Should the Overall Combat Battle Speed Increase?

[The Jade Fist]

I'm a go back to majora's mask style speed, Lets face it those bosses didn't move that slowly or provide you openings. Twinmolds maybe, and Majora mostly didn't attack much either. (ok he did attack, but it was blockable, and when he runs around the room like an idiot he's pretty harmless)

But look at odawalla, that was a pretty fast paced fight. Honestly I prefer boss battles to be more fast paced, vs strictly being puzzles. Honestly the less puzzle there is in a boss, the more intense the fighting tends to be, and thats how it should be, the whole dungeon was a puzzle to get to it, I wanna have a cool action sequence to wrap it up. One that can make my hands a bit shaky afterwards.

Bosses should be hard, unmerciful to an extent, and fast paced, and more about surviving then figuring out "oh the giant glowing eye". They also should not have unavoidable attacks either, you want to reward the player for reacting . But punish them for not, like a few hearts of damage a hit from the boss, like LTTP.

In LTTP you could take a boss down in 20 seconds, but the reverse was also true, and thats how it should be.

Maybe a few bosses that are puzzles are ok, but like in TP it was literally every boss, being exactly the same game plan. Solve for weakeness, mutli strike untill it doesn't let you, repeat. If you're going to do a boss with a weakness, make it at least hard to hit. The Fire Temple in OoT is a good example, in that you could shoot the dragon in the head mid flight, but it was difficult to do so, on the ground it was kinda easy (still hit you for 2 hearts of damage for everything it did).

Gyrog there we go, thats a perfect puzzle boss, if some one didn't die at least once to him (using a fairy counts as dying), i'd be surprised a bit. Not only was he hard to avoid in the water what with him biting forward but still able to grab you behind himself, he did alot of damage to you, and unless you were super boss with the Zora mask at that point, good luck jumping back on the platform perfectly.

Now that said with a practice with the Zora mask, this boss could be done flawlessly, i've done it before, but it required very perfect control of the Zora mask, in a fast pace "Gota Get the hell out of the water " kinda way.

Where in contrast I'd rate Odowalla as the perfect action boss, even if he was the first one in the game.

Thats the kind of boss pace i want to see more of.

 

[JuicieJ]

I'm a go back to majora's mask style speed, Lets face it those bosses didn't move that slowly or provide you openings. Twinmolds maybe, and Majora mostly didn't attack much either.

But look at odawalla, that was a pretty fast paced fight. Honestly I prefer boss battles to be more fast paced, vs strictly being puzzles. Honestly the less puzzle there is in a boss, the more intense the fighting tends to be, and thats how it should be, the whole dungeon was a puzzle to get to it, I wanna have a cool action sequence to wrap it up. One that can make my hands a bit shaky afterwards.

Bosses should be hard, unmerciful to an extent, and fast paced, and more about surviving then figuring out "oh the giant glowing eye". They also should not have unavoidable attacks either, you want to reward the player for reacting . But punish them for not, like a few hearts of damage a hit from the boss, like LTTP.

In LTTP you could take a boss down in 20 seconds, but the reverse was also true, and thats how it should be.

Maybe a few bosses that are puzzles are ok, but like in TP it was literally every boss, being exactly the same game plan. Solve for weakeness, mutli strike untill it doesn't let you, repeat. If you're going to do a boss with a weakness, make it at least hard to hit. The Fire Temple in OoT is a good example, in that you could shoot the dragon in the head mid flight, but it was difficult to do so, on the ground it was kinda easy (still hit you for 2 hearts of damage for everything it did).

Gyrog there we go, thats a perfect puzzle boss, if some one didn't die at least once to him (using a fairy counts as dying), i'd be surprised a bit. Not only was he hard to avoid in the water what with him biting forward but still able to grab you behind himself, he did alot of damage to you, and unless you were super boss with the Zora mask at that point, good luck jumping back on the platform perfectly.

Now that said with a practice with the Zora mask, this boss could be done flawlessly, i've done it before, but it required very perfect control of the Zora mask, in a fast pace "Gota Get the hell out of the water " kinda way.

Where in contrast I'd rate Odowalla as the perfect action boss, even if he was the first one in the game.

Thats the kind of boss pace i want to see more of.

The final three fights in Skyward Sword.

 

[The Jade Fist]

The final three fights in Skyward Sword.

As I've said before, I have a certain lack of Wii, so I can't really compare anything about skyward sword.

