this theory is also based a fair bit on the geography of Hyrule.

Ocean Level:
Now, since the Master Sword is located under the Ocean at the end of TWW, this does not mean it will remain there forever. Note that, at the end of PH, the Ocean King fixes the Great Sea, causing it to go down from above-land levels that it had been at in TWW, presumably restoring it to the OoT sea level. If Hyrule Castle at the bottom under the sea in TWW is the one from OoT, that would mean that the Temple of Time and Hyrule Castle were previously located at ground level, which, in TWW, was the bottom of the ocean, and in OoT, was roughly sea level. This means that the Lost Woods in ALttP are roughly at sea level, so the Master Sword was likely moved to the shrine in ALttP.

Imprisoning War:
Now, what strikes me as curious are some similarities between the prologues of ALttP and ST; both refer to a portal opening from which a great evil comes. In both cases, the evil is sealed away. In ALttP, it is most definitely referring to the Imprisoning War. However, in ST, a similar evil is also sealed away. It's not altogether impossible that both of these legends are both referring to the Imprisoning War. Both legends mention a battle of good against evil, with many casualties. This means that either a) they are referring to the same war or b) there are two Imprisoning Wars. The former comes with many different implications to be discussed later.

The Dark World
Both ST and ALttP refer to the Dark World and portals. There are many, many portals to the Dark World in ALttP, but there is only one in ST. In the prologue to ALttP, it mentions that the great evil opened portals to the Dark World and unleashed evil. As eluded to in ALttP, Ganondorf goes into the Sacred Realm and changes it into the Dark Realm/World.

Geographical/Architectural Similarities and Area of Imprisonment:
The Tower of Spirits in ST is located in the exact centre of the map. Underneath it, Malladus is imprisoned. Note that the base of the Tower of Spirits appears to resemble a ziggurat (step-pyramid). In ALttP, at the very end of the game, in the Dark World, Ganon is located at the very centre of the map underneath a large ziggurat. Curious. Also, there is a large hole at the very top of the ziggurat, which contains Ganon. This hole takes up almost the entire top level of the ziggurat, much like the tower atop the base of the Tower of Spirits in ST. This hole that leads to the bottom of the hollow ziggurat contains one of the two possible Great Evils, Malladus and Ganon(dorf), which, at one point, must have held either Ganon or Malladus, or possibly both of them at two different periods of time in the ziggurat's history.
Another interesting tidbit about ALttP is that, after you defeat Agahnim in Hyrule Castle, you are transported to the Dark World, atop the ziggurat that later contains Ganon. This means that there is likely a portal to the Dark World somewhere near the ziggurat, which would serve the purpose of either sealing the Dark World (and formerly the Sacred Realm) away, or sealing away the Great Evil along with a portal to the Dark World.

The Sages:
ALttP mentions 7 sages sealed away the Great Evil. In Spirit Tracks, if you add the five temple sages, the sage at the Tower of Spirits, and Zelda (who has been a sage in other Zelda games), you also get the number 7.

Now, before I go through some of many possible conclusions and implications that are drawn from this, note that this is merely a compilation of similarities meant to be discussed and considered.

Here are some links I used:
ALttP prologue: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GB7oVjCJhpo
ST prologue: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpfv-tg1Og0&feature=related

Conclusions to be drawn from this (that are not already pre-existing, orthodox pieces of theory)

Possibility A)
The wars discussed in the Prologues of ST and ALttP refer to the same Imprisoning War
and
i)Ganon/Ganondorf is somehow Malladus

Possibility
There are two different Imprisoning Wars
and
i) The first Imprisoning War is centered around Malladus, and the status of Ganondorf is unknown at this time. The second Imprisoning War, as shown in ALttP, takes place at a later date in the same setting, featuring the same ziggurat. Ganondorf and Malladus are therefore unrelated.
ii) Ganondorf, surviving a sword to the head from TWW, returns during the formation of New Hyrule, enters the Sacred Realm, turns it into the Dark Realm, thereby creating Malladus and releasing him into New Hyrule, starting the Imprisoning War as seen in ST. After Malladus is defeated, Ganon leaves the Dark World himself, and starts the second Imprisoning War, as seen in ALttP. Ganon is then sealed back into the Dark World.

 

[DuckNoises]

Also, consider:
Possibility C:
Ignore everything discussed and resume life as normal.

After writing this, I think I've become gradually more skeptical of what I've said and it's started to make less and less sense the more I've thought about it. I think I'm now leaning towards Possibility C and I am starting to believe that ALttP makes more sense following TP; I'm still on the fence about whether or not FS/FSA is intended to be canon.

