Smertios's Timeline

[sign of table]

I won't deny that tMC can begin the timeline. I think it fits better elsewhere. But it 'can' begin the timeline. Saying that it should go tMC-FS-OoT because of an interview is bad. The manual of FSA confirms FS/FSA. With FS Link being the same Link as FSA Link.

Who here can see the huge fail in FSA-OoT?

About the MS. In OoX there are 4 ways that I know of to get the MS. 1) Get the Noble Sword from the Lost woods. Trade passwords from OoA and Farore makes it into the MS. 2) Get the broken Noble Sword from the Zora. Have it fixed. Then trade passwords from OoS to get the MS. 3) Trade passwords from OoS and get the Noble Sword. Get the broken MS from the Zora. Fix it and you have the MS. That fits for post-tWW. 4) Trade passwords from OoA and get the Noble Sword from Farore. Go to the lost woods and get the MS.

Now if you believe TP-LttP for the MS placement then you have to believe TP-LttP-OoS because of the MS placement.

Here is the problem with LttP-OoS/OoA. In the japanese translations of OoX Ganon is referred to as Daimaou by both Onox(Gorgon in the japanese) and Twinrova. When Ganon is resurrected he claims to be the Maou of Darkness. Ou means king. And Ma means great. So the title is Great King of Darkness. Or Yami no Maou. Twinrova says that she is putting the spirit in the "Yorishiro". A Yorishiro is an object that holds a soul (Or something like that). Now think for a second that the Yorishiro is the trident.

Now onward to FSA. In the FSA translation by Prime Blue when Ganon gets the trident he turns into the Yami no Maou. In the japanese text the trident is implied to be a vessel. Now imagine OoX-FSA.

Ganon gets put into the trident and gets killed by Link. The trident is later picked up by Ganondorf of FSA. The trident turns Ganondorf into the Yami no Maou. Fits perfectly, doesn't it?

In LttP in the palace of the Four Sword you can actually find the broken FS on the ground. This obviously hints for FSA-LttP.

If you're wondering where I got the translations. I got them on the LA forums. (LegendsAlliance)

The SW can only be OoT. When in the CT does the thief Ganondorf touch the triforce and become a J(y)aaku no Ou? (J(y)aaku no Ou means King of Evil in japanese)

Now me and Smertios disagree on the timeline. I believe that the amount of enemies and the boat in OoX that match up with LA mean that it should go OoX-LA. For right now my timeline is:
-----tWW/PH-OoX/LA-tMC-FS/FSA-LttP
----/
OoT
----\
-----MM-TP

With my position of LoZ/AoL unknown. Leaning towards after LttP

Now I want to say something else. In Freshly Picked Tingle's Rosy Rupeeland there are these things called Salona. They look identical to the Subrosians. At one point they say that they helped a hero defeat a demon. Hmm sound like OoS at all? TRR takes place in a completely flooded hyrule.

Now I'm sure you are going to question the canonicity (god I hope that is a real word) of TRR. In the game it gives an explanation for how the Tingle's are created. It explains why they need money. And it is a nintendo approved game.

There is less water in the present of OoA than the past. The islands around it have actually moved closer. Sound like the GDTs plan?

Oh and you say that the DTs plan thing isn't canon because it is a sidequest? So you're also saying that the Fierce Deity mask really didn't exist?

Since the MS matter so much I'm going to respond to Midna666's post.

In the GBA version of LttP you can find the broken FS in the palace of the FS.
In FSA you seal Ganon in the FS. Oh and the backstories fit each other and the geography is damn near identical. Oh and both Ganon's are called Yami no Maou. A title that no other Ganon except OoX Ganon has.

 

[Welbanks]

The manual of FSA confirms FS/FSA. With FS Link being the same Link as FSA Link.

No, it dosent, it simply implies that FSA comes sometime after FS, not directly after.

 

[sign of table]

Tell me one time in the series where it says Link and it doesn't refer to the current Link.

 

[Zemen]

Tell me one time in the series where it says Link and it doesn't refer to the current Link.

tell me one place where it DOES.

i just got done reading the back story for FSA and there is honestly no evidence to support it being the same link. it just makes it obvious that it comes after FSA which any idiot could figure out, it just never tells us how long after FSA. you said earlier that its bad to place a game on the timeline because of an interview. youre basically telling us to trust you, a fanboy, over the people interviewed, the creators. i would never do that unless they straight up said "we are wrong about what we said. this is thre truth." but i have never seen/read/heard any quotes like that and the only person i have ever seen say that the creators said there is no timeline is you, so im not gonna take your word for it.

the argument stands that you believe that FSA link is the same as FS link. do you remember how FS starts? it starts with link being TRICKED into releasing Vaati. do you know how FSA starts? it starts with link being TRICKED into releasing Vaati. now why would it make ANY sense for it to be the same link? do you think that the chosen hero to hold the triforce of courage given to him by the goddesses who has saved Hyrule would make that same mistake twice let alone twice in a pretty close amount of time (seeing as how he probably is the same age in FSA as link in FS)? doesnt make any sense at all.im sure that nintendo and miyamoto would give him a little more credit than that.

