I agree the puzzles could have been better,like Tp's sacard grove puzzle,it took me awhile to figure it out.Other than that skyward sword was an amazing game and by far better than twilight princess in my opinion.
Skyward Sword Disappointing????
- Thread starter thefloydios
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In that respect yes I would agree that Skyward Sword made it blatantly obvious where to go (I think TP did as well sometimes but not as often or obvious), but when I think of nonlinear I think of multiple paths through the main quest, having multiple paths through dungeons, and freedom to explore at any point in time.
Skyward Sword allows you to complete the Song of Hero in different orders and by mixing the order there are six unique paths through the game. Twilight Princess allows for only one order through the main quest. Different paths through the main quest is the thing I usually am refering to when I say a Zelda game is linear or nonlinear. In this respect there can't be a more linear game than Twilight Princess with only one possible order. For example a nonlinear game by my definition would be Ocarina of Time. In that game I have found 274 unique orders through which to progress through the dungeons and minidungeons (http://zeldadungeon.net/forum/showthread.php?27937-Dungeon-Orders).
Regarding multiple paths through dungeons I actually think Skyward Sword, while mostly linear, was more nonlinear than Twilight Princess as well. Almost every dungeon in Twilight Princess to the best of my recollection only has one order through which to do things. Skyward Sword has three dungeons that allow for some freedom: Skyview Temple, Sandship, and Sky Keep. In the Skyview Temple you can enter and complete the water rising rooms in either order, in the Sandship you can power up the generators in either order, and obviously Sky Keep is just full of possibilities. I've noticed trends overall in the series towards more linearity in dungeons- one subtle thing is that now there are virtually no instances of being able to possess more than one key at a time (the only time it happened in the last 3 console games I think was Hyrule Castle in TP). This leads to linearity because now there's only one way to open a door. For instance in the Water Temple of OOT (by far the most nonlinear 3d dungeon ever before Sky Keep) you could hold up to four keys at once, and so there were multiple points where you have to open a door and so you can get one key or another one to open that particular door.
One thing that's almost unique to Twilight Princess (that I couldn't stand) was how there were multiple points early on in the game (before the master sword) at which the game was set up so that you couldn't even explore or backtrack to areas you already visited if you wanted to. Every tear of light quest basically traps you in the wolf form so that you literally have no choice but to progress forward with the main quest (as opposed to maybe hunting golden bugs as human Link or anything else that's only possible as a human). Other examples would be how the bridge of Eldin disappears before the Lanayru tear of light quest so that you literally have to move forward in the quest, and the entire time you are stuck as wolf Link between completing the Lakebed Temple and getting the Master Sword.
I understand how you can say Skyward Sword is more linear though. I think this really just comes down to how we define linear and nonlinear. From my perspective though there can't be something more linear than Twilight Princess so by default Skyward Sword is relatively less linear.
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Well, not exactly. I thought they were great games, but they were met with negative critical reception from fans, oftentimes for illogical reasons. Sure, I had a few qualms with TP, but I didn't think the game was god-awful, and I didn't notice many "faults" in the game until I visited forums sites and IGN.
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Mrstupes
Guest
Have to say I am surprised by some of the remarks here. Not that people didn't like the game, that is understandable. its impossible to make a game every fan will like. But when have Zeldas not been Linear? Not counting the old 2d ones. Not talking about sequence breaking here. All 3d zelda games for the most part are very guided experiences. They have given you a illusion of freedom to make choices, but for the most part you have to hit the certain beats in the game to advance forward. Twilight princess tricked you into thinking you can explore everywhere, but just closed off and open the areas deepening on your progress in the game. Zelda won't ever be sky rim, Nintendo will always make it a guided experience for the most part. But I do agree the worlds could of been bigger. And more variety.
I do agree that the exploration of the over world is disappointing. Althought they did design interesting ways of exploring every nook and cranny of those areas. I prefer that idea to just the wide open space of twilight princess with nothing but a empty field and some enemies thrown around there. I think it made the areas more memorable to be honest. The fact that they were like dungeons game them more character, instead of a flat plane I ride a horse on for 5 minutes.