Everyone give yourselves a pat on the back; you're all such great theorists that, without trying, you've already made me skeptical of my own reflections.

 

[Pinecove]

gnore everything discussed and resume life as normal.

After writing this, I think I've become gradually more skeptical of what I've said and it's started to make less and less sense the more I've thought about it. I think I'm now leaning towards Possibility C and I am starting to believe that ALttP makes more sense following TP; I'm still on the fence about whether or not FS/FSA is intended to be canon.

Everyone give yourselves a pat on the back; you're all such great theorists that, without trying, you've already made me skeptical of my own reflections.

I wish you had said this before I typed everything below...
-------------------------------------------

Ocean Level:
Now, since the Master Sword is located under the Ocean at the end of TWW, this does not mean it will remain there forever. Note that, at the end of PH, the Ocean King fixes the Great Sea, causing it to go down from above-land levels that it had been at in TWW, presumably restoring it to the OoT sea level. If Hyrule Castle at the bottom under the sea in TWW is the one from OoT, that would mean that the Temple of Time and Hyrule Castle were previously located at ground level, which, in TWW, was the bottom of the ocean, and in OoT, was roughly sea level. This means that the Lost Woods in ALttP are roughly at sea level, so the Master Sword was likely moved to the shrine in ALttP.

Sorry, but there's no evidence for this.

Now, what strikes me as curious are some similarities between the prologues of ALttP and ST; both refer to a portal opening from which a great evil comes. In both cases, the evil is sealed away. In ALttP, it is most definitely referring to the Imprisoning War. However, in ST, a similar evil is also sealed away. It's not altogether impossible that both of these legends are both referring to the Imprisoning War. Both legends mention a battle of good against evil, with many casualties. This means that either a) they are referring to the same war or b) there are two Imprisoning Wars. The former comes with many different implications to be discussed later.

Uh...no. The Seal War/Imprisoning war involves the Triforce, Ganon seven sages and the master sword - ST mentions neither of those.

Both ST and ALttP refer to the Dark World and portals. There are many, many portals to the Dark World in ALttP, but there is only one in ST. In the prologue to ALttP, it mentions that the great evil opened portals to the Dark World and unleashed evil. As eluded to in ALttP, Ganondorf goes into the Sacred Realm and changes it into the Dark Realm/World.

Those are both different dark worlds.

The Tower of Spirits in ST is located in the exact centre of the map. Underneath it, Malladus is imprisoned. Note that the base of the Tower of Spirits appears to resemble a ziggurat (step-pyramid). In ALttP, at the very end of the game, in the Dark World, Ganon is located at the very centre of the map underneath a large ziggurat. Curious. Also, there is a large hole at the very top of the ziggurat, which contains Ganon. This hole takes up almost the entire top level of the ziggurat, much like the tower atop the base of the Tower of Spirits in ST. This hole that leads to the bottom of the hollow ziggurat contains one of the two possible Great Evils, Malladus and Ganon(dorf), which, at one point, must have held either Ganon or Malladus, or possibly both of them at two different periods of time in the ziggurat's history.
Another interesting tidbit about ALttP is that, after you defeat Agahnim in Hyrule Castle, you are transported to the Dark World, atop the ziggurat that later contains Ganon. This means that there is likely a portal to the Dark World somewhere near the ziggurat, which would serve the purpose of either sealing the Dark World (and formerly the Sacred Realm) away, or sealing away the Great Evil along with a portal to the Dark World.

No. Simply no. This theory requires your theory above to work - which it does not.

ALttP mentions 7 sages sealed away the Great Evil. In Spirit Tracks, if you add the five temple sages, the sage at the Tower of Spirits, and Zelda (who has been a sage in other Zelda games), you also get the number 7.

1. They are Lokomo, not confirmed to be sages.
2. They go away at the end of the game - so they're not in ALttP's BS at all.

Possibility A)
The wars discussed in the Prologues of ST and ALttP refer to the same Imprisoning War
and
i)Ganon/Ganondorf is somehow Malladus

Definitely not.

Possibility
There are two different Imprisoning Wars
and
i) The first Imprisoning War is centered around Malladus, and the status of Ganondorf is unknown at this time. The second Imprisoning War, as shown in ALttP, takes place at a later date in the same setting, featuring the same ziggurat. Ganondorf and Malladus are therefore unrelated.
ii) Ganondorf, surviving a sword to the head from TWW, returns during the formation of New Hyrule, enters the Sacred Realm, turns it into the Dark Realm, thereby creating Malladus and releasing him into New Hyrule, starting the Imprisoning War as seen in ST. After Malladus is defeated, Ganon leaves the Dark World himself, and starts the second Imprisoning War, as seen in ALttP. Ganon is then sealed back into the Dark World.