"the world of hyrule was at peace once again...or so they thought."

thats just about an exact quote of the last line in the manual. they thought they were at peace. it doesnt say how long. it could have been a day. it could have been 100 years.

you should do more research before you start talking like you know EXACTLY what youre talking about because from what i can tell about your argument, you didnt even really read the manual, you just guessed.

 

[Skull_Kid]

That's purely speculative though. The book of Mudora was there to tell the story...



If it wasn't for that one quote from the Great deku Tree, i'd agree with you here.

First of all: That quote about the book iof Mudora is pure specualtive... After the fllood, everythging about Hyrule was forgotten, everythig! Location names, etc...

And the quote from the Deku tree... It said it might work, or might not work... I agree with Zemen that this timeline is very farfetch'd

 

[Smertios]

In TP you find the Master Sword in the woods.
In ALTTP you find the Master Sword in the woods,which tells me that ALTTP takes place on the same timeline.

I thought about that for a while too. But, then, where is the ToT in LttP? And why is the TP forest south of Hyrule Castle and the LttP one north?

Who here can see the huge fail in FSA-OoT?

Exactly. I don't see any connections between OoT and TP Hyrule to the FSA one. The fact that Hyrule is an island in FSA is one of the main reasons why I believe it should be post-flood.

And LttP just fits nicely after FSA. The Deku Tree quote is more than enough to explain why the ocean dispeared from FSA to LttP.

tell me one place where it DOES.

The AoL manual, in reference to Link from LoZ;
The LA manual, in reference to Link from LttP;
MM, in reference to Link from OoT;
and the FSA intro, in reference to Link from FS.

It refers to the first hero that defeated Vaati just as 'a hero', but refers to Link, having defeated Vaati sometime before FSA. That means that Link (from FSA, because there haven't been one single time in which the developers called a different hero by the same name, maybe except for TP) had fought Vaati before. This is pretty much what happened in FS.

And please notice that both times Link only releases Vaati because the seal is getting weak...

but i have never seen/read/heard any quotes like that and the only person i have ever seen say that the creators said there is no timeline is you, so im not gonna take your word for it.

Ok, about the interviews. Here is the quote in which Aonuma, and not Miyamoto, says about FS:

BB: That’s something that, you (Bill Trinen – Localization Team) and I have talked about with the release of the Zelda compilation disc, cleaning up some of the spellings like Ganon, and making sure everything is cohesive. Maybe that’s an American thing – us wanting to know how it all works together. I guess that leads me to my next questions. How do the Links in The Four Swords Adventure relate to the overall story line? Or is it just a subchapter or something like that?

EA: The GBA Four Swords Zelda is what we’re thinking as the oldest tale in the Zelda timeline. With this one on the GameCube being a sequel to that, and taking place sometime after that.

Please notice two things. the first being the construction he used when he said about FS being "the oldest tale". He said that they are thinking about it. Which means he didn't have a timeline planned at that exact time. Later, in another interview (I didn't find it in ZL, but i'm sure ZU has it, so I'll post it as soon as ZU is back online), he said with all words that he is still "working on a timeline"...

Now, from the same interview in which he stated that FS was the "oldest tale" (and this can be interpretated different ways):

Billy Berghammer: Yesterday you announced that you were the official new producer over the entire Zelda franchise. You’ve obviously worked with the series for a long time, and with gamers, the Zelda series is held in such high regard. How do you feel about that? Are you nervous about your new position?

Eiji Aonuma: The first title that I was producer on is Four Swords Adventures. Right out of the gates I ran into a lot of problems with that – there are many things that went wrong. So, obviously I realized quickly that there are a lot of high expectations for the Zelda franchise, and that Zelda fans are expecting a lot out of me, and I know that I have a mountain of things to still learn about the franchise. So, I’m going to be going forward, talking with Mr. Miyamoto, having conversations with him as often as I can, learning more about the franchise and continuing to develop it in ways that people will look forward to.

The first Zelda title Aonuma produced was FSA! He had also worked in OoT, MM and TWW (in some of these games as the director). And that's pretty much it. He does not have to be aware of the timeline intent of the games that came before he took over! And FS is one of those...

Miyamoto never said anything about either FS or TMC coming before OoT. I don't know where you guys took that from...