I will say this, and this is true of all zelda games for me. I have almost No desire to do side quests in SS. Its always a fetch quest or "hey link Pumpkins" "hey link I dropped my pen in the clouds can you get it" Thankfully I had scrapper there to cheer me up dammit! I wish they would just make up random missions for the side quests. Like place a group of enemies in a section of the forest, having them guard the Fun Fun island guys wheel. You could change some of the emery types as well in a side quest.. Like the bokoblins in the enemy hoard fight with ghirahim. Having them carry bombs or become super fast is a tiny adjustment that adds some flavor to enemies we seen. OR USE THE TIME STONES in side quests! The best thing they came up with and they don't use it at all in side quests. Its always just Talk to the potion guy cause the cat is keeping him up at night. Or Balance pumpkins.
The dungeons were I guess easy, but I don't know if thats a good or bad thing. I think they are just designed well and communicated in a way to build upon what you have done in the game already. I have to replay it on hero mode and look at it again. I will say that the Triforce Dungeon IS GENIUS!. It is Such a simple idea but works so well in the template of a dungeon, Easily my favorite dungeon. I wish that creative thinking was in the other ones. Also the time stones were the portal moment for me. I just once again wish they were constantly used. You could see they had so many great ideas for those, but I guess had to have another fire dungeon instead. I don't care just make up a story excuse that ghirahim put time stones in every dungeon and over world to try and find something in the past.. those things had so much potential!
Also the bosses are the best or some of the best in the series. I wanna marry Koloktos and have his 6 arm babies. It's obvious combat was the Major focus of this game. Ghirahim is my new favorite Villian! How can you NOT Love that they finally Brought David Bowie into Zelda.
I don't know I am not the most critical person, unless it is just not fun at all for me to play. Dowsing was a pain in the ***. I will say I do appreciate the time to sword to be much shorter than TP. I hope for the next one for something that just gets you into the action faster. ALSO I HATED those Stone tablets in the dungeons that would just Give away the big puzzle in the dungeon. I purposely avoided them after the first one. I loved the game, and died on the last boss 20 times cause I suck.
I do agree that the exploration of the over world is disappointing. Althought they did design interesting ways of exploring every nook and cranny of those areas. I prefer that idea to just the wide open space of twilight princess with nothing but a empty field and some enemies thrown around there. I think it made the areas more memorable to be honest. The fact that they were like dungeons game them more character, instead of a flat plane I ride a horse on for 5 minutes.
I will say this, and this is true of all zelda games for me. I have almost No desire to do side quests in SS. Its always a fetch quest or "hey link Pumpkins" "hey link I dropped my pen in the clouds can you get it" Thankfully I had scrapper there to cheer me up dammit! I wish they would just make up random missions for the side quests. Like place a group of enemies in a section of the forest, having them guard the Fun Fun island guys wheel. You could change some of the emery types as well in a side quest.. Like the bokoblins in the enemy hoard fight with ghirahim. Having them carry bombs or become super fast is a tiny adjustment that adds some flavor to enemies we seen. OR USE THE TIME STONES in side quests! The best thing they came up with and they don't use it at all in side quests. Its always just Talk to the potion guy cause the cat is keeping him up at night. Or Balance pumpkins.
The dungeons were I guess easy, but I don't know if thats a good or bad thing. I think they are just designed well and communicated in a way to build upon what you have done in the game already. I have to replay it on hero mode and look at it again. I will say that the Triforce Dungeon IS GENIUS!. It is Such a simple idea but works so well in the template of a dungeon, Easily my favorite dungeon. I wish that creative thinking was in the other ones. Also the time stones were the portal moment for me. I just once again wish they were constantly used. You could see they had so many great ideas for those, but I guess had to have another fire dungeon instead. I don't care just make up a story excuse that ghirahim put time stones in every dungeon and over world to try and find something in the past.. those things had so much potential!
Also the bosses are the best or some of the best in the series. I wanna marry Koloktos and have his 6 arm babies. It's obvious combat was the Major focus of this game. Ghirahim is my new favorite Villian! How can you NOT Love that they finally Brought David Bowie into Zelda.
I don't know I am not the most critical person, unless it is just not fun at all for me to play. Dowsing was a pain in the ***. I will say I do appreciate the time to sword to be much shorter than TP. I hope for the next one for something that just gets you into the action faster. ALSO I HATED those Stone tablets in the dungeons that would just Give away the big puzzle in the dungeon. I purposely avoided them after the first one. I loved the game, and died on the last boss 20 times cause I suck.
