Spoiler Spirit Tracks and the Light Force: A Connection?

[Anemos]

"Sacred Power"

After Malladus is revived, and you return to your train, Anjean says something that sounded much too familiar to me:

Yes. And once he adapts to your body, my dear, even the spirits of good would be nothing to him.

They would be unable to seal him away again.

Such is the extent of your body's sacred power.

We've seen wording like this before. Specifically, in the Minish Cap.

Near the end of the game, we learn that the Light Force is actually inside Zelda herself. This sacred power was the kind of magic that could make Vaati invincible. He could wreak destruction throughout the land of Hyrule.

​

Look at the quotation: "...even the spirits of good would be nothing to him." has an uncanny resemblance to the invincibility Vaati had hoped to achieve by draining it from Zelda's body.

Could it be that the true reason Malladus needed Zelda's body was to be able to utilize the Light Force? It does seem to fit quite nicely.

​

What it means for Zelda Game Theory...

Assuming that I am correct in the idea that Anjean is hinting that Zelda's body holds the Light Force in Spirit Tracks, it proves the idea that at least some of the Princesses throughout the series are connected by a bloodline.

This means that at least a few of the Zeldas are related by a "family tree".

​

What it means for Zelda Timeline Theory...

If I am right in saying that Zelda's body does hold the Light Force in Spirit Tracks, and that the Zeldas are connected by a bloodline, it can be used to prove that Minish Cap comes before Ocarina of Time.

We know the following is logical:

OoT-[TIMELINE SPLIT]-WW-PH-ST
​

We also know that Wind Waker, Phantom Hourglass, and Spirit Tracks are consecutive, coming one after the other.

So, unless you believe that Minish Cap comes directly before Wind Waker or after Spirit Tracks, the Light Force bloodline had to start before OoT.

 

[Ghosi]

Hmm.. Pretty impressive. There is probably a connection like you stated.

 

[DuckNoises]

This was discussed rather extensively in my TMC thread, which has been gathering dust now. I still think it's an inherent trait of Zelda herself, rather than because she realized she had it in TMC. The time at which all the Zeldas began to exhibit magical power is not specified; its reasoning is eluded to in TMC, but that does not necessarily mean that TMC goes before OoT on the timeline, because it does not state when the legend regarding the Hero of Men takes place.
Again, my thoughts are expanded upon in this thread:
http://zeldadungeon.net/forum/showt...an-TMC-Be-the-Beginning-of-the-Split-Timeline

 

[Anemos]

This was discussed rather extensively in my TMC thread, which has been gathering dust now. I still think it's an inherent trait of Zelda herself, rather than because she realized she had it in TMC. The time at which all the Zeldas began to exhibit magical power is not specified; its reasoning is eluded to in TMC, but that does not necessarily mean that TMC goes before OoT on the timeline, because it does not state when the legend regarding the Hero of Men takes place.
Again, my thoughts are expanded upon in this thread:
http://zeldadungeon.net/forum/showt...an-TMC-Be-the-Beginning-of-the-Split-Timeline

I liked your idea there, and I'm sorry if you feel I stole some of your thunder. However, there are a few tidbits I am prone to disagree to with you. I don't think that the Light Force is the Triforce, nor the Triforce of Wisdom. I think it is a completely separate entity.

Your ideas make some sense, but the Triforce of Wisdom, as shown in the Wind Waker, was passed down in fragmented pieces. The Light Force seems to simply be attached to Zelda's body.

More proof of the difference was the method of extraction. Remember how easily Ganon was able to remove the Triforce of Wisdom and the Triforce of Courage from Zelda and Link in the Wind Waker? Zelda wasn't quite...dead. She just got up and apologized to Link for oversleeping. In the Minish Cap, the ritual was long enough to be extended over a long period of time. Long enough, in fact, for you to climb to the top of Dark Hyrule Castle and fight him just before he finishes the extraction. However, Ezlo mentioned over and over again how Zelda "won't be able to survive the extraction process". There was a pretty big difference there.

 

[Link-182]

Hmm, thats kind of a cool theory. I never really knew what to think of the light force. But how you put it, it really seems like it is something different than the Triforce, like a power fused to every Zelda... making her ruler of Hyrule. I dunno, cool theory. I could buy it.

 

[DuckNoises]

I liked your idea there, and I'm sorry if you feel I stole some of your thunder. However, there are a few tidbits I am prone to disagree to with you. I don't think that the Light Force is the Triforce, nor the Triforce of Wisdom. I think it is a completely separate entity.