THE DARK WORLDS ARE NOT THE SAME!!!!!!!!
The war mentioned in ST is NOT the Imprisoning war. It's the SPIRIT war.

How the heck is Ganondorf supposed to survive TWW? Hell, Edji Aonuma even said he was dead at the end of TWW.

 

[DuckNoises]

Well, I thought the thing about sea level was plausible.

 

[DuckNoises]

Well, what is an interesting observation and (perhaps) a more accurate one, is that, if you take what most people here considers to be the orthodox split timeline, the Spirit War and the Imprisoning War are roughly across from each other on separate ends of the timeline:


............/--WW/PH--ST
MC--OoT
............\MM--TP--(+/- FS/FSA--)ALttP(+/- OoX--)/LA--LoZ/AoL

Each war appears to happen between the second and third games in the Child Timeline and the Adult Timeline, respectively. Note that I am not counting FS/FSA as games because a) some believe it is not canon or b) some who believe it is canon believe it is the Imprisoning War itself, and it is still between what would otherwise be considered the second and third games in the Child Timeline. Whether or not FS/FSA is the Imprisoning War doesn't matter, because the Imprisoning War still happens sometime, and as most people believe, sometime in between TP and ALttP. Moving on.

Aside from the number of games, I'd estimate they are also happening around the same time, in the instance that the nature of time in question is objective to all possible realities, and time is linear, etc. Let's go through it, shall we? :nerd:

Alright, first off, the end of OoT occurs 7 years from the beginning of OoT. I am assuming that when Zelda sent him back to his own time, that that meant his childhood, such that he could have a happy childhood in addition to whatever everyone's additional speculations are. Majora's Mask now takes place in the Child Timeline at the same objective time as the beginning of OoT in (what will become) the Adult Timeline. At the end of Majora's Mask compared to the end of Ocarina of Time, the Child Timeline is currently 7 years behind the Adult Timeline.
Net Time difference: 7 years +/- three days and however long it takes to stumble into a portal in the Lost Woods.
(Note, because of this reason, I think it makes more sense logically to put OoT on the split timeline twice; once before it splits, and once on the Adult Timeline, accounting for the Adult portion of OoT, but that's just me)

Now, if we take into consideration a quote by Eiji Aounuma that TWW and TP are parallel in time, the net time difference is now null.
Net Time difference: 0 years +/- the legitimacy of an important quotation

Now, at the end of TP and TWW, both timelines should both be at roughly the same point in universal time, with the difference being a small portion of the real-time conversion factor applied to the play time of your standard Zelda game.
Net time difference: +/- 0.1 Zelda game(s)

Phantom Hourglass is a direct sequel to TWW, so we'll say, by the end, it's a year or two from the end of TWW.
Net time difference: 2 years +/- (0.1 years and 0.1 Zelda games)

Now comes the hard part. I'm not sure where I remember this from, but I believe ST takes place roughly a century after PH. Feel free to verify this. This period in between contains the Spirit War.
Now, the Imprisoning War, according to GBA ALttP, lasted a time long enough to "become legend." Well, if 100 years is long enough for the Spirit War to become legend, then we'll say that 100 years will be our rough guess for the duration of the Imprisoning War (to start). It also has to be enough time for there to be descendants of the Seven Sages, so I'd say that's at least a few generations. A generational difference of four isn't far from 100 years; that's long enough to have great, great (fantastic? ) grandparents. From that far back, I'd say that would be long enough to refer to oneself as a "descendant."
So, that leaves us with our final net time difference:

2 years +/- (0.1 years, 0.1 Zelda games, a generation or two, and the difference caused by semantics)
:clap:

Relative to the entire time span of the Zelda universe, this time span is not so large. That means that it's quite possible that the Spirit and Imprisoning Wars could be happening at roughly the same point in objective, linear time. Feel free to discuss the implications of this below.

Alternatively, you can dispute my propagation of error, my semantics, my general method, or simply the relevance of any of this.
(Frankly, I don't think this is very relevant at all to the original topic, but I got bored... so here we are!) :xd:

 

[Pinecove]

Except the spirit war doesn't take place after TWW and PH. if anything it takes place before them as the spirit tracks have been around for thousands of years.

 

[DuckNoises]

It says the Spirit War happened when people tried to settle there (New Hyrule), whose ancestors were Tetra/Zelda and Link from TWW and PH, when Zelda mentioned that her grandmother (or great grandmother, I can't recall) were the first to discover it and settle there.

 

[Pinecove]

No they weren't. The "first settlers" of the land were in New Hyrule far before Tetra and Link set foot in it.