 

[Guest_1]

I'm a go back to majora's mask style speed, Lets face it those bosses didn't move that slowly or provide you openings. Twinmolds maybe, and Majora mostly didn't attack much either. (ok he did attack, but it was blockable, and when he runs around the room like an idiot he's pretty harmless)

But look at odawalla, that was a pretty fast paced fight. Honestly I prefer boss battles to be more fast paced, vs strictly being puzzles. Honestly the less puzzle there is in a boss, the more intense the fighting tends to be, and thats how it should be, the whole dungeon was a puzzle to get to it, I wanna have a cool action sequence to wrap it up. One that can make my hands a bit shaky afterwards.

Bosses should be hard, unmerciful to an extent, and fast paced, and more about surviving then figuring out "oh the giant glowing eye". They also should not have unavoidable attacks either, you want to reward the player for reacting . But punish them for not, like a few hearts of damage a hit from the boss, like LTTP.

In LTTP you could take a boss down in 20 seconds, but the reverse was also true, and thats how it should be.

Maybe a few bosses that are puzzles are ok, but like in TP it was literally every boss, being exactly the same game plan. Solve for weakeness, mutli strike untill it doesn't let you, repeat. If you're going to do a boss with a weakness, make it at least hard to hit. The Fire Temple in OoT is a good example, in that you could shoot the dragon in the head mid flight, but it was difficult to do so, on the ground it was kinda easy (still hit you for 2 hearts of damage for everything it did).

Gyrog there we go, thats a perfect puzzle boss, if some one didn't die at least once to him (using a fairy counts as dying), i'd be surprised a bit. Not only was he hard to avoid in the water what with him biting forward but still able to grab you behind himself, he did alot of damage to you, and unless you were super boss with the Zora mask at that point, good luck jumping back on the platform perfectly.

Now that said with a practice with the Zora mask, this boss could be done flawlessly, i've done it before, but it required very perfect control of the Zora mask, in a fast pace "Gota Get the hell out of the water " kinda way.

Where in contrast I'd rate Odowalla as the perfect action boss, even if he was the first one in the game.

Thats the kind of boss pace i want to see more of.

Actually, I think what needs to happen is that hints to a boss' weakness should never be given out in the first place. That was something ALttP did right- it wasn't unmercifully difficult with its combat, but it also didn't hold your hand. It gave you vague hints on how to get through it, but that was about it- the rest was up to the player. It goes back to my comment about how even combat has become linear; we shouldn't be restricted to just one way of doing things.

 

[The Jade Fist]

Actually, I think what needs to happen is that hints to a boss' weakness should never be given out in the first place. That was something ALttP did right- it wasn't unmercifully difficult with its combat, but it also didn't hold your hand. It gave you vague hints on how to get through it, but that was about it- the rest was up to the player. It goes back to my comment about how even combat has become linear; we shouldn't be restricted to just one way of doing things.

Exactly, Like the Sand Worms did you know if you actually got the ice rod and used it on them, it was very effective? The vague hint, is the sharasala guy, suggested you get the treasure hidden near lake hylia just before you'd be going to the desert. Provided you don't miss, they should die right as you're about out of magic. Arrows also worked, so did sword.

Even back then most bosses could still be killed with more then one item. Like the first dark world boss, you could use bombs or the hammer to break its mask.

I love it bosses aren't 1 exact method/ item. But if it is 1 way, it should be very high paced, and difficult to make up for the lack of freedom.

 

[Guest_1]

Exactly, Like the Sand Worms did you know if you actually got the ice rod and used it on them, it was very effective? The vague hint, is the sharasala guy, suggested you get the treasure hidden near lake hylia just before you'd be going to the desert. Provided you don't miss, they should die right as you're about out of magic. Arrows also worked, so did sword.

Even back then most bosses could still be killed with more then one item. Like the first dark world boss, you could use bombs or the hammer to break its mask.

I love it bosses aren't 1 exact method/ item. But if it is 1 way, it should be very high paced, and difficult to make up for the lack of freedom.

The thing is, at the end of the day, the speed of the combat is only going to make it so you kill things faster. It doesn't really teach you anything, it only makes getting from Point A to Point B faster, and that to me has never been the point of Zelda. It's been more about the adventure. Yeah, that'll make the adventure go by more quickly, but then it may not be as epic or memorable, either. I don't necessarily want a boss fight to be quick- I want a boss fight to be challenging.

 

[Ventus]

The thing is, at the end of the day, the speed of the combat is only going to make it so you kill things faster.