Your ideas make some sense, but the Triforce of Wisdom, as shown in the Wind Waker, was passed down in fragmented pieces. The Light Force seems to simply be attached to Zelda's body.

More proof of the difference was the method of extraction. Remember how easily Ganon was able to remove the Triforce of Wisdom and the Triforce of Courage from Zelda and Link in the Wind Waker? Zelda wasn't quite...dead. She just got up and apologized to Link for oversleeping. In the Minish Cap, the ritual was long enough to be extended over a long period of time. Long enough, in fact, for you to climb to the top of Dark Hyrule Castle and fight him just before he finishes the extraction. However, Ezlo mentioned over and over again how Zelda "won't be able to survive the extraction process". There was a pretty big difference there.

Since my original post, I have changed my policy a tad on what the Light Force is exactly. However, I maintain the fact that I don't think TMC is at the beginning of the timeline. It doesn't mean that I am disagreeing with your point of her having the Light Force in ST, but I am disagreeing with the fact that the legend of the Hero of Men where a past Zelda receives the Light Force is dependent of TMC's placement. I think they are definitely independent factors. The events of the legend of the Hero of Men should probably take place early on in the timeline, ideally before the split, since it appears to be exhibited on both sides of the split timeline. As many have speculated, it could be related to Skyward Sword, but again, I don't think that we should jump to the conclusion that TMC is adjacent to Skyward Sword, because, again, they are independent factors. It never indicates how ancient the legend is, and, in my original post, the fact that there is a centennial celebration of it does not necessarily mean that it has to be the first centennial celebration since. The game seems to imply that it isn't the first centennial celebration, either, because at no point does anyone in TMC say something along the lines of "It has been 100 years since the Light Force was bestowed upon us." Rather, they say that the door linking the Picori world to the Hylian world opens only every 100 years. The word "every" seems to imply that it has happened more than once.

Currently, I do agree that there are references to the Light Force in ST, and I think it's quite likely that it very well could be the Light Force. However, the point I was making in my TMC thread was that this fact was independent of TMC's placement. On an interesting note, almost every time Zelda does not have the ToW, she exhibits magical qualities, probably due to the Light Force (the only exception I can think of at the moment is TWW). Again, I think the notion of the Light Force may have been implemented by Nintendo so they could still keep Zelda's character consistent with the other games (save TWW), without having to include the Triforce fragments in every game's story.

 

[Majora's Cat]

I've stated this in my own timeline theory: Minish Cap likely comes after Spirit Tracks. The only reason I say this is because if Minish Cap is because MC takes place in a Hyrule similar to that of ALttP and other Zelda games. If you take a look at right before Wind Waker, the world would still be flooded from the goddesses' attempt to rid Hyrule of Ganon once and for all. So no - the Minish Cap definitely doesn't come before Wind Waker.

Anyhoo, here's my timeline. There's one small kink in it, but how many timelines don't?


...........................Majora's Mask --> Twilight Princess --> ALttP --> Link's Awakening --> LoZ --> AoL --> OoX
Ocarina of Time --<
...........................The Wind Waker --> Phantom Hourglass --> Spirit Tracks --> Minish Cap --> FS --> FSA


I realize there's one part of this timeline that would generally feel misplaced - Four Swords Adventures. Ganon and Vaati existed simultaneously in FSA, completely stumping timeline theorists like myself. It really doesn't make sense why Ganon would co-exist with Vaati... unless Four Swords Adventures occurred right before Ocarina of Time. There's a strong possibilty that MC, FS and FSA all took place before OoT... but that can also be disproved by my Hero's Clothes theory.

I believe that the Kokiri Tunic from Ocarina of Time is the original Hero's Clothes simply because no other Zelda games have much of a backstory for where the clothes came from and why Link is wearing them. Nintendo has left several holes in the Zelda timeline that gamers try relentlessly to patch up... then another game is released. :ugh: But the fact that the Kokiri Tunic is mostly likely the first example of the Hero's Clothes means that OoT could have likely been the first game in the timeline.

Now with that said, I can only place the Minish Cap after Spirit Tracks. We all know that in the adult timeline Wind Waker follows OoT, then Phantom Hourglass and finally Spirit Tracks. Where gamers tend to disagree on is whether MC/FS/FSA is at the end of the adult timeline or at the beginning of the whole timeline.

And yes, Anemos, I agree with what you're saying about the Light Force. It's likely that its origins trace back to before Ocarina of Time. But... that would only jumble up the rest of the timeline. What you're saying makes absolute sense, though... but I'll stick to my own timeline theory.

