Spoiler My views on the timeline placement of BotW/TotK.

[Moblinking5000]

There's too many contradictions. The Zora and Rito already exist in Tear's past era, but are nowhere to be seen in Skyward Sword. Races from Skyward Sword like the Paralla, Kikwi, and Mogma should be around but aren't in the past shown in Tears of the Kingdom.

This is like saying that FSA can't be after TP because there are no members of the Gerudo(aside from Ganon, obviously) in TP, but we see them in FSA. Or that the Minish have to be in every game because they're responsible for why there is rupees and **** like that under bushes. The most reasonable explanation is that, for example, the Rito aren't relevant to the plot of the other games outside of BotW and TotK, wheras they are in BotW/TotK. Hell, we only even visit Tabantha in one other game outside of BotW/TotK(TMC), which appears to be the stomping grounds of the Rito.

Geographically, Skyward Sword has no resemblence at all to Hyrule from BotW and TotK,

Hyrule looks pretty close to what we see in FS and OoT, though, with it being very heavily forested and there being smoke rings around Death Mountain like in those games(the fact that there are no smoke rings around DM in both BotW and the present day of TotK is very telling; the developers went out of their way to add that detail).

Rauru wouldn't need to found Hyrule in Hylia's timeframe of being alive anyway, unless we're trying to assert that Rauru set up for Hylia's era, which I don't see as being likely.

I'm arguing that the founding is the one between SS and TMC; only one user here believes in a founding before that one.

or even viewing it as a completely seperate continuity works, because making it so far removed from all other games basically does that anyway.

The fact that both games make it clear that OoT happened means that they aren't as ''separated'' as you're making them out to be, though.

 

[Andjalo]

That's a Neat theory

 

[Andjalo]

I can't say I entirely like the implications, but it's still neat

 

[mαrkαsscoρ]

This is like saying that FSA can't be after TP because there are no members of the Gerudo(aside from Ganon, obviously) in TP, but we see them in FSA. Or that the Minish have to be in every game because they're responsible for why there is rupees and **** like that under bushes. The most reasonable explanation is that, for example, the Rito aren't relevant to the plot of the other games outside of BotW and TotK, wheras they are in BotW/TotK. Hell, we only even visit Tabantha in one other game outside of BotW/TotK(TMC), which appears to be the stomping grounds of the Rito.

what would your honest reaction be if someone told you last year "hey, the rito were actually around throughout the entire series and were pivotal to the founding of hyrule, but we just never see them", despite not a single thing in the games ever suggesting that?

 

[Moblinking5000]

what would your honest reaction be if someone told you last year "hey, the rito were actually around throughout the entire series and were pivotal to the founding of hyrule, but we just never see them", despite not a single thing in the games ever suggesting that?

Considering that we've objectively had similar situations before and that there's nothing actually contradicting it? Wouldn't phase me. Nintendo focuses more on gameplay and individual stories before the wider lore, so it also makes sense with how the games are made, anyway.

 

[GZ Zelda]

It really only makes sense to me as an event far removed from all other games still, and on the downfall timeline. The kingdom of Hyrule likely collapased and then Rauru came along to re-establish a kingdom which was the basis of a new era of Hyrule where the older era was forgotten. Ganondorf is likely reincarnated at this point after a prolonged stint of going nowhere as Ganon. So Ganondorf in Tears is not the same man from Ocarina of Time. He gets sealed away by Rauru, but his malice seeps through the seal creating Calamity Ganon. Calamity Ganon becomes an issue, prompting the creation of the Divine Beasts which are based on the animal masks of the sages who helped Rauru to seal Ganondorf.

Cue the Calamity of 10,000 years ago. Followed by The Great Calamity of 100 years before Breath of the Wild.

Sometime after Breath of the Wild, malice begins to change into gloom due to the seal on Ganondorf waning. Then the events of Link's new adventure in Tears unfold.

I can't really see any other option to work the past era shown in Tears into the timeline.

Regardless, one thing is very clear to me: I got the impression that Tears is meant to reboot the lore of the series, or at least set a new beginning point for games hereafter to be based off of in terms of lore.

I had this impression so strongly, my alternate theory was that Breath of the Wild and Tears are their own continuity now removed from the continuity of the established timeline.

