Spoiler My views on the timeline placement of BotW/TotK.

[Ryuu Kage Desu]

I'm all for pointing out how dumb the lore can be, but I've no intention of adding to it with contrivances like there being two Ganons. It just stems from a frustration instilled in me by stuff like TotK, since that game gives no ****s about its own lore.

At this point, we all need to pick our contrivances. I find that placing Rauru's reign before Skyward Sword requires the fewest, explains a lot more, and doesn't actually break any established, in game, lore.

 

[Bowsette Plus-Ultra]

At this point, we all need to pick our contrivances. I find that placing Rauru's reign before Skyward Sword requires the fewest, explains a lot more, and doesn't actually break any established, in game, lore.

Well, it does break the lore by showing Hylians inhabiting the surface prior to Skyward Sword, includes a species of sky people we never see again, shows Ganon appearing before Demise, and includes a wandering Master Sword that shouldn't exist. I just feel burned out by it. I've never assumed Nintendo gave a **** about the Zelda's lore, but TotK just feels like a big dump on everything.

It doesn't hurt that I've been playing Baldur's Gate 3, a sequel set 120 years after the previous entry that just makes its complex lore work without having to rush out any rationalization for a bunch of walking contradictions.

 

[Ryuu Kage Desu]

Well, it does break the lore by showing Hylians inhabiting the surface prior to Skyward Sword

Hylians already inhabited the surface before Skyward Sword. That's where the people came from. The structures we explore in that game are far too large, and specialized to be anything other than a large nation. The past of the Sealed Grounds is referred to as "Land of Hylia." The fact that the Hylian shield is present in the game even suggests that all of this, and what that nation was likely called. The shield was even legendary at the time of the game.

In fact, it tracks that Skyward Sword Zelda, spending time in the past and having memories of being Hylia, would keep the name of her kingdom from the past.

includes a species of sky people we never see again

Are you talking about the Hylians, living on Skyloft, or the sky people who have been talked about, referenced, and we have seen similar architecture for in Twilight Princess and Wind Waker, just off the top of my head. Not to mention that that Rauru and his sister are said to be the last two Zoni, by Ganondorf. Though, seeing as how similar they are to the Minish, in form, function, and powers of size manipulation, I think they became the Minish, giving the appearance of dying off.

Ganon appearing before Demise

Ganondorf not being able to appear before the curse is spoken makes as much sense as Link not being able to appear before he receives the blessing of Hylia. Nothing about the curse states that it will create individuals who didn't already exist. For that mater, when Ganondorf takes the stone from Sonia, he is obviously channeling the powers of Demise, which would be much easier if Demise were still alive.

For sake of completion, here, Ganondorf is not the reincarnation of Demise. Fi confirms that the spirit of Demise is destroyed, at the end.

includes a wandering Master Sword that shouldn't exist.

Nothing is wrong with this. The broken blade is unusable. The dragon that it is burred in is above the Sky Barrier, hiding both of them. There is no way that having a second, broken, out of reach Master sword changes anything about any of the previous games.

I've never assumed Nintendo gave a **** about the Zelda's lore, but TotK just feels like a big dump on everything.

All in game lore seems well and intact. It's okay if you personally don't like the new revealed lore, but it all does fit.

 

[Bowsette Plus-Ultra]

Hylians already inhabited the surface before Skyward Sword. That's where the people came from. The structures we explore in that game are far too large, and specialized to be anything other than a large nation. The past of the Sealed Grounds is referred to as "Land of Hylia." The fact that the Hylian shield is present in the game even suggests that all of this, and what that nation was likely called. The shield was even legendary at the time of the game.

In fact, it tracks that Skyward Sword Zelda, spending time in the past and having memories of being Hylia, would keep the name of her kingdom from the past.


Are you talking about the Hylians, living on Skyloft, or the sky people who have been talked about, referenced, and we have seen similar architecture for in Twilight Princess and Wind Waker, just off the top of my head. Not to mention that that Rauru and his sister are said to be the last two Zoni, by Ganondorf. Though, seeing as how similar they are to the Minish, in form, function, and powers of size manipulation, I think they became the Minish, giving the appearance of dying off.


Ganondorf not being able to appear before the curse is spoken makes as much sense as Link not being able to appear before he receives the blessing of Hylia. Nothing about the curse states that it will create individuals who didn't already exist. For that mater, when Ganondorf takes the stone from Sonia, he is obviously channeling the powers of Demise, which would be much easier if Demise were still alive.

For sake of completion, here, Ganondorf is not the reincarnation of Demise. Fi confirms that the spirit of Demise is destroyed, at the end.