The Hero's Clothes theory almost proves that Ocarina of Time was the first game in the timeline, yet there are still dozens of Zelda theories that could prove if OoT was the first in the timeline or not. We really can't know for sure, and that's why I'm awaiting the Skyward Sword release to hopefully answer some of our questions.

 

[DuckNoises]

I realize there's one part of this timeline that would generally feel misplaced - Four Swords Adventures. Ganon and Vaati existed simultaneously in FSA, completely stumping timeline theorists like myself. It really doesn't make sense why Ganon would co-exist with Vaati... unless Four Swords Adventures occurred right before Ocarina of Time. There's a strong possibilty that MC, FS and FSA all took place before OoT... but that can also be disproved by my Hero's Clothes theory.

Don't worry, you're not alone. FSA as a whole makes maybe 1/3 of one sense (which makes roughly about as much sense as that sentence ).

I believe that the Kokiri Tunic from Ocarina of Time is the original Hero's Clothes simply because no other Zelda games have much of a backstory for where the clothes came from and why Link is wearing them. Nintendo has left several holes in the Zelda timeline that gamers try relentlessly to patch up... then another game is released. :ugh: But the fact that the Kokiri Tunic is mostly likely the first example of the Hero's Clothes means that OoT could have likely been the first game in the timeline.


The Hero's Clothes theory almost proves that Ocarina of Time was the first game in the timeline, yet there are still dozens of Zelda theories that could prove if OoT was the first in the timeline or not. We really can't know for sure, and that's why I'm awaiting the Skyward Sword release to hopefully answer some of our questions.

What controversies do the clothes solve? The only instances where I think the game specifically eluded to the origins of the clothes were TP and TWW, who are both non-controversial in terms of placement. I'll post further thoughts in regard to this in your thread.

 

[Locke]

On an interesting note, almost every time Zelda does not have the ToW, she exhibits magical qualities, probably due to the Light Force (the only exception I can think of at the moment is TWW). Again, I think the notion of the Light Force may have been implemented by Nintendo so they could still keep Zelda's character consistent with the other games (save TWW), without having to include the Triforce fragments in every game's story.

WW-Zelda had the same 'magic' as ST-Zelda did. It's just not displayed in WW or PH. We only learn about it when ST-Zelda prays to WW-Zelda about her magic.

and MC, do you think you could put your AT above your CT? That's what we're all used to so it always confuses me for a second to see it upside-down xD

 

[PhantomTriforce]

You have an interesting point there. When I first played The Minish Cap, I assumed that the "Light Force" is indeed the Triforce. However, as I approached the part where you go into the secret room of the sanctuary and listen to the story, I switched my thought and assumed it was the Triforce of Wisdom, to which Zelda has always been related to. But in your point, I can see that it might actually be a different thing. It is possible that the Light Force is a characteristic of Zelda in the Adult Timeline. If you take a look at my timeline theory in my signature, you can see that I places MC before the split (in other words, before OoT). But your point suggests that MC is after ST, which could by all means be true. MC is one of those games we have very little information as to where it fits on the timeline. And then comes the concern of FSA. I place FSA also before the split, but many people place it in the Child Timeline, due to the belief that FSA Ganon and OoT Ganon are the same, and must therefore come after OoT. However, Vaati makes an appearance in both MC and FSA, and this might be a bit confusing. How exactly does Vaati travel between the timelines? His case would then be like Tingle's, who makes and appearance is MM and WW, which are in opposite sides of the timeline. For this reason, I like to place MC before the split.

 

[Anemos]

I've stated this in my own timeline theory: Minish Cap likely comes after Spirit Tracks. The only reason I say this is because if Minish Cap is because MC takes place in a Hyrule similar to that of ALttP and other Zelda games. If you take a look at right before Wind Waker, the world would still be flooded from the goddesses' attempt to rid Hyrule of Ganon once and for all. So no - the Minish Cap definitely doesn't come before Wind Waker.

Anyhoo, here's my timeline. There's one small kink in it, but how many timelines don't?


...........................Majora's Mask --> Twilight Princess --> ALttP --> Link's Awakening --> LoZ --> AoL --> OoX
Ocarina of Time --<
...........................The Wind Waker --> Phantom Hourglass --> Spirit Tracks --> Minish Cap --> FS --> FSA


I realize there's one part of this timeline that would generally feel misplaced - Four Swords Adventures. Ganon and Vaati existed simultaneously in FSA, completely stumping timeline theorists like myself. It really doesn't make sense why Ganon would co-exist with Vaati... unless Four Swords Adventures occurred right before Ocarina of Time. There's a strong possibilty that MC, FS and FSA all took place before OoT... but that can also be disproved by my Hero's Clothes theory.