You insist it must be on the downfall timeline

There's too many contradictions. The Zora and Rito already exist in Tear's past era, but are nowhere to be seen in Skyward Sword. Races from Skyward Sword like the Paralla, Kikwi, and Mogma should be around but aren't in the past shown in Tears of the Kingdom. Geographically, Skyward Sword has no resemblence at all to Hyrule from BotW and TotK, and we see structures from Tear's past era that are still around in BotW and the present day storyline of TotK, such as the Temple of Time from The Great Plateau (the cutscene where Ganondorf swears fealty to Rauru takes place inside it). Rauru wouldn't need to found Hyrule in Hylia's timeframe of being alive anyway, unless we're trying to assert that Rauru set up for Hylia's era, which I don't see as being likely.

and then use the presence of the Rito to explain why it must be a refounding. Wouldn't the presence of races that, currently, have only canonically evolved in one timeline, suggest an Adult Timeline placement for Tears of the Kingdom?

 

[Spiritual Mask Salesman]

and then use the presence of the Rito to explain why it must be a refounding. Wouldn't the presence of races that, currently, have only canonically evolved in one timeline, suggest an Adult Timeline placement for Tears of the Kingdom?

The Rito could have evolved on the Downfall Timeline. The refounding of Hyrule in Tears, which would be the earliest point shown in either BotW or TotK, is likely still several thousands of years removed from the last game of the Downfall Timeline. Pretty much anything in terms of evolution could happen in that much time. We also know the Downfall Timeline has the Fokka, which were hostile in AoL, but perhaps they eventually became the Rito. It doesn't seem too far fetched considering the Zora on the Downfall Timeline had also become hostile, but regained their senses it looks like.

That said, I'm not going to pretend that the reverse can't be true. It could work placing it on the Adult Timeline in light of info we've gotten from TotK (and maybe that's the better option, actually.)

In the multiple thousands of years between Spirit Tracks and the refounding of Hyrule shown in TotK, the water from The Great Flood could have receded, and the Zora could have evolved back somehow.

I used to disregard an Adult Timeline placement because of the info about Ganon that Impa gave in BotW. I thought Ganon on the downfall timeline could be the only one who fit the description of a Ganon that was a threat numerous times. All of that seems sort of pointless now since she was likely only talking about Calamity Ganon being a recurring threat, and not talking about past iterations of Ganon.

Everything considered, the Adult Timeline now seems mostly viable for BotW and TotK. Ancient Hyrule would actually need to have a refounding because it had been flooded for so long. This could also maybe explain why Hyrule in BotW and TotK seems to be sunken down in comparision to the other land mass seen out of bounds on the western and northern part of the map.

Ganondorf in TotK is not the same one from OoT, in TotK he is a reincarnated Ganondorf it looks like. Considering Ganondorf was turned to stone on this timeline, he would need to reincarnate. The only hiccup is how would The Master Sword be retrieved when on this timeline it was left stabbed in Wind Waker Ganondorf's forehead?

If we can work out a solution to getting the Master Sword, without WW Ganondorf being released as well, the Adult Timeline works to place TotK and BotW on, in my mind.

I still think it can totally work on the Downfall Timeline too.

 

[Spiritual Mask Salesman]

This is like saying that FSA can't be after TP because there are no members of the Gerudo(aside from Ganon, obviously) in TP, but we see them in FSA. Or that the Minish have to be in every game because they're responsible for why there is rupees and **** like that under bushes. The most reasonable explanation is that, for example, the Rito aren't relevant to the plot of the other games outside of BotW and TotK, wheras they are in BotW/TotK. Hell, we only even visit Tabantha in one other game outside of BotW/TotK(TMC), which appears to be the stomping grounds of the Rito.

I don't feel these points work.

Four Swords Adventures was created before Twilight Princess, so it was never going to have plot points that could've matched things from TP.

A lot of lore from The Minish Cap and Four Swords are essientially self-contained and don't have much influence on other parts of established lore.

At most the naming of areas in BotW and TotK are easter eggs and don't amount to much in terms of connecting it to other games.

But the Pre-SS founding theory doesn't matter much, before I think I missed your assertion that the backstory of TotK happens after SS, but before OoT.