Nothing is wrong with this. The broken blade is unusable. The dragon that it is burred in is above the Sky Barrier, hiding both of them. There is no way that having a second, broken, out of reach Master sword changes anything about any of the previous games.


All in game lore seems well and intact. It's okay if you personally don't like the new revealed lore, but it all does fit.

Since we don't see any indication of Hylians living on the surface it's even less likely than the idea that those ruins were once built and inhabited by something like the bokoblins or the moblins. There are no Hylians on the surface in SS, not even in the past, so I see no reason to fanfiction it up.

Maybe I missed something during my TotK playthrough but I recall zero mention of the Zonai having shape shifting powers. And the goat people of TotK have never been hinted at in any other game. This

is not this



and it is most certainly not

Zelda keeps making **** up to fill the role that a previously established thing could easily fulfill. It's the sort of bad writing designed to never answer questions, always ask them.

And while Ganon has never exactly been a villain with any amount of significance or depth, retconning the lore by saying, "Actually, Ganon was just some dude who already existed and that whole thing that Demise said about hatred and reincarnation was actually a load of toss," is some of the worst dramatic retcon writing I can think of. It's writing so bad I could explain it to fourteen year-old me in the midst of writing bad fanfiction and watch him visibly recoil from how bad the writing in his favorite franchise is becoming.

When you have to write this many circles around your lore for it to make sense then your lore sucks.

 

[GZ Zelda]

Hylians already inhabited the surface before Skyward Sword. That's where the people came from. The structures we explore in that game are far too large, and specialized to be anything other than a large nation. The past of the Sealed Grounds is referred to as "Land of Hylia." The fact that the Hylian shield is present in the game even suggests that all of this, and what that nation was likely called. The shield was even legendary at the time of the game.

But a major plot point in TotK is the building of the castle in the past, and we don't see that castle in Skyward Sword's world.

Are you talking about the Hylians, living on Skyloft, or the sky people who have been talked about, referenced, and we have seen similar architecture for in Twilight Princess and Wind Waker, just off the top of my head. Not to mention that that Rauru and his sister are said to be the last two Zoni, by Ganondorf. Though, seeing as how similar they are to the Minish, in form, function, and powers of size manipulation, I think they became the Minish, giving the appearance of dying off.

God guys from the heavens descend to the surface is not a new concept in Zelda: I think it would be fair to say the Minish, Oocca and Zonai all come from the same source but are not the same "species."

Ganondorf not being able to appear before the curse is spoken makes as much sense as Link not being able to appear before he receives the blessing of Hylia. Nothing about the curse states that it will create individuals who didn't already exist. For that mater, when Ganondorf takes the stone from Sonia, he is obviously channeling the powers of Demise, which would be much easier if Demise were still alive.

I guess I've always thought the Gerudo were obviously meant to be descended from Groose, but I guess that could be wrong. But the Rito definitely didn't exist until after the flood.

When you have to write this many circles around your lore for it to make sense then your lore sucks.

I mean Tears of the Kingdom obviously takes place in the Adult Timeline, there are Rito and Koroks which only exist on one timeline for a very specific reason, I don't understand why people are still arguing for other placements tbh.

 

[Bowsette Plus-Ultra]

I mean Tears of the Kingdom obviously takes place in the Adult Timeline, there are Rito and Koroks which only exist on one timeline for a very specific reason, I don't understand why people are still arguing for other placements tbh.

It also alleges to take place before Ocarina of Time while introducing contradictory information, stuff like the Rito... being a thing.

 

[Ryuu Kage Desu]

God guys from the heavens descend to the surface is not a new concept in Zelda: I think it would be fair to say the Minish, Oocca and Zonai all come from the same source but are not the same "species."

I'm okay with this too. Though -

Maybe I missed something during my TotK playthrough but I recall zero mention of the Zonai having shape shifting powers.

I said size manipulation, not shape shifting. When Link takes a shrine crystal to it's location, the crystal literally grows in size. The only thing that separates the physical form of the Zoni and the Minish, are the horns and the third eye, which both have a mechanical look. The hero aspect has neither the third eye or the horns, and even has a tail with a red tip. the eye and horns are obviously body modifications.

I guess I've always thought the Gerudo were obviously meant to be descended from Groose, but I guess that could be wrong. But the Rito definitely didn't exist until after the flood.

For the Rito, we have a few additional points to consider. The legend of the Storm Ark depicts a time before the Cloud Barrier. The Skyview Temple (SS) has images of loftwings, yet the statues that are found throughout the temple more closely resemble the Rito we see now. It's also worth noting that the Rito in Wind Waker have a different physiology, requiring the aid of a dragon to mature.