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Brad Wickliffe
Guest
this was helpful. Thanks. I had a lot of trouble understanding this mess
Why don't the 2d games count? Plus Phantom Hourglass allowed for different dungeon progressions. The original game had the level of freedom Skyrim does, but why do they have to limit us now? Every Zelda game has been guided though because even the first one numbered the dungeons. In a way that highly suggests an order even more so than how Ocarina of Time lists out Forest, Fire, Water, Shadow, Spirit in that order. It's not like there are numbers attached to those. By sequence breaking what do you mean? If you mean using glitches to get to a place before you're intended to be there based on the limits of the game, then you have to admit that Ocarina of Time is nonlinear.
There is no illusion to make choices in that game- there actually are choices. Once you have the hookshot you can enter any of the Forest, Fire, or Water Temples in any order you wish. You can very easily complete the Fire Temple before entering the Forest Temple, the Water Temple without entering the Fire Temple, the Shadow and Spirit Temples can be flipped, and you can even beat the Spirit Temple without even entering the Fire Temple (going Forest, Water, Spirit, Fire, Shadow). Those are real choices, and none of them require any glitches whatsoever.
IMO the only real Zelda games are LOZ and ALTTP. OOT is an imitation of one that scaled back the freedom significantly, and almost everything since has completely turned its back on what was originally the main idea behind LOZ. It was supposed to be a nonlinear sandbox game in contrast to Super Mario Bros. linearity. What happened since then?
@TheBlueReptile- Skyward Sword isn't much more linear than Wind Waker, it's more linear than Majora's Mask (comparable though), its more nonlinear than Twilight Princess, and OOT practically makes it look like the whole game is a hallway.
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Mrstupes
Guest
This is all true, I forgot about that with phantom hourglass. Well I said the old 2d ones dont count is because the Nintendo of then is not the nintendo we know today. They are all about making sure the player can finish the game no matter the skill level.
THere is a reason why they have all the sheik stones and the hint stones in the dungeons. Also Fi reminding you of every single thing, then the homing beacons. Which I dont mind, but they have to give more experienced players like us an option to turn off or not use these super guide like features. In a way, the condensed and small over world could of been a way to not confuse new players who could potentially get lost in a giant world like Twilight princess. I mean you essential with that dowsing tool, know exactly where you are going no matter where you are in the over world. Which I still believe is for new players so they dont get lost.
Although I have heard it was because thats the only way they could finish the game on time. Apparently they spent like 2 years on tech maybe and the other 3 on the game.
I mean you can argue whether or not they are non linear. I dont want to get that deep into a debate into this, just because it can go around in circles for hours. We can agree the earlier games were definitely more non linear than the later ones for the most part. Also did put more into the idea of exploration and the different lands you visited. I will say that besides something as being able to go into another dungeon, Windwaker really for me personally has that true sense of exploration. Finding all these little islands and wondering what the hell is on this. Thats what had me so excited for the flying in skyward sword, but that sky has nothing really to explore. that is more disappointing to me than the overworld. Because the sky had so much potential. when you defeat the whale in the thunder head and see him fly around. That is gorgeous and such an amazing visual experience. I was hoping of seeing other creatures like that in the sky.
I honestly wouldnt worry too much, I bet the next zelda would have a proper over world. I have a feeling this one was kind of rushed towards the end, dont forget they added wii motion plus in the middle of development. Then they changed the graphical style too something more exaggerated, because they wanted enemies to telegraph their moves.
I agree with what you say very much. 90% of my complaints about Skyward Sword could have easily been completely avoided if the desigers added more options such as turning off the bug/treasure notifications, speed up dialogue, skipping cutscenes in normal mode, allowing you to control swimming with the control stick, shutting up Fi, etc. I agree that there are some things about game that seem really rushed, and the lack of some options make this clear. I mean could they really have spent some serious time testing the game without realizing that the bug/treasure notifications interrupting gameplay would annoy some people?