Regarding that, I don't see why Rauru would need to step in when by the end of SS, Hyrule was probably set to flourish into a Kingdom without needing guidence. I also feel like your theory that while TotK Ganondorf is sealed away, a different Ganondorf was reincarnated, is a big stretch. Full on reincarnation is different than escaping a seal by making a doppleganger of some kind.

Though I will say, I do sort of like the idea that the version of Ganondorf we've been fighting in the series so far is a very weakened fragmented version of a demon that is stronger. That said, I posit three things to you that I'd like to see your thoughts on:

1. Does getting the Triforce of Power mean the fragmented reincarnation actually becomes objectively stronger than the sealed Ganondorf, or at most about at par with him? Would all the experience of this reincarnated Ganondorf make him also the wiser and more fearsome of two? If the answer is Ganondorf in OoT onward is the more fearsome one, I would find that very funny. I have not done the final battle in TotK yet, by the way.

2. Why isn't the Triforce relevant in the backstory of TotK, because if it's the founding of Hyrule, we know the founding is mainly about wars over the Triforce, and trying to hide it away. Also, what do you think the secret stones are?

3. Do you think Hylia was a Zonai? (I think it's likely)

 

[Moblinking5000]

I don't feel these points work.

Four Swords Adventures was created before Twilight Princess, so it was never going to have plot points that could've matched things from TP.

Well, both TP and FSA have the same script writer...

A lot of lore from The Minish Cap and Four Swords are essientially self-contained and don't have much influence on other parts of established lore.

TMC literally gives us the reason why rupees and such are hidden under bushes and pots throughout the series.

At most the naming of areas in BotW and TotK are easter eggs and don't amount to much in terms of connecting it to other games.

My problem with that is that calling something an ''Easter Egg'' should be reserved for things that are either: 1. Unobtainable without outside add ons(such as the Amiibos in BotW), 2. Have contradictory lore implications(the former amiibo items in TotK or the MS in the Oracles), or 3. Are unexplainable(like the Mario pictures in OoT).

Thankfully, regardless of which timeline you place BotW/TotK(although it's totes the DT, don't @ me), these can be explained. Mount Daphnes, you say? Considering the fact that the three timelines were once one, it would stand to reason that Daphnes would be born into the RF in all timelines at some point. The only way it would be a meaningful reference to The Wind Waker is if they gave an explicit spiel of his history(like they did with Ruto). Just like how the ''same'' characters from OoT and MM appearing in the Oracle games can be explained without relying on the, ''it's an easter egg bruh'' copout.

Regarding that, I don't see why Rauru would need to step in when by the end of SS, Hyrule was probably set to flourish into a Kingdom without needing guidence.

Hyrule Kingdom isn't founded the very second SS ends. We know that it's only founded after the Era of Chaos.

I also feel like your theory that while TotK Ganondorf is sealed away, a different Ganondorf was reincarnated, is a big stretch. Full on reincarnation is different than escaping a seal by making a doppleganger of some kind.

Is it though? That's how we got characters like Agahnim, or how Ganon created the blights to serve him in BotW. They are essentially different characters created using parts of Ganon's malice/spirit, just like how OoT Ganon is a different character from TotK Ganon created from (a part of) TotK Ganon's malice/spirit, like how FSA Ganon is a different person from both OoT Ganon and TotK Ganon using their(atleast OoT Ganon's spirit/malice, despite thinking that TotK Ganon, OoT Ganon, and FSA Ganon are all connected as far as their spirit/malice goes).

Does getting the Triforce of Power mean the fragmented reincarnation actually becomes objectively stronger than the sealed Ganondorf, or at most about at par with him? Would all the experience of this reincarnated Ganondorf make him also the wiser and more fearsome of two? If the answer is Ganondorf in OoT onward is the more fearsome one, I would find that very funny. I have not done the final battle in TotK yet, by the way.

I mean, OoT Ganondorf is the most recurring Ganon in the series, so him being the most powerful and fearsome isn't that strange, even if he's not the original. But yeah, considering that the Secret Stones only enhance the power that someone already has, wheras the ToP is a part of the Triforce which contains the power of the gods, OoT Ganon becomes more powerful in many ways than TotK Ganon. Eventually, as he degrades after being killed/sealed and revived/unsealed again and again and again and again on the DT, OoT Ganon becomes a powerful being of pure malice called Calamity Ganon; while CG is OoT Ganon(or atleast what remains of him), the fact that he's just a spirit filled with malice at this point means that he can technically be considered the revived malice/spirit of TotK Ganon as well, since OoT Ganon was made from TotK Ganon's malice/spirit anyway. This allows the history of Calamity Ganon to still be tied to the pasts of both OoT Ganon(as heavily implied by BotW and outright confirmed in CaC), and TotK Ganon(as confirmed by Impa in TotK).

