Should the Overall Combat Battle Speed Increase?

[Guest_1]

Some of the bosses in SS used the item from the dungeon, but these were still action-packed fights, and bosses like Ghirahim and Demise were a real return to the older days before items were the focus of the fights. The only bosses (besides Tentalus) that used the TWW/TP style battle were overworld bosses. However, even these were a bit more diverse in how they played out. It wasn't just a simple matter of hitting the bosses weak point for the most part. It was a legit challenge to take them down, whereas TWW and TP's bosses were often easier than normal fights in the game. The bosses in SS had a balance between action and puzzle fights, and that's exactly what should happen in Zelda.

I'll agree with you on the matter of Ghirahim and Demise, but aside from a few bosses, I felt it didn't really deviate from tradition all that mich. I did enjoy their implementation of the Skyward Strike/Sword Beam, though. Anyway, not to detract from the thread, but don't get me wrong- I didn't think they were bad. I just didn't think they brought as much change as was promised. I found some of them fun and some of them challenging, and it was a step up from the lack of challenge the previous 3D games had, but I think more needs to be done than just speed up how quickly you can stab something dead. ;D

 

[JuicieJ]

...I think more needs to be done than just speed up how quickly you can stab something dead. ;D

If that's the only difference you think there is, then that's pretty shallow thinking.

 

[Guest_1]

If that's the only difference you think there is, then that's pretty shallow thinking.

I can't really see how wanting more variation in combat as opposed to speed alone is shallow thinking, but to each his own.

 

[JuicieJ]

I can't really see how wanting more variation in combat as opposed to speed alone is shallow thinking, but to each his own.

That's not what I said. I said if you think the only difference between SS's bosses and all the other modern Zelda bosses is that you can hack and slash them to death quicker -- which I don't understand where you're even coming from with that -- then that's shallow thinking, because there was much more than that.

 

[Guest_1]

That's not what I said. I said if you think the only difference between SS's bosses and all the other modern Zelda bosses is that you can hack and slash them to death quicker -- which I don't understand where you're even coming from with that -- then that's shallow thinking, because there was much more than that.

I was speaking as a general rule, not so much in relation with SS's boss battles. I wasn't trying to say SS was faced paced (it was to some extent, but not really) in comparison to the other games, or that it was the only difference in combat. Sorry, I should've clarified that better.

 

[Ventus]

think the only difference between SS's bosses and all the other modern Zelda bosses is that you can hack and slash them to death quicker -- which I don't understand where you're even coming from with that -- then that's shallow thinking, because there was much more than that.

Meep, just my two cents here but...pretty much the only difference between SS' bosses and other modern Zelda *is* that you can hack and slash them to death quicker, provided you know the controls well. Have anyone who mastered TWW or TP's controls and pit them against any boss of their game. Easy, eh? Now have anyone who mastered SS' controls and pit them against any boss of their game. Easier? You bet! Video proof:
TWW: Ganondorf (TAS) - YouTube (TWW Ganondorf 55 seconds)
Skyward Sword Final Boss 0:30.76 no shield or skyward strikes - YouTube (SS Demise 30 seconds)

See the difference? Yeah, the overall speed. Again, jux my two cents, nothing more. /runaway

 

[JuicieJ]

Meep, just my two cents here but...pretty much the only difference between SS' bosses and other modern Zelda *is* that you can hack and slash them to death quicker, provided you know the controls well. Have anyone who mastered TWW or TP's controls and pit them against any boss of their game. Easy, eh? Now have anyone who mastered SS' controls and pit them against any boss of their game. Easier? You bet! Video proof:
TWW: Ganondorf (TAS) - YouTube (TWW Ganondorf 55 seconds)
Skyward Sword Final Boss 0:30.76 no shield or skyward strikes - YouTube (SS Demise 30 seconds)

See the difference? Yeah, the overall speed. Again, jux my two cents, nothing more. /runaway

TWW and TP's bosses are pathetically easy, some to the point (as I said earlier) being easier than normal enemy encounters. Just because they take longer to defeat doesn't make them tougher. It's just an elongation of the the battle. Quicker takedowns =/= easier fights. This is pretty basic logic. If you seriously think SS's bosses are easier than TWW and TP's, you seriously need to rethink, because that's just not true.

 

[HyruleHistory10]

I think the speed is fine. Especially in Skyward Sword. It works for Zelda. It's slow enough to allow you to think but not so fast that you can't tell what the crap's coming at you. Combat doesn't have to be super fast and all that to be quality entertainment, and I think Zelda is a fine showcase for this. I guess the combat could be faster in harder difficulty modes if they were to be brought into the series, but as-is, Zelda's combat speed just pretty much ideal if you ask me.

I agree with this for two reasons. i was playing those new batman games arkham asylum and the other and i was getting lost in the combat because he is jumping around and moving around so much. it looks impressive but it not logical. i mean zelda is about more medival warfare. and also about the speed how fast could you swing a sword like the master sword and move around with batmans agility with a sword that wieghs 50+lbs and a shield that wieghs about the same or more PLUS all of the gear and items on him it is just not plausible.
though i do believe that the enemies should react faster depending on their size it should also be used in moderation. i mean look at the Witch king of Angmar from Lord of the rings. he was a normal sized human agumented by Sauron but was not fast he swung his mace once then was backstabbed by a hafling and met his demise in like 8 secs. it is more about the thinking then speed but that is just me.

 

[Spirit]

Like a lot of people I'd never had a problem with the battle speed in Zelda until SS. The worst thing about SS as far as combat went was starting the fight and getting in that first blow. As soon as you landed that first blow it was quite fun to 'roflwaggle' the Wiimote to take out some enemies, especially the fat bokoblins. though by the same token it was also annoying when they eventually blocked and reset the fight to a pokerface game of getting the next hit in. Difficulty in SS would have been better if when the bokoblins got a hit in on Link that they also went into a frenzied melee on you, i think that kind of danger would have made the fights at least a bit more intense.