Another of the many things that, IMO, prove that TMC has to come after PH are the enemies. Three kinds actually: moblins, zoras and octorocks.

Please notice that, in OoT, there are no Moblins before Ganon invades the SR. This means that Moblins were either recruited or created by Ganon in the SR (or at least after he got the triforce), which means that Moblins do not exist in the Young Timeline (and I have TP to back that up). In TMc, on the other hand, it is said that Molins existed before and were imprisoned into the bound chest, then released during the game events. So where are them in the first part of OoT??

The red zoras, at first, only appeared in the 2D games. And even though they don't appear in TMC at all, it is usefull to speculate on when they appear. There are absolutely none of them in Oot, TP, or TWW, but they are there for PH! The game marks a transition well to when the red zoras first came around. This is another reason to why the 2D games should comein the AT (just showing you that my timeline is not entirely based on geography and the quote by the Deku Tree )

And on octorocks, have you seen any land-walking octorocks in OoT, TP or TWW? No. there were only water octorocks in those games. PH is the first game that shows both types and the water ones do not exist in any of the 2D games. More evidence that they should come after PH (including TMC)...

you should do more research before you start talking like you know EXACTLY what youre talking about because from what i can tell about your argument, you didnt even really read the manual, you just guessed.

i'm still waiting for your explanation on where exactly I contradicted myself

First of all: That quote about the book iof Mudora is pure specualtive... After the fllood, everythging about Hyrule was forgotten, everythig! Location names, etc...

I meant that it is speculation to say that LttP can't follow TWW because the flood would have wiped out the history of the Seal War. Because this is never stated anywhere.

For what TWW shows, i believe it is safe to assume that the legends of the Hero of Time survived. He is referenced to all through the game...

And the quote from the Deku tree... It said it might work, or might not work... I agree with Zemen that this timeline is very farfetch'd

You are saying that you do acknowledge that it can work, but that you prefer the other way?

I too think that TMC can work before OoT, but I believe that there is more evidence for it tocome after PH...

 

[Zemen]

here is my argument to the whole FSA link being FS link. if you notice in the manual, the first story they talk about clearly is not that similar to MC. in fact, the only similar thing that this back story has with MC is that it talks about Vaati.

the story clearly says "an evil wind sorcerer named Vaati appeared and started kidnapping young maidens."

correct me if im wrong, but that NEVER happens in MC.

it also says "Then a brave young wanderer carrying only a single sword appeared."

this also didnt happen in MC. Link didnt just "appear" and he wasnt a wanderer either. he lived just outside of the castle village and he, just like in FS, is a childhood friend of Zelda. he was there (with his sword) when Vaati first attacked and his quest started right away. its not like Hyrule was in trouble for a month before Link showed up. he was there the whole time.

it also says "when the young lad took out his sword he split in to four beings."

once again, this doesnt happen in MC. he never permanantly splits into four. he uses magic to split into four only for a very short period of time, but this quote implies that he was always four beings from the moment he pulled his sword out.

all of this evidence proves one of three things.

1. either the backstory of FSA isnt talking about MC at all. therefor there would be some game not yet released that has to take place between FSA and MC (besides for FS).

or

2. the events of MC happened SO long ago that the story was changed greatly and if this is the case then you saying that it only speaks of a young lad and not link is not a solid argument because the only reason for that would be that the story had changed and no one could remember it properly.

or the final meaning and my most favorite..

3. we cant count on this manual because its already VERY inaacurate. if the whole explanation about MC doesnt even come clost to explaining MC then the rest of the manual is garbage too.

 

[Smertios]

You made your point. Just now I realized that the first part of the story in the FSA manual is not supposed to be TMC, but FS BS.

Still, my point for the second part is still valid. It clearly refers to Link from FS as Link...

 

[Skull_Kid]

No smertios, the deku tree itself says it is unlikely for it to work!Also, the fact that Hyrule is an island in FSA proves ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!

Every memory of the old Hyrule was wiped out! and it is mentioned by the King of Hyrule in WW... man, you really need to take a better view of the story

 

[Zemen]

No smertios, the deku tree itself says it is unlikely for it to work!Also, the fact that Hyrule is an island in FSA proves ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!

Every memory of the old Hyrule was wiped out! and it is mentioned by the King of Hyrule in WW... man, you really need to take a better view of the story

i agree with skull kid. the main problem you have with your theories is how you are aquiring them. you base your theories on geography and ONE quote stated in WW. these are not solid reasons. if each game had the same map as the last in its timeline then the game would be boring because there would be no new places to explore. the fact that geography changes is most likely a gameplay choice so that the games that come out feel new. research the actualy plots of the game rather than the geographies.

 

[sign of table]

and ONE quote stated in WW.