Why isn't the Triforce relevant in the backstory of TotK, because if it's the founding of Hyrule, we know the founding is mainly about wars over the Triforce, and trying to hide it away. Also, what do you think the secret stones are?

Because Hyrule Kingdom is founded post Era of Chaos, and the EoC ends with the Triforce sealed in the Sacred Realm. HH even says that the RF kept knowledge of the Triforce a secret, explaining why no one mentions it in the past era of TotK.

3. Do you think Hylia was a Zonai? (I think it's likely)

Possible; in fact, I think that many things may be retroactively related to the Zonai, like the Tower of the Gods, especially Gohdan(who has pretty much all the features of a construct). Might make a topic about those in the future.

 

[GZ Zelda]

Everything considered, the Adult Timeline now seems mostly viable for BotW and TotK. Ancient Hyrule would actually need to have a refounding because it had been flooded for so long. This could also maybe explain why Hyrule in BotW and TotK seems to be sunken down in comparision to the other land mass seen out of bounds on the western and northern part of the map.

This is the main reason a refounding model works best on the Adult Timeline: at the end of the Downfall Timeline, the entire Triforce is in the possession of the Royal Family. Some insane stuff would have to happen for the entire kingdom to be essentially entirely rebooted: no Triforce, no Master Sword, no Princess Zelda.

An unflooded Hyrule, heavily forested and in similar condition to OoT's Hyrule built atop a Depths held together by magical roots, matches what a presumed post-Great Deku Tree Success Hyrule would look like.

In the multiple thousands of years between Spirit Tracks and the refounding of Hyrule shown in TotK, the water from The Great Flood could have receded, and the Zora could have evolved back somehow.

There are Geozards in PH and ST (called Zora Warriors in the original games), and the Great Deku Tree explicitly wants to unflood Hyrule by planting the Korok ceremony:

"Every year after the Koroks perform this ceremony, they fly off to the distant islands on the sea and plant my seeds in the hopes that new forests will grow. Forests hold great power--they can change one tiny island into a much larger island. Soon, a day will come when all the islands are one, connected by earth and grove. And the people who live on that great island will be able to join hands and, together, create a better world. Such is my dream."

Maybe his dream never gets fulfilled. But maybe it does.

Ganondorf in TotK is not the same one from OoT, in TotK he is a reincarnated Ganondorf it looks like. Considering Ganondorf was turned to stone on this timeline, he would need to reincarnate. The only hiccup is how would The Master Sword be retrieved when on this timeline it was left stabbed in Wind Waker Ganondorf's forehead?

The Master Sword (and Triforce) being "inaccessible" and kind of forgotten actually explains their lack of use in the past of Tears of the Kingdom. Most people read that as the Master Sword killing Ganondorf, and so the removal of it from stone Ganondorf would be just like taking it out of any old rock.

I still think it can totally work on the Downfall Timeline too.

I agree as well (I totally agreed that, with just BotW, the Downfall Timeline is the best placement). But, considering our options, post-TotK:

1. DT, refounding post-Z2
2. DT, founding pre-MC, post-SS (@Moblinking5000)
3. DT, founding pre-SS (@Ryuu Kage Desu)
4. CT, refounding post-FSA
5. CT, founding pre-MC, post-SS
6. CT, founding pre-SS
7. AT, refounding post-ST (@GZ Zelda)
8. AT, founding pre-MC, post-SS
9. AT, founding pre-SS
10. Fourth timeline, split in SS (@tman)
11. Living Legend

I think the one that works best is AT, refounding post-ST. The other ones create more problems then they solve: squeezing Ganondorf in, justifying refounding through off-screen kingdom collapses, having the Rito evolve both before and after Ocarina of Time, having OoT Ganondorf not be the first Ganondorf. I agree that a DT placement is the next best option, but the AT placement just seems like you have to jump through the least number of hurdles to reach (the only one really being: is it possible for the divine flood to divinely unflood).