For Groose, I've always thought that too, until recently. Though, on my last play through, I realized that Groose wasn't the only red head on the island. It may be, if I am right about the time placement, that the very next male Gerudo, or rather the woman Hylia knew would lead to the next male, was sent up with Skyloft, to keep him from becoming the next Ganondorf, especially during the problems with the Imprisoned/Demise. Yet, he was still drawn to that source of power.

And while Ganon has never exactly been a villain with any amount of significance or depth, retconning the lore by saying, "Actually, Ganon was just some dude who already existed and that whole thing that Demise said about hatred and reincarnation was actually a load of toss," is some of the worst dramatic retcon writing I can think of.

Again, no retcon. Ganondorf is still part of the curse. Instead of the curse making Ganondorf from nowhere, He was already sealed below, and had strong ties to Demise's powers. When the curse is enacted, it latches on to Ganondorf, who is then able to trigger his own twisted resurrection. In fact, some are postulating that TotK Ganondorf was literally sent against Hyrule by his god - Demise. Then when Ganondorf failed, Demise pulled a Thanos, and decided to do it himself.

But a major plot point in TotK is the building of the castle in the past, and we don't see that castle in Skyward Sword's world.

Comparing the positions of the Master Sword pedestals in BotW/TotK and SS, and the Springs of power in those games, the castle in question is out of the map, for SS. I am currently working on an update on my map theory. Keep an eye out for that.

Since we don't see any indication of Hylians living on the surface it's even less likely than the idea that those ruins were once built and inhabited by something like the bokoblins or the moblins. There are no Hylians on the surface in SS, not even in the past, so I see no reason to fanfiction it up.

It's literally in the prologue of the game. Hylians are Hylia's chosen people. The humans of that title have the pointed ears. The humans, chosen by Hylia, who have pointed ears, were raised to the sky, by Hylia.

And, do your research before slinging baseless insults.

 

[Bowsette Plus-Ultra]

I'm okay with this too. Though -


I said size manipulation, not shape shifting. When Link takes a shrine crystal to it's location, the crystal literally grows in size. The only thing that separates the physical form of the Zoni and the Minish, are the horns and the third eye, which both have a mechanical look. The hero aspect has neither the third eye or the horns, and even has a tail with a red tip. the eye and horns are obviously body modifications.


For the Rito, we have a few additional points to consider. The legend of the Storm Ark depicts a time before the Cloud Barrier. The Skyview Temple (SS) has images of loftwings, yet the statues that are found throughout the temple more closely resemble the Rito we see now. It's also worth noting that the Rito in Wind Waker have a different physiology, requiring the aid of a dragon to mature.

For Groose, I've always thought that too, until recently. Though, on my last play through, I realized that Groose wasn't the only red head on the island. It may be, if I am right about the time placement, that the very next male Gerudo, or rather the woman Hylia knew would lead to the next male, was sent up with Skyloft, to keep him from becoming the next Ganondorf, especially during the problems with the Imprisoned/Demise. Yet, he was still drawn to that source of power.


Again, no retcon. Ganondorf is still part of the curse. Instead of the curse making Ganondorf from nowhere, He was already sealed below, and had strong ties to Demise's powers. When the curse is enacted, it latches on to Ganondorf, who is then able to trigger his own twisted resurrection. In fact, some are postulating that TotK Ganondorf was literally sent against Hyrule by his god - Demise. Then when Ganondorf failed, Demise pulled a Thanos, and decided to do it himself.


Comparing the positions of the Master Sword pedestals in BotW/TotK and SS, and the Springs of power in those games, the castle in question is out of the map, for SS. I am currently working on an update on my map theory. Keep an eye out for that.


It's literally in the prologue of the game. Hylians are Hylia's chosen people. The humans of that title have the pointed ears. The humans, chosen by Hylia, who have pointed ears, were raised to the sky, by Hylia.

And, do your research before slinging baseless insults.

Saying Ganon existed before Demise is a retcon, since Skyward Sword's whole point was to serve as the basis from which the vague evil of Ganon started. It's the point of the game and is doubly reinforced by it being brought up in the two released reference books. Retconning that would be like Star Wars saying, "Actually, there were two Darth Vaders the whole time and Anakin Skywalker wasn't Darth Vader." It would be awful.

And true, humans do appear in the intro. I'll reiterate that it doesn't make the ruins that of humans, but they do appear.

And... what baseless insults?

 

[Ryuu Kage Desu]

And... what baseless insults?

I see no reason to fanfiction it up.

I get that you are angry over what you think is wrong with the new game. It does not mean that you need to lash out by ignoring a point of view, and calling it fanfiction. If you don't understand a run of logic; ask.