I believe that the Kokiri Tunic from Ocarina of Time is the original Hero's Clothes simply because no other Zelda games have much of a backstory for where the clothes came from and why Link is wearing them. Nintendo has left several holes in the Zelda timeline that gamers try relentlessly to patch up... then another game is released. :ugh: But the fact that the Kokiri Tunic is mostly likely the first example of the Hero's Clothes means that OoT could have likely been the first game in the timeline.

Now with that said, I can only place the Minish Cap after Spirit Tracks. We all know that in the adult timeline Wind Waker follows OoT, then Phantom Hourglass and finally Spirit Tracks. Where gamers tend to disagree on is whether MC/FS/FSA is at the end of the adult timeline or at the beginning of the whole timeline.

And yes, Anemos, I agree with what you're saying about the Light Force. It's likely that its origins trace back to before Ocarina of Time. But... that would only jumble up the rest of the timeline. What you're saying makes absolute sense, though... but I'll stick to my own timeline theory.

The Hero's Clothes theory almost proves that Ocarina of Time was the first game in the timeline, yet there are still dozens of Zelda theories that could prove if OoT was the first in the timeline or not. We really can't know for sure, and that's why I'm awaiting the Skyward Sword release to hopefully answer some of our questions.

I realized that I'd have to go with this when I decided to tie timeline theory into this.

If MC comes after Spirit Tracks...well...Daphnes Nohanson Hyrule puts it much better than anyone:

Ah, but child... That land will not be Hyrule.

It would be...something different.

Look at the geography! The forests are in completely different places in MC and ST! Where the forests are in ST, there is a gigantic body of water! There isn't anything there! It would take hundreds, maybe thousands of years for the ocean realm to undergo primary succession, so as to produce a forest like that! And then, where are the Minish? How do rupees get found in grass? Or Recovery Hearts? Or, in the case of ST, treasure?

No. Minish Cap has to come before Spirit Tracks. There are also quotations from Nintendo, stating that MC comes before OoT, but that is beside the point. There are so many things in the Minish Cap that occur that would change the entire series if it weren't there.

 

[PhantomTriforce]

I realized that I'd have to go with this when I decided to tie timeline theory into this.

Look at the geography! The forests are in completely different places in MC and ST! Where the forests are in ST, there is a gigantic body of water! There isn't anything there! It would take hundreds, maybe thousands of years for the ocean realm to undergo primary succession, so as to produce a forest like that! And then, where are the Minish? How do rupees get found in grass? Or Recovery Hearts? Or, in the case of ST, treasure?

No. Minish Cap has to come before Spirit Tracks. There are also quotations from Nintendo, stating that MC comes before OoT, but that is beside the point. There are so many things in the Minish Cap that occur that would change the entire series if it weren't there.

It is very possible that this is in a different part of Hyrule. The Forests and Lakes in the two games have different names. Of course, this brings up the point of Hyrule Castle, but there can be more than one forest, mountain, lake, whatever, in Hyrule.

 

[DuckNoises]

No. Minish Cap has to come before Spirit Tracks. There are also quotations from Nintendo, stating that MC comes before OoT, but that is beside the point. There are so many things in the Minish Cap that occur that would change the entire series if it weren't there.

I believe it was Aonuma who made that claim, and he wasn't the director of MC. Nintendo has had a bad history of developer quotes in regard to the timeline. Remember, the only thing that really argues an early placement of TMC is the legend of the Hero of Men, and that doesn't necessarily have to be adjacent to the MC's story itself. The events of the legend could have taken place before the split, but TMC itself does not have to. As long as the Light Force is given to Zelda in the time of the Hero of Men before the split, then TMC doesn't have to take place before the split. That way, all the Zeldas will have inherent magical abilities, entirely independent of TMC's placement.

And then comes the concern of FSA. I place FSA also before the split, but many people place it in the Child Timeline, due to the belief that FSA Ganon and OoT Ganon are the same, and must therefore come after OoT. However, Vaati makes an appearance in both MC and FSA, and this might be a bit confusing. How exactly does Vaati travel between the timelines? His case would then be like Tingle's, who makes and appearance is MM and WW, which are in opposite sides of the timeline. For this reason, I like to place MC before the split.