Not necessarily. If a battle is going by quickly, regardless of if it is field enemies or big bosses, there are many opportunities which the enemy can take so that you may be overwhelmed. You'll have to learn to act and react quickly, not simply wait the battle out as you do in current Zeldas. Actually, I am currently playing through Kingdom Hearts: Dream Drop Distance and the sheer speed of the enemies, as well as with the overall battle speed, are making things really difficult on me. Granted, every enemy has more than one attack (as do the two main characters in the game), but the speed is what really gets me -- what attack they use is pretty negligible at this time.

If you're particularly great at mastering Zelda, then I can agree that speed only makes the overall battle get over and done with quicker. This is where, in my opinion, different enemy attacks come. Not different directions (what SS was aiming for), but different attacks altogether. These two concepts in essence can make things infinitely more challenging than they currently are in a Zelda. At the same time, though, if we just had different attacks added to bosses, the battle speed that Zeldas are currently at won't lend themselves well (in my opinion). So what if they're different attacks if they're still slow? Battle speeds need to be increased ever so much for them to be the least bit challenging, at least in my opinion.

 

[Chilfo Freeze]

The thing is, at the end of the day, the speed of the combat is only going to make it so you kill things faster.

I disagree with this. The speed of combat does not only make the battle go by quicker. There's so much more effort, technique and skill that must be inserted into gameplay when a battle becomes faster. Innovation comes into play, where the player must think of ways to defeat the enemy and in a set amount of time as well. This completely differes from the down time between every hit that we see in many LoZ games. Due to increased speed in battle, the level of difficulty increases.

By the end of the day, the speed of combat makes the battle quicker, tougher, and much more enjoyable IMO.

 

[The Jade Fist]

The thing is, at the end of the day, the speed of the combat is only going to make it so you kill things faster. It doesn't really teach you anything, it only makes getting from Point A to Point B faster, and that to me has never been the point of Zelda. It's been more about the adventure. Yeah, that'll make the adventure go by more quickly, but then it may not be as epic or memorable, either. I don't necessarily want a boss fight to be quick- I want a boss fight to be challenging.

Is it so much to want it to be fast paced and challenging, and or allow more then 1 way to beat them?

Fast paced doesn't always mean it has to end in 20 seconds either, could give the boss more hp or phases lengthen it, and still require fast paced action. Fast paced being you can't stand there for 30 seconds admiring the room, while bosses are either stuned / suck at attacking/ or just plain old fashioned look at you.

 

[JuicieJ]

Not necessarily. If a battle is going by quickly, regardless of if it is field enemies or big bosses, there are many opportunities which the enemy can take so that you may be overwhelmed. You'll have to learn to act and react quickly, not simply wait the battle out as you do in current Zeldas. Actually, I am currently playing through Kingdom Hearts: Dream Drop Distance and the sheer speed of the enemies, as well as with the overall battle speed, are making things really difficult on me. Granted, every enemy has more than one attack (as do the two main characters in the game), but the speed is what really gets me -- what attack they use is pretty negligible at this time.

Intense speed is a cheap way of adding difficulty of you ask me. It doesn't really add any depth to the enemies. It just shortens the reaction time, which can often lead to frustration. I'd rather enemies provide a real challenge than an illusion of one.

If you're particularly great at mastering Zelda, then I can agree that speed only makes the overall battle get over and done with quicker. This is where, in my opinion, different enemy attacks come. Not different directions (what SS was aiming for), but different attacks altogether. These two concepts in essence can make things infinitely more challenging than they currently are in a Zelda. At the same time, though, if we just had different attacks added to bosses, the battle speed that Zeldas are currently at won't lend themselves well (in my opinion). So what if they're different attacks if they're still slow? Battle speeds need to be increased ever so much for them to be the least bit challenging, at least in my opinion.

Thing is, enemies and bosses in games like ALttP, MM, and SS all had a remarkable level of speed. Like I mentioned earlier, it wasn't so fast that it was frustrating, but it wasn't so slow that it was easy. Especially in the bosses (Blind, Odolwa, Ghirahim). I'm confused as to where you're coming from claiming that Zelda enemies are slow because they're not.

 

[Guest_1]

Not necessarily. If a battle is going by quickly, regardless of if it is field enemies or big bosses, there are many opportunities which the enemy can take so that you may be overwhelmed. You'll have to learn to act and react quickly, not simply wait the battle out as you do in current Zeldas. Actually, I am currently playing through Kingdom Hearts: Dream Drop Distance and the sheer speed of the enemies, as well as with the overall battle speed, are making things really difficult on me. Granted, every enemy has more than one attack (as do the two main characters in the game), but the speed is what really gets me -- what attack they use is pretty negligible at this time.