Saying Ganon existed before Demise is a retcon, since Skyward Sword's whole point was to serve as the basis from which the vague evil of Ganon started. It's the point of the game and is doubly reinforced by it being brought up in the two released reference books. Retconning that would be like Star Wars saying, "Actually, there were two Darth Vaders the whole time and Anakin Skywalker wasn't Darth Vader." It would be awful.

No. Demise is still the origin of that evil. Ganondorf is obviously drawing power from Demise, even before getting the stone. Your Star Wars analogy is a better fit for Darth Maul. He was in Vader's place before Vader. Palpatine trained them both, and would stand in for Demise, here. It simply means that Demise was more active than being asleep, waking up, then choosing violence. This gives both characters more dimensionality.

 

[Bowsette Plus-Ultra]

I get that you are angry over what you think is wrong with the new game. It does not mean that you need to lash out by ignoring a point of view, and calling it fanfiction. If you don't understand a run of logic; ask.


No. Demise is still the origin of that evil. Ganondorf is obviously drawing power from Demise, even before getting the stone. Your Star Wars analogy is a better fit for Darth Maul. He was in Vader's place before Vader. Palpatine trained them both, and would stand in for Demise, here. It simply means that Demise was more active than being asleep, waking up, then choosing violence. This gives both characters more dimensionality.

My apologies if the use of fanfiction seemed derogatory. That wasn't my intention. My intention was to use it as shorthand for fans being forced to write the connecting tissue between the disconnected severed fingers of stuff like Skyward Sword and TotK. I wrote plenty of Zelda fanfiction back in my teens and still scribble some out now.

I don't think I'd call Demise and Palpatine a fair comparison, since Palopatine, Vader, and Maul all exist in one time frame and all interact. They're aware of each other and reference each other to the point of sometimes fighting. Something like TotK's Ganon just drops in, contradicts the lore, and waits for threads like this to pop out and say, "No, wait! It isn't that Nintendo has bad writers and doesn't care about the continuity, there's actually a secret connection Nintendo will never mention or acknowledge!"

That's how I see stuff like TotK and even Zelda as a whole. Put as little effort into the overarching lore as possible (and name-drop the Imprisoning War while claiming it's a totally different event) and wait for the fanfiction to write the story for you.

Good lore doesn't needs fans to finish writing it.

 

[Ryuu Kage Desu]

My apologies if the use of fanfiction seemed derogatory. That wasn't my intention. My intention was to use it as shorthand for fans being forced to write the connecting tissue between the disconnected severed fingers of stuff like Skyward Sword and TotK. I wrote plenty of Zelda fanfiction back in my teens and still scribble some out now.

I don't think I'd call Demise and Palpatine a fair comparison, since Palopatine, Vader, and Maul all exist in one time frame and all interact. They're aware of each other and reference each other to the point of sometimes fighting. Something like TotK's Ganon just drops in, contradicts the lore, and waits for threads like this to pop out and say, "No, wait! It isn't that Nintendo has bad writers and doesn't care about the continuity, there's actually a secret connection Nintendo will never mention or acknowledge!"

That's how I see stuff like TotK and even Zelda as a whole. Put as little effort into the overarching lore as possible (and name-drop the Imprisoning War while claiming it's a totally different event) and wait for the fanfiction to write the story for you.

Good lore doesn't needs fans to finish writing it.

I see. That is different when directed at the company.

For me, it is the loose writing that has always run through the series that interests me as a theorist. I don't find it as fun, or interesting, to theorize about the Lord of the Rings, for instance. I much prefer to study the lore as is. For me, the holes in the lore is a feature, not a problem, regardless of how careless the writing actually is.

Do I want more real details to work with? Absolutely. As is, I choose to have fun with, and speculate about, what we do have.

 

[Spiritual Mask Salesman]

I've yet to post in this thread. I probably should be holding off until I finally go to do the final battle to finish the main quest, but I've done the Dragon's Tear questline and gotten the bulk of the story I'm guessing.

Before Tears I was convinced Breath of the Wild could only work on the Downfall Timeline, and Tears would follow suit. When the game's intro name dropped "The Imprisoning War" I thought, "this is it, confirmation of what I suspected all along!"

Then Ganondorf name dropped Rauru, and my mind went to Ocarina of Time Rauru. It all seemed like it was coming together... until it didn't, lol.

This had to be a different Imprisoning War, because we know Ganondorf didn't stay sealed away. The era Zelda was sent back to was not the same era from Ocarina of Time. It's said to be the founding of Hyrule, however, and Ganondorf is still a man rather than in his demon boar form.

So where