It's fine that the game needs to be beginner friendly, but it shouldn't do so in a way that negatively impacts your or my experience of the game. I couldn't agree more about the overworlds of Wind Waker or Skyward Sword. Wind Waker truly did have a terrific sense of exploration and freedom. I'd say it was fairly nonlinear despite having to do the dungeons in a single order because many required parts of the main quest can be completed at radically different points in the game. The Triforce quest is meant to be last, but you can easily get two pieces before even getting the third pearl and get many other pieces surprisingly early. The quests for the power bracelets and iron boots also allow for some choice in the order you complete them. I did think one thing held back exploration- at the beginning of the game you can't go wherever you want until you've gotten the first two pearls. With the whole big sea I wanted to go and explore right away.
I definitely agree that Skyward Sword's overworld was really disappointing. When I first saw flying I too thought that it would be like Wind Waker except being able to steer along another axis. I was excited and hoped for at least a dozen things along the lines of the islands of Wind Waker, but there just wasn't that much going on.
Finally I would like to say that I understand that exploration doesn't necessarily require nonlinearity, but I think it helps. Being able to do dungeons in different orders (something not possible in a 3d game since Majora's Mask) adds some value for me because I can explore possibilities. To be clear in Majora's Mask you can beat Stone Tower Temple before entering the Great Bay Temple (you need the hookshot and can just barely reach a tree to cross the octorok river). Another thing that's disappeared that I think added exploration value was how items led to quest progression rather than dungeon completion. For instance in Majora's Mask it's possible to beat the dungeons in reverse order because items and epona are the only things needed to reach new areas, and it's interesting because additional items can lead to different ways to beat the dungeons.
That's all fair. It's just that Nintendo always preaches that their games will always place gameplay above all else, but then they have been moving the series in a direction in which the story is so important that it needs to limit player choice. I mean when I see things like "Skyward Sword to contain over 100 minutes of cutscenes" (http://www.zeldainformer.com/2011/09/skyward-sword-to-contain-100-minutes-of-cutscenes.html) I wonder if Nintendo really does place gameplay over all else. Since it comes down to the fact that I believe nonlinearity is inherently superior with regards to Zelda games, I agree that there isn't much for us to discuss. Basically if you are aggravated by me resisting change, my comeback would be I'm aggravated by the games becoming more like a movie than a unique, individual experience.
Linearity versus nonlinearity is a big deal IMO. It's very influential in how the games can be played. The change in design with regards to nonlinearity versus linearity from the original Legend of Zelda to Twilight Princess (I would say Skyward Sword was a step in the right direction, but that the series was so far off track that it didn't matter) is so pronounced that I think it would be the equivalent of an Elder Scrolls game in twenty years being nothing but scripted events in a set order. Of course Zelda games are still good, but IMO linearity is severely limiting what they can be gameplay-wise.
Nonlinearity was central in Miyamoto's vision. In an interview he once said, "We started to work on The Legend of Zelda at the same time as Super Mario Bros, and since the same teams did both games, we tried to separate the different ideas. Super Mario Bros should be linear, The Legend of Zelda should be the total opposite" (http://www.miyamotoshrine.com/theman/interviews/230403.shtml). The question he answered was, "What visions and goals did you have when you started to develop the game?" If being the total opposite of linear was the only thing important enough to mention when asked about visions and goals for developing the game, I think that's pretty important for how the series should be developed. Since the series has shunned nonlinear progression lately, I struggle to call them true Zelda games. Since nonlinearity is so central to the idea of Zelda, IMO Skyrim is closer to being a true Zelda game than Skyward Sword. Apparently the vision for what a Zelda game is has been lost over the years.
Finally I fail to see how Skyward Sword wouldn't be a better video game if it incorporated the suggestions I made in this thread to make it more nonlinear. http://zeldadungeon.net/forum/showthread.php?28366-TP-and-SS-Are-a-Kick-in-the-Groin-to-Anyone-Who-Likes-Nonlinear-Progression I only talk about SS in the last 3 paragraphs btw.
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Whoa there people, i have noticed that a bunch of you HATE the games that came after OoT because they will never be as great. I have to disagree with this for i do not see any problems with these newer zelda games. Comparing OoT with the rest of the games and then calling them crap is a big no no on my part. It seems to me that ever since Skyward Sword came out, all the OoT fanboys are squealing "OoT is the best and Skyward Sword has failed". This has lead me to believe that OoT is being threatened by SS.