I see your point, but that only goes so far. It may be difficult to match the enemy's speed, but then once you do... what then? It's just business as usual. It does teach you that you need to react faster, I will give it that.

If you're particularly great at mastering Zelda, then I can agree that speed only makes the overall battle get over and done with quicker. This is where, in my opinion, different enemy attacks come. Not different directions (what SS was aiming for), but different attacks altogether. These two concepts in essence can make things infinitely more challenging than they currently are in a Zelda. At the same time, though, if we just had different attacks added to bosses, the battle speed that Zeldas are currently at won't lend themselves well (in my opinion). So what if they're different attacks if they're still slow? Battle speeds need to be increased ever so much for them to be the least bit challenging, at least in my opinion.

It's fair to say that I fit into that category. It doesn't really take me all that long to get acquainted with a Zelda game's mechanics. I do agree that more attacks would also help, if only for what we've all mentioned earlier on. I'd say more attacks would be a more favorable approach than making them faster.

 

[(◕‿◕✿)]

I don't necessarily want a boss fight to be quick- I want a boss fight to be challenging.

In addition to what I said earlier, I would also like to see the enemies that you fight in the more fast-paced battles to be harder to defeat. It would get a bit dull to just quickly defeat those kind of enemies, so I think that raising the difficulty of killing them in general, besides the fight speed, would benefit the series. And like I said, I wouldn't necessarily want ALL the fights to be this way, I think variation is important. So I think that boss fights can be both quick and challenging, but I wouldn't want ALL the boss fights to be really fast-paced.

 

[JuicieJ]

In addition to what I said earlier, I would also like to see the enemies that you fight in the more fast-paced battles to be harder to defeat. It would get a bit dull to just quickly defeat those kind of enemies, so I think that raising the difficulty of killing them in general, besides the fight speed, would benefit the series. And like I said, I wouldn't necessarily want ALL the fights to be this way, I think variation is important. So I think that boss fights can be both quick and challenging, but I wouldn't want ALL the boss fights to be really fast-paced.

In other words, boss fights like in ALttP, MM, and SS.

 

[Guest_1]

Is it so much to want it to be fast paced and challenging, and or allow more then 1 way to beat them?

Fast paced doesn't always mean it has to end in 20 seconds either, could give the boss more hp or phases lengthen it, and still require fast paced action. Fast paced being you can't stand there for 30 seconds admiring the room, while bosses are either stuned / suck at attacking/ or just plain old fashioned look at you.

Nobody is saying you can't have both. I'm just saying that making it faster alone won't make it more challenging on its own. That's where the variation in combat comes in.

In addition to what I said earlier, I would also like to see the enemies that you fight in the more fast-paced battles to be harder to defeat. It would get a bit dull to just quickly defeat those kind of enemies, so I think that raising the difficulty of killing them in general, besides the fight speed, would benefit the series. And like I said, I wouldn't necessarily want ALL the fights to be this way, I think variation is important. So I think that boss fights can be both quick and challenging, but I wouldn't want ALL the boss fights to be really fast-paced.

Agreed. I think adding variety would be more beneficial to the series than simply speeding things up would. All that does is exactly that. Now, if you did a combination of all the above, then we might get somewhere.

In other words, boss fights like in ALttP, MM, and SS.

Personally, I found SS's boss fights to be... okay. They weren't quite the epic battles we had in ALttP, MM, or even OoT and AoL. Not that they are bad, but it still runs into that problem TP has of "get the item in the dungeon, use it to weaken the boss, then stab it dead".

 

[JuicieJ]

Personally, I found SS's boss fights to be... okay. They weren't quite the epic battles we had in ALttP, MM, or even OoT and AoL. Not that they are bad, but it still runs into that problem TP has of "get the item in the dungeon, use it to weaken the boss, then stab it dead".

Some of the bosses in SS used the item from the dungeon, but these were still action-packed fights, and bosses like Ghirahim and Demise were a real return to the older days before items were the focus of the fights. The only bosses (besides Tentalus) that used the TWW/TP style battle were overworld bosses. However, even these were a bit more diverse in how they played out. It wasn't just a simple matter of hitting the bosses weak point for the most part. It was a legit challenge to take them down, whereas TWW and TP's bosses were often easier than normal fights in the game. The bosses in SS had a balance between action and puzzle fights, and that's exactly what should happen in Zelda.