So you need more than one quote to prove that islands can take place in a flooded land?

the fact that geography changes is most likely a gameplay choice so that the games that come out feel new. research the actualy plots of the game rather than the geographies.

Sure, gameplay maps. But does the water in the background of the FSA map do anything to the gameplay? No.

Here is the main problem I have with all of the FS games not being together. In TP you do not see the FS palace ANYWHERE. Only in tMC, FS, FSA and GBA LttP do you see the palace of the FS.

Vaati gets sealed in the FS and is forgotten about for thousands of years from FS to FSA? Look at the FS map and the FSA map. They look identical from the angle you see from FS. I'd post a pic but Zeldainformer is still down.

Give me an explanation for FSA being an island. Give me an explanation for the islands coming closer to eachother in OoA.

You say using geography as evidence is bad but you place LttP after TP because the MS is in a forest in both games?

 

[Zemen]

So you need more than one quote to prove that islands can take place in a flooded land? Sure, gameplay maps. But does the water in the background of the FSA map do anything to the gameplay? No.

Here is the main problem I have with all of the FS games not being together. In TP you do not see the FS palace ANYWHERE. Only in tMC, FS, FSA and GBA LttP do you see the palace of the FS.

Vaati gets sealed in the FS and is forgotten about for thousands of years from FS to FSA? Look at the FS map and the FSA map. They look identical from the angle you see from FS. I'd post a pic but Zeldainformer is still down.

Give me an explanation for FSA being an island. Give me an explanation for the islands coming closer to eachother in OoA.

You say using geography as evidence is bad but you place LttP after TP because the MS is in a forest in both games?

so based on this theory, since ALTTP obviously comes RIGHT after FSA, youre saying that if the games do go together and if MC and FS go before OoT like the creators have stated, then that means that ALTTP comes before OoT. haha thats so wrong.

just about everyone on this site will agree with me except for you and this one other guy who is probably a friend of yours.

 

[sign of table]

Aonuma is the one who said "FS might be first". Aonuma later said that he didn't even have anything to do with FS.

LttP should go after FSA. Different Links, of course, but there are so many similarities that can't be overlooked. Both storyline and geography.

Now in the FSA BS when it says Zelda's childhood friend. You seriously think that does not refer to the current Zelda?


Pretty much everyone on ZU would agree with me and Smertios about this. Hell most of the people on ZI and LA/ZL would agree too. Oh and that FS is first comment happened long before they finished making the game. Oh and this:

if MC and FS go before OoT like the creators have stated,

Is taking my words completely out of context. Please don't do that. It isn't very nice.

 

[Zemen]

Aonuma is the one who said "FS might be first". Aonuma later said that he didn't even have anything to do with FS.

LttP should go after FSA. Different Links, of course, but there are so many similarities that can't be overlooked. Both storyline and geography.

Now in the FSA BS when it says Zelda's childhood friend. You seriously think that does not refer to the current Zelda?


Pretty much everyone on ZU would agree with me and Smertios about this. Hell most of the people on ZI and LA/ZL would agree too. Oh and that FS is first comment happened long before they finished making the game. Oh and this: Is taking my words completely out of context. Please don't do that. It isn't very nice.

youre assuming that just because it says Zelda, that its talking about the current Zelda.

EVERY SINGLE PRINCESS IS NAME ZELDA. if there is an ancient legend in Hyrule that speaks of a princess then its obviousl about Zelda since every newborn girl is named Zelda. stop assuming. use facts, not assumptions. youre using the manual as your main argument and its REALLY annoying. you or whoever that other guy is were arguing that the BS was about MC and then you later agreed it wasnt so youre contradicting yourself and still using the same argument. that just makes you look bad. and please stop referring to maps. we already agreed that the maps are just made different so that each game is unique. who gives a flying fungus if the map is an island or not? not a single game states anything about how its geography has changed EXCEPT for WW and PH. other than that the only reason maps are ever brought up is because people like you WAY over think things.

 

[sign of table]

you or whoever that other guy is were arguing that the BS was about MC and then you later agreed it wasnt so youre contradicting yourself and still using the same argument.

Smertios. I blame the fact that they are different because tMC was released after FSA.

EVERY SINGLE PRINCESS IS NAME ZELDA.

For you, though you have to believe that tMC was the sleeping Zelda from the AoL manual. Which makes no sense because she was put to sleep over the triforce and there was no triforce in tMC or FS.

we already agreed that the maps are just made different so that each game is unique. who gives a flying fungus if the map is an island or not?

We agreed that the maps are different for gameplay purposes. You've yet to prove that the map being a tiny island has ANYTHING to do with gameplay. I'll PM you with information on the AoL japanese manual so you can see how ridiculous tMC as first really is.