Now back on topic, i felt Skyward Sword was a new, deep experience that brought new things to the table. Sure it referenced a few of the older titles but that was because this game is essentially a prequel to most of the Zelda games we know and love (not to mention the 25 years zelda has been around). A few other complaints i have heard were the puzzles. "oh they were too easy", yeah maybe if you looked at a guide. I struggled on my first play-through, i had no idea how to solve this puzzle or what to do next. I can't believe that Skyward Sword was disappointing to anyone and i most certainly do not understand why anyone that says "OoT is the best and no other game will ever compare to it" would be considered a true Legend of Zelda fan.
Now back on topic, i felt Skyward Sword was a new, deep experience that brought new things to the table. Sure it referenced a few of the older titles but that was because this game is essentially a prequel to most of the Zelda games we know and love (not to mention the 25 years zelda has been around). A few other complaints i have heard were the puzzles. "oh they were too easy", yeah maybe if you looked at a guide. I struggled on my first play-through, i had no idea how to solve this puzzle or what to do next. I can't believe that Skyward Sword was disappointing to anyone and i most certainly do not understand why anyone that says "OoT is the best and no other game will ever compare to it" would be considered a true Legend of Zelda fan.
JuicieJ
SHOW ME YA MOVES!
Agreed. These people have never reacted this strongly and defensively before. They only laughed at those who said any new Zelda game was better before. This time around, though, they've seen just how many people are in consensus that SS is the best and are freaking out about it, and no doubt some of it has to do with them knowing it's the one Zelda game that can beat OoT. But instead of coming to terms with that, they shut off all logical reasoning and go into nostalgia raeg mode, shouting "OOT #1!!!!!!1!1!11!!" It's really quite annoying. Of course, not all of those who say OoT is still the best are doing this, but the ones that are make a pretty considerable amount.
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Lol that's basically the truth about OOT fanboys. That's the reason I love to call SS the Anti-OOT because its goes extremely hard against OOT.
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i definately agree. when i posted this it was after i beat skyward sword and i felt that it was a very dissapointing game. im not biased toward old zelda games because i loved the new ones in the series. i loved majoras mask, and twilight princess. just this game was not very good for me. i hate how the discussion has turned into an old vs new battle, this wasnt what i intended. i just want to know if you agree/disagree with my points. and if you looked at a guide thats great, not everyone is great at puzzle solving, but dont make it sound like the puzzles were hard as a fact. by saying yeah maybe if you looked up a guide, it makes it sound like just because i thought the puzzles were easy i looked up a guide. this is not the case, i never look up guides because i think they ruin the game. i thought the puzzles were easy and i never looked up a guide once.
I guess I should apologize for putting this off track. I don't know how me praising LOZ and ALTTP in comparison to the modern games can lead to three consecutive posts saying something about OOT fanboys are hating on SS but whatever. I'm sorry but I just feel that the overall direction of the series is misguided in the linearity vs. nonlinearity aspect and this holds SS back from being as good as it could have been. I probably should have saved this for another discussion, but it does explain why Skyward Sword disappointed me.
In response to your counterargument about the difficulty of the puzzles I agree. The longest anything stumped me was 3 minutes in the Earth Temple figuring out I had to bomb the wall to proceed. I never looked at a guide during my first playthrough, and I felt that the overall difficulty of the puzzles was very low. Even Twilight Princess, which is one of my least favorite Zelda games, had me confused at a couple of points so I think the puzzles were more challenging in that game.
Also in response to what Atheistbigred said. It's incredibly easy for Skyward Sword or any game ever made for that matter to be disappointing. My expectations simply weren't met. The game is a 9.5 in my book but I wanted a 10. I really just want a perfect Zelda game and we've been getting nothing but very good ones since ALTTP IMO. Some are closer to perfection than others IMO but that doesn't really matter. Since nonlinearity really matters to me it's just very obvious what the game could have done differently for me. If the game was slightly tweaked then I probably would have played through it five or six times by now instead of being midway through my third playthrough. It being linear (and needlessly so at several points) severely hurt the replay value for me.
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I notice that OoT is something that every new zelda game seems to be compared to. I also hear that many fans have a nostalgia factor involved, which i don't have, because My introduction to console games outside of PC happened on Gamecube with wind waker, but TP was my first zelda game i actually understood. Personally, my favorite zelda game is SS but OoT is for sure in my top 3 zelda games, having played it VC and 3DS.