Side Timeline Problem

[skybird11]

sorry if timeline is not the right word but this thread focuses on ALttP, LA, LoZ, and AoL (maybe OoX as well) which is why i called it a "side" timeline.

many people deny additional placement on the main (OoT) timeline because ganon dies on of each branch. well same goes for this side timeline. i think its generally accepted that ALttP/LA--LoZ/AoL (people may put OoX between ALttP and LA) is accurate but is it really? ganon dies in ALttP but is seen again in LoZ. the only ressurection in between is in OoX but he is killed again later on. so how is this timeline portion accurate?

if no answers are found then maybe considder the placement of other games on the OoT timeline, leaving out the "ganon is dead and hasn't been resserected" argument.

 

[Garo]

ALttP/OoX/LA--LoZ/AoL is the accepted order.

In the Oracles series, Ganon is resurrected by Twinrova, and subsequently "killed". However, as he was not defeated by the Silver Arrows or the Master Sword, he was not "killed"; he was simply banished. Thus he is able to return in The Legend of Zelda to kidnap the Princess before being killed by the Silver Arrows.

 

[skybird11]

it looked like he was destroyed to me. and if he was bannished then how does he escape? the ganon from OoX is a "mindless" ganon and thats probly not the case for the LoZ ganon

 

[Garo]

it looked like he was destroyed to me. and if he was bannished then how does he escape? the ganon from OoX is a "mindless" ganon and thats probly not the case for the LoZ ganon

How Ganon escapes banishment is an odd subject indeed, but he always manages it somehow - Ocarina of Time to Wind Waker, for instance.

Sure, the OoX Ganon was "mindless", but he fights and appears in a manner very similar to his appearance in the original game.

Somebody may have a better explanation than me, but this is how I understand it. And at any rate, it is Word of God that A Link to the Past is a prequel to the original two games, and that Link's Awakening is a sequel to A Link to the Past. The Oracle games' opening and closing connect them to A Link to the Past and Link's Awakening respectively.

 

[BamaLynx]

This may or may not be the right way to look at it, but the way I have always viewed the Ganondorf/Ganon aspect of the timeline was to make the following assumptions:

1) Ganondorf can be killed by the Master Sword
2) Ganon and Ganondorf are separate entities, and Ganon can live-on even after Ganondorf has been killed
3) Ganon can only be killed by the Silver Arrows

In addition to these assumptions...the Hyrule you see in LoZ and AoL is a fairly barren and poorly populated Hyrule that seems to suggest a young, "new" land; which is what you find after WW and PH.

Therefore, my timeline places LoZ/AoL in the Adult Timeline after PH, while ALttP/LA/OoX are in the Child Timeline after TP.....this leads to there being one dead Ganondorf and one dead Ganon on each side of the timeline:

Child Timeline - Ganondorf killed by MS in TP, Ganon killed by Silver Arrows in ALttP
Adult Timeline - Ganondorf killed by MS in OoT, Ganon killed by Silver Arrows in LoZ

Critique away.....

 

[Capitaine]

In my opinion:

1) Ganon is Ganondorf (and "Ganon" is his nickname as noted in the ALttP manual).
2) Ganon is (or became) a demon.
3) Ganon's Gerudo form is his real form.
4) Ganon's beast form is his "true form", reflecting the nature of his spirit (like how Link turns into a bunny/wolf).
5) The Master Sword only banishes evil; it killed him in TWW because he no longer had the Triforce of Power and it killed him in TP because it banished (or disabled) his evil powers (thus disallowing him to revive himself).
6) The Silver Arrows are the only things that can kill Ganon because demons are terribly allergic to silver.

But naturally, killing a demon with Silver Arrows does not mean it can't return. In Japanese mythology, demons are always able to return after being killed (so ALttP - LoZ does make sense).

Link was able to kill Ganon in OoX without using the Master Sword or Silver Arrows simply because his resurrection wasn't done right and he did not have the correct body. He was basically as mortal as everyone else (like he was at the end of TWW).

 

[skybird11]

@garoxicon im sure it takes a lot of planning to to steal the ToP and kidnap zelda (as stated in the LoZ backstory). and why would link need the ToW to beat ganon in LoZ but not in OoX?

@bamalynx the official "side timeline" is ALttP/LA--LoZ/AoL. so those games cant be split up. fans just theorise the placement of OoX as ALttP/OoX/LA and not as ALttP/LA/OoX. also, thats a lot of assumptions that could be true or false.

 

[BamaLynx]

@bamalynx the official "side timeline" is ALttP/LA--LoZ/AoL. so those games cant be split up. fans just theorise the placement of OoX as ALttP/OoX/LA and not as ALttP/LA/OoX. also, thats a lot of assumptions that could be true or false.

Yes, you're exactly right. An "assumption" is by definition a statement(s) used as a premise for a specific argument but may not othewise be accepted. So, it is merely one opinion in the long list of Zelda timeline opinions. But I'm pretty sure that there is no official "side timeline". The original developer quotes that placed ALttP as a prequel to LoZ/AoL really have no meaning at this point with all the retcon that has gone on in the series. There is nothing "official" about anything in the Zelda timeline except for the direct sequels.