My problem with that is that calling something an ''Easter Egg'' should be reserved for things that are either: 1. Unobtainable without outside add ons(such as the Amiibos in BotW), 2. Have contradictory lore implications(the former amiibo items in TotK or the MS in the Oracles), or 3. Are unexplainable(like the Mario pictures in OoT).

Thankfully, regardless of which timeline you place BotW/TotK(although it's totes the DT, don't @ me), these can be explained. Mount Daphnes, you say? Considering the fact that the three timelines were once one, it would stand to reason that Daphnes would be born into the RF in all timelines at some point. The only way it would be a meaningful reference to The Wind Waker is if they gave an explicit spiel of his history(like they did with Ruto). Just like how the ''same'' characters from OoT and MM appearing in the Oracle games can be explained without relying on the, ''it's an easter egg bruh'' copout.

I don't agree with number 2..."contradictory lore implications" should not put something in the category of Easter Egg alone (I mean I guess that's @Bowsette Plus-Ultra's argument, that anything the developer is adding as "fanservice" shouldn't be considered in-universe canonical). The Master Sword in the Lost Woods in OoS does make sense if the Holodrum Lost Woods is connected to the Hyrule Lost Woods. And the TotK reference items (formerly DLC/amiibo included) can be explained with recurring events.

 

[Ryuu Kage Desu]

We also know the Downfall Timeline has the Fokka, which were hostile in AoL, but perhaps they eventually became the Rito.

I keep forgetting about the Fokka! I think most people do. Do you think Fokka could a subset of the Rito, rather than a cousin,or precursor species?

If we can work out a solution to getting the Master Sword, without WW Ganondorf being released as well, the Adult Timeline works to place TotK and BotW on, in my mind.

You mean like a hammer and chisel?

The Master Sword (and Triforce) being "inaccessible" and kind of forgotten actually explains their lack of use in the past of Tears of the Kingdom.

Not really. When talking about it, the people who would be in the know don't even acknowledge it as a thing that exists. She isn't told to keep it a secret. Nobody tells her that there are myths that sound kind of like it. The idea of what the Master Sword is seems completely new to everyone. Everyone.

And, Zelda would know exactly where it would be kept. Taking the sword to the pedestal, and attempting something there isn't even a thought. She doesn't even try pouring what power she can into the blade that would be hidden away, in hopes that it wouldn't have shattered in the first place. Strengthening the blade before hand would have had the same effect, as far as the timeline, due to it being a closed loop. (Narrativly, there would barely be a game, though.)

There are numerous holy locations, that she knows about, modern day, and yet using her own body was her go to solution. Either she panicked, and did the most immediate, and risky, thing, without thinking about alternatives (which is not supported by the narrative); or she knew that these locations did not exist yet, and sacrificed her self knowing there was no other option.

I think the one that works best is AT, refounding post-ST. The other ones create more problems then they solve: squeezing Ganondorf in, justifying refounding through off-screen kingdom collapses, having the Rito evolve both before and after Ocarina of Time, having OoT Ganondorf not be the first Ganondorf.

Except that it provides none of the pieces that are missing. (I can provide the list again, but it's getting a little old. I do plan on laying out all of my thoughts in a future theory post. I will be sure to include a full up to date list then.)

As far as refounding through an off screen kingdom collapse, The prologue for SS is that collapse.

With the physiological differences between the Rito we see now, and the ones from WW, we don't need the same group to evolve twice. they are two separate types, that share the same name. The Rito we see now could have evolved long before the flood, then the Zora could have been changed to join the existing Rito. Alternatively, it has been pointed out that there is a lot of cross species coupling in the Zelda universe (mostly with Hylian partners, I might add). The Zora may have coupled with the Zora so their children would be Rito, and therefore safe from the flood. One thing we do know, is the Rito Legend of the Storm Ark does place Rito history before the Cloud Barrier.

(I still think there were Zora who were not saved from the flood, who became the Fishmen.)

Having a Ganondorf before OoT is the only real issue, except that no game actually states that he is the first. If anything, the game tells us the whole one Gerudo male every once in a great many years becoming king, which leaves the door open for others before him.

 

[GZ Zelda]

There are numerous holy locations, that she knows about, modern day, and yet using her own body was her go to solution. Either she panicked, and did the most immediate, and risky, thing, without thinking about alternatives (which is not supported by the narrative); or she knew that these locations did not exist yet, and sacrificed her self knowing there was no other option.