You can't use FSA for a basis of placement for TMC before the split, because Ganondorf betrays the Gerudo in FSA. Why would he be so revered by the Gerudo in OoT if he had betrayed them? Secondly, why would the King of Hyrule trust Ganondorf in OoT if he had caused so much havoc in FSA? In addition, if Ganondorf is sealed at the end of FSA, why is there no reference to any seal of any kind before the events of OoT? What happened to the Four Sword? There also isn't any mention of Ganondorf, so that leads me to believe that FSA couldn't have taken place before OoT.

Also, why is it necessary for Vaati to have to switch between timelines? If TMC occurs before the split, then his actions carry through into both timelines. Mosley's timeline features MC before the split, yet he has FS/FSA in the CT after TP; this works for Mosley because Vaati's seal carries through into both timelines, because Mosley has placed it before OoT. Although I do disagree with that placement of TMC, I'm merely using it to demonstrate that Vaati doesn't need to travel between timelines.

 

[Anemos]

I believe it was Aonuma who made that claim, and he wasn't the director of MC. Nintendo has had a bad history of developer quotes in regard to the timeline. Remember, the only thing that really argues an early placement of TMC is the legend of the Hero of Men, and that doesn't necessarily have to be adjacent to the MC's story itself. The events of the legend could have taken place before the split, but TMC itself does not have to. As long as the Light Force is given to Zelda in the time of the Hero of Men before the split, then TMC doesn't have to take place before the split. That way, all the Zeldas will have inherent magical abilities, entirely independent of TMC's placement.

I believe Aonuma is one of the people who has access to the Master Timeline that Shigeru Miyamoto described recently. Plus, Aonuma was describing the Four Swords series.

That's all I'll say. I don't really like timeline debates. They get, for lack of a better word, messy. With everyone not open to listening to anyone else, unless their opinion compliments yours, it becomes kind of hard for me to stay unbiased. I think staying biased is the key to theorizing, as it allows for your ideas to be tested by facts, rather than facts mixed with emotions and opinions.

But that's just me.

 

[ironknuckle1]

I believe it was Aonuma who made that claim, and he wasn't the director of MC. Nintendo has had a bad history of developer quotes in regard to the timeline. Remember, the only thing that really argues an early placement of TMC is the legend of the Hero of Men, and that doesn't necessarily have to be adjacent to the MC's story itself. The events of the legend could have taken place before the split, but TMC itself does not have to. As long as the Light Force is given to Zelda in the time of the Hero of Men before the split, then TMC doesn't have to take place before the split. That way, all the Zeldas will have inherent magical abilities, entirely independent of TMC's placement.


You can't use FSA for a basis of placement for TMC before the split, because Ganondorf betrays the Gerudo in FSA. Why would he be so revered by the Gerudo in OoT if he had betrayed them? Secondly, why would the King of Hyrule trust Ganondorf in OoT if he had caused so much havoc in FSA? In addition, if Ganondorf is sealed at the end of FSA, why is there no reference to any seal of any kind before the events of OoT? What happened to the Four Sword? There also isn't any mention of Ganondorf, so that leads me to believe that FSA couldn't have taken place before OoT.

Also, why is it necessary for Vaati to have to switch between timelines? If TMC occurs before the split, then his actions carry through into both timelines. Mosley's timeline features MC before the split, yet he has FS/FSA in the CT after TP; this works for Mosley because Vaati's seal carries through into both timelines, because Mosley has placed it before OoT. Although I do disagree with that placement of TMC, I'm merely using it to demonstrate that Vaati doesn't need to travel between timelines.

I completely agree with you here. FSA if you notice throughout the game makes many references to ALTTP through the music, map, and other little things like some of the items and the dark realm. So many times you will see FSA placed near ALTTP (but it doesnt have to) and since ALTTP has connections to games such as LOZ AOL and LA that cant happen before OOT that means it is improbable for FSA to happen before OOT.

The one thing is that it is possible for MC to happen before OOT just not FSA. In FSA the beginning script alludes to the story of MC and speaks of it as happening "Long ago" and in MC at the end you see the four sword being put in its pedestal. Now in the basic Timeline you can see that in the CT OOT then MM then TP trail each othe r with no room for games in between. So the "Long ago" spoken of in MC is so relative that we have no idea of exactly how long it has been between the time of MC and FSA and because MC and the four sword have no relation to OOT-MM-TP at all that means that MC could be placed either before OOT or sometime after TP. What im trying to point out is that either one of these placements are just as plausible.