 

[JuicieJ]

Idk why they made Ganon die in ALttP, but it's a confirmed sequel to the original game, so that's all that really matters. (Plus, most everything with the first two games doesn't make sense with everything new. It's almost like the originals don't exist...)

 

[Caleb, Of Asui]

But naturally, killing a demon with Silver Arrows does not mean it can't return. In Japanese mythology, demons are always able to return after being killed (so ALttP - LoZ does make sense).

That's the best explanation I've heard for why Ganon's able to come back in The Legend of Zelda. Really, I find it silly that people say he wasn't actually killed in A Link to the Past. Play the game by itself, or watch a video of it, and observe how he's just as thoroughly obliterated. The only reason to think he hasn't died is because he's alive in the game that we've been told comes later.

The best explanation for why Ganondorf can be killed in Twilight Princess (or The Wind Waker, but I don't think any of the original games can fit very well on that timeline) is that there's some sort of disconnect between the entities of the human Ganondorf and the beast Ganon, although they originated as the same being. It's interesting to note the differences between Ganondorf's transformation into Ganon (in Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess, note that this only occurs once per timeline) and the (chronologically) later games' blue pig Ganon who resembles Ganondorf's human form far less, mainly in color. Back to the once-per-timeline thing, you could say the incident where Ganondorf becomes beast Ganon (using the Triforce of Power) creates the separate entity that lives within him, but is eventually able to roam on its own after his human form has died. You might connect this with the fact that when Ganondorf turns into Ganon, he seems to lose control and become violent, perhaps because he's being controlled by beast Ganon's mind rather than human Ganondorf's mind.

 

[JuicieJ]

That's the best explanation I've heard for why Ganon's able to come back in The Legend of Zelda. Really, I find it silly that people say he wasn't actually killed in A Link to the Past. Play the game by itself, or watch a video of it, and observe how he's just as thoroughly obliterated. The only reason to think he hasn't died is because he's alive in the game that we've been told comes later.

Well, um, he was obliterated in LoZ, as well (and in the same way), but he was able to be revived in AoL, so...

The best explanation for why Ganondorf can be killed in Twilight Princess (or The Wind Waker, but I don't think any of the original games can fit very well on that timeline) is that there's some sort of disconnect between the entities of the human Ganondorf and the beast Ganon, although they originated as the same being. It's interesting to note the differences between Ganondorf's transformation into Ganon (in Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess, note that this only occurs once per timeline) and the (chronologically) later games' blue pig Ganon who resembles Ganondorf's human form far less, mainly in color. Back to the once-per-timeline thing, you could say the incident where Ganondorf becomes beast Ganon (using the Triforce of Power) creates the separate entity that lives within him, but is eventually able to roam on its own after his human form has died. You might connect this with the fact that when Ganondorf turns into Ganon, he seems to lose control and become violent, perhaps because he's being controlled by beast Ganon's mind rather than human Ganondorf's mind.

I don't really see why that would be plausible. Exactly what would cause Ganon to become a separate entity? If Ganondorf and Ganon are the same entity, why would you think they would separate? That would require the form of Ganon to turn into a spirit, or something. But that's not the case. Ganondorf can just transform back-and-forth. And Ganondorf never "loses control and becomes violent" when he turns into Ganon. He's already violent when he's Ganondorf. Just look at what he did to Link in WW. He beat the crap out of him! Out of a little kid! I'd hardly call that non-violent. And just look at TP Ganondorf and how ruthless he was. He's just as violent as Ganondorf as he is Ganon.

 

[skybird11]

Idk why they made Ganon die in ALttP, but it's a confirmed sequel to the original game, so that's all that really matters. (Plus, most everything with the first two games doesn't make sense with everything new. It's almost like the originals don't exist...)

dont you mean prequel? ALttP preceads LoZ, chronologically.

but yea i guess the whole thing is just nintendo logic. it'll mess with your head man...

 

[JuicieJ]

dont you mean prequel? ALttP preceads LoZ, chronologically.

but yea i guess the whole thing is just nintendo logic. it'll mess with your head man...

Oh, I had LoZ in mind when I said "sequel". My bad.

 

[skybird11]

lol, yea. that happens, sometimes.

 

[Red Baron]

I would say that most people supporting a "side timeline" only do so as there isn't enough obvious and conclusive evidence to place it on either confirmed timeline. I don't look at it as a permanent construction, merely a temporary holding place until the games can be put in more conclusive location. Whether information leading to this ever appears is another debate.

On another topic, I had always assumed that Ganondorf/Ganon had some level of separation between them. My first game was OoT (though by the time I finished the game I had some knowledge of previous titles), and when Ganondorf transforms into Ganon at the end (and a new title card is used to announce it) I assumed Ganon was different on some level. His more simple animalistic form (compared to the human Ganondorf) to me suggested something more pure, some unlocking/tapping of triforce power.
However recent games with Ganondorf have either omitted Ganon (wind waker) or portrayed him differently (Twilight Princess). So in conclusion I would say that the definite relationship between Ganondorf and Ganon hasn't been fully explored, if there really is one.