 

[DuckNoises]

Well, then they wouldn't be what's commonly referred to as "settlers," if they were already there, would they?

 

[Locke]

Yeah, ST Zelda's grandmother was one of the first settlers. She was very 'productive,' and many of her offspring mutated drastically into completely different life forms (Anouki, Gorons), then they went back in time to fight a war and make train tracks so they would be there when they first arrived, as stated by that Anouki.

Seriously now, here's the prologue:

This is a tale from long ago. It's the tale of the first settlers of this land. In the beginning, the people followed the Spirits of Good, and all was peaceful. But that era of peace soon came to an end. The evil Demon King rose to power, destroying everything in his path. The spirits of good had no choice but to face him in battle. The war that ensued seemed to last an eternity, and much blood was shed. Finally, the spirits subdued the Demon King, though they could not destroy him. Their powers were greatly depleted. With their remaining power, they buried the Demon King's spirit in the ground. They built shackles to imprison him, and a tower that acted as a lock. These shackles cover the land to this day. With their power drained, the spirits of good returned to the heavens. Suddenly bereft of both demons and spirits, this land was entrusted to us.

The people had already settled the land well before the war started, it didn't start "when people tried to settle there."

Also, as I said, one of the Anouki mentions that the Spirit Tracks were already there when Tetra arrives. Unfortunately I haven't been able to find any text dumps to provide the exact quote.

First and foremost, we will all have to assume that Ganondorf did not die at the end of TWW.

You lost me here. Someone (I don't remember if it was Aonuma, but someone important) told us he died. The only way to put a game with Ganon/dorf on the AT is to put a game like FSA which introduces a new one there as well.

Note that, at the end of PH, the Ocean King fixes the Great Sea, causing it to go down from above-land levels that it had been at in TWW, presumably restoring it to the OoT sea level.

Is this some hidden ending that I'm not aware of?

 

[Pinecove]

Well, then they wouldn't be what's commonly referred to as "settlers," if they were already there, would they?

I'll put it this way:

This is a tale from long
ago. It's the tale of the
first settlers of this land.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

_________________________
In the beginning, the people
followed the spirits of
good, and all was peaceful.
But that era of peace soon
came to an end.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

_________________________
The evil Demon King rose
to power, destroying
everything in his path.
The spirits of good had no
choice but to face him in
battle.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

_________________________
The war that ensued
seemed to last an eternity,
and much blood was shed.
Finally, the spirits subdued
the Demon King, though
they could not destroy him.
Their powers were greatly
depleted.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

_________________________
With their remaining power,
they buried the Demon
King's spirit in the ground.
They built shackles to
imprison him, and a tower
that acted as a lock.
These shackles cover the
land to this day.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

_________________________
With their power drained,
the spirits of good returned
to the heavens.

The fact that terms like "long ago" and "too this day" are used, implies it was more then 100 years ago. Not only that, but:
1. How do you explain where the people already living in New Hyrule came from.
2. Explain why the "first settlers" were shown as people with loincloths.

@Locke64, no you're not missing anything, the guy made it up.

 

[DuckNoises]

Thanks, Pinecove. I appreciate the hospitality you've demonstrated. -.-
If I recall anything about PH, I'm pretty sure that Celia's grandfather says something about the current nature of the Great Sea being related to the Ocean King being sealed away. He should know and all, seeing that he is the Ocean King. I naturally assumed he was referring to the fact that the water level was much higher than it should be, because of the Great Flood.
Before you call me out and say that Ganondorf/lack of Hero caused the Great Flood, I naturally assumed that the Ocean King would be able to fix it, because the Ocean King sounds like he might have something to do with the Ocean (and I think the Ocean King having something to do with the ocean is a pretty safe assumption).
Celia's grandfather was not the Ocean King in his normal form at the beginning of PH, which takes place not too long after TWW.

 

[Pinecove]

Thanks, Pinecove. I appreciate the hospitality you've demonstrated.

I can't tell if this is sarcasm. =/

If I recall anything about PH, I'm pretty sure that Celia's grandfather says something about the current nature of the Great Sea being related to the Ocean King being sealed away. He should know and all, seeing that he is the Ocean King. I naturally assumed he was referring to the fact that the water level was much higher than it should be, because of the Great Flood.

He doesn't say anything of the sort.

Look: Here is a PH text dump.

Now tell me if PH implies anything of the sort - it doesn't just as a heads up.

 

[DuckNoises]

I was being sarcastic. Frankly, you've come across as a little rude.

 

[Pinecove]

Sorry, but I don't really see myself as rude - more blunt.
YOUR interpretation is what validates or invalidates my text as being rude.

If I have been rude I'm sorry.