But personally with combat as a whole in the 3D Zelda games i'd really like a complete change in terms of an engine change. I think a Zelda game would work really well in a Devil May Cry, Bayonetta style game. I don't mean by giving it over the top action (Link isn't that kind of character) but having more enemies on the screen at any one time in any one place with a large array of moves to take them all out would be a wonderful change to proceedings. Of course there is a problem with using a DMC/Bayonetta engine, in that the exploration and idea of the overworld could get completely kicked out of the game all together, but really i think nintendo would do well to completely change the way combat is done in Zelda, even making Link more athletic ala Prince of Persia in Two Thrones where he was able to crawl over enemies and slash at them from behind of kick off of them to get some respite from the battle. We've already seen Link vault over the fat bokoblins in SS to score hits from behind so a 'free-form' fighting style isn't totally outside the realm of possibility

 

[JuicieJ]

Like a lot of people I'd never had a problem with the battle speed in Zelda until SS. The worst thing about SS as far as combat went was starting the fight and getting in that first blow. As soon as you landed that first blow it was quite fun to 'roflwaggle' the Wiimote to take out some enemies, especially the fat bokoblins. though by the same token it was also annoying when they eventually blocked and reset the fight to a pokerface game of getting the next hit in.

Try using the Spin Attack after landing a couple hits. It'll knock 'em to the ground, after which you can use the Fatal Blow. I think you'll find it much easier to take them out this way.

Difficulty in SS would have been better if when the bokoblins got a hit in on Link that they also went into a frenzied melee on you, i think that kind of danger would have made the fights at least a bit more intense.

They kinda do when they're in groups, especially if you run out of stamina.

 

[Guest_1]

Like a lot of people I'd never had a problem with the battle speed in Zelda until SS. The worst thing about SS as far as combat went was starting the fight and getting in that first blow. As soon as you landed that first blow it was quite fun to 'roflwaggle' the Wiimote to take out some enemies, especially the fat bokoblins. though by the same token it was also annoying when they eventually blocked and reset the fight to a pokerface game of getting the next hit in. Difficulty in SS would have been better if when the bokoblins got a hit in on Link that they also went into a frenzied melee on you, i think that kind of danger would have made the fights at least a bit more intense.

I had a similar experience with the Skulltula. At first, it was very difficult to kill them, and it took a bit to actually figure out how to deal with them. Once you did figure them out, however, they became a joke really fast. That's kind of my feeling of many of the enemies in the Zelda games so far; they've become a one-trick pony, and I'd like to see them have more than just one attack up their sleeve. The idea of a frenzied state is an interesting idea, though I wouldn't want to see that happen to every single enemy.

That was my experience as well, except it was more with the skulltulas and how to actually hit their weak point. Once you learned how to kill one (by flipping them over with your sword), they became a joke rather fast. While they are in one way a step in the right direction, I agree that having certain enemies have a "frenzy mode" might spice things up.

But personally with combat as a whole in the 3D Zelda games i'd really like a complete change in terms of an engine change. I think a Zelda game would work really well in a Devil May Cry, Bayonetta style game. I don't mean by giving it over the top action (Link isn't that kind of character) but having more enemies on the screen at any one time in any one place with a large array of moves to take them all out would be a wonderful change to proceedings. Of course there is a problem with using a DMC/Bayonetta engine, in that the exploration and idea of the overworld could get completely kicked out of the game all together, but really i think nintendo would do well to completely change the way combat is done in Zelda, even making Link more athletic ala Prince of Persia in Two Thrones where he was able to crawl over enemies and slash at them from behind of kick off of them to get some respite from the battle. We've already seen Link vault over the fat bokoblins in SS to score hits from behind so a 'free-form' fighting style isn't totally outside the realm of possibility

Link has already proven he can do parkour. Honestly, I would find that a good mechanic to throw in there. We've always been given the impression that Link is very agile, but it wasn't until SS that we were actually able to see that. While I don't know if going for a free-form combat system would really change anything, I do agree that some form of change needs to be done, not just in combat speed alone.

 

[JuicieJ]

That was my experience as well, except it was more with the skulltulas and how to actually hit their weak point. Once you learned how to kill one (by flipping them over with your sword), they became a joke rather fast. While they are in one way a step in the right direction, I agree that having certain enemies have a "frenzy mode" might spice things up.

All enemies become easy once you get the hang of them. Even if they were to have a "frenzy mode", they would become easy eventually.

 

[Ventus]

All enemies become easy once you get the hang of them. Even if they were to have a "frenzy mode", they would become easy eventually.

The difference, though, is that in case A, you only have one attack to look out for, only one area where you can be "threatened". In case B, you at least have to get through two layers, making the ease come much...harder? than usual.

 

[Guest_1]

All enemies become easy once you get the hang of them. Even if they were to have a "frenzy mode", they would become easy eventually.

Sure, but that's where having more variety would help. If every enemy were to have one, that'd be pretty stupid. The problem lies in that they become too easy too fast, and neither increasing combat speed alone nor variation in attacks alone will really improve anything. I don't necessarily think every enemy should be a puzzle to defeat, as puzzles in Zelda are a different beast altogether. I could see having an easy variant of enemies in the beginning, when you're just learning how to play, but after a point, the training wheels should be taken off.

 

[JuicieJ]

...but after a point, the training wheels should be taken off.

You mean like in Skyward Sword? Where training wheels were taken off after Skyloft?