Exactly: the only timeline where the Master Sword and Triforce are both missing and there are Rito and Gerudo is in the AT.

With the physiological differences between the Rito we see now, and the ones from WW, we don't need the same group to evolve twice. they are two separate types, that share the same name. The Rito we see now could have evolved long before the flood, then the Zora could have been changed to join the existing Rito. Alternatively, it has been pointed out that there is a lot of cross species coupling in the Zelda universe (mostly with Hylian partners, I might add). The Zora may have coupled with the Zora so their children would be Rito, and therefore safe from the flood. One thing we do know, is the Rito Legend of the Storm Ark does place Rito history before the Cloud Barrier.

The Gerudo also jump between physiological differences in a pre-SS model. Sidon is a descendant of a Ruto who helped Link and Zelda defeat Ganondorf: Link only defeats Ganondorf in one timeline, the timeline that also has the Rito. So maybe there are two Rito races, but that still places TotK in the AT.

 

[Ryuu Kage Desu]

the only timeline where the Master Sword and Triforce are both missing and there are Rito and Gerudo is in the AT.

Except that:
- The Rito in question existed before there was Cloud Barrier.
- The crest for New Hyrule still contains a triangle, while there are no such representations I can find during Rauru's rule, aside from Sonia's tattoos. This means that the concept of the Triforce is known, but no triangular sources of power is reflected anywhere. Missing? Possibly. but it is still connected to the royal line, and the symbols from MC onward, even through the end of the Adult Timeline. What we do see, though, in the stain glass of Rauru's throne room, is a pattern that is reminiscent of the winged symbol we see in SS, which also makes it throughout the series.
- I'm not seeing any confirmation of Gerudo existing after the Flood, though I see plenty of characters who could be related. As a society, though, all gone, as far as I can tell. And, you would need to similarly include the Zora.
- The Master Sword would only be missing until re-population. And, the pedestal would still be there. It would be an option for zelda to heal the sword, at least until she exhausted all other options. Her actions indicate that the grounds for the pedestal was yet to be an option for the sword to be recovered at.

The Gerudo also jump between physiological differences in a pre-SS model.

We are told that the Gerudo do change their ear shape, depending on how close they are to the gods. This could be due to their actual faith, in relation to the gods of this world, suggesting the same thing could be happening with the humans/Hylians. It could also be who they breed with more predominantly; when they het closer to the Hylians, more of spring will have the pointed ears.

Sidon is a descendant of a Ruto who helped Link and Zelda defeat Ganondorf: Link only defeats Ganondorf in one timeline, the timeline that also has the Rito. So maybe there are two Rito races, but that still places TotK in the AT.

Problem with this, is we are dealing with a timeline where he is defeated many times. There are a lot of battles we are not seeing, and about as many reincarnation cycles. There is even the theory that suggests that the Divine Beasts were named after the sages from the memories, which could have led to a change of Ruto helped Link in the future, to a statement that is read in all past tense. (It's a stretch at this point, but still a possibility.) We also still don't have a definitive picture of everything that transpired between OoT and MM. We do know that Ganondorf's plans were already in motion, which including the problems with the Zora, leading room for Ruto's help defeating him being in a different way. For that matter, the sealing done before ALttP could also be considered a defeat. For all we know, it may be inevitable that the OoT sages become awakened, to deal with that Ganondorf, one way or another. We don't have enough information to say for sure, either way.

I have nothing against the Adult Timeline placement, I simply think the Downfall Timeline matches the current Hyrule a little better. Any placement can be made to fit, and I think that was the point. It's why we have so many blended timeline, and dragon-break theories.

 

[Ryuu Kage Desu]

I just came across this theory that provides more to back up your AT timeline placement, @GZ Zelda .
https://youtu.be/UDArdweekrk?si=VtoMT7NhwG-PagAG

 

[ASAP_Slash]

Told you so.

Also, CaC does not say that Calamity Ganon is the same as OoT. Although page. 401 tells a story that is similar to OoT, page. 362 tells us that it's not the same story because guess what, it respects the nomenclature and uses Ganon to refer to Ganondorf's beast form and states that it was Ganon who was sealed, not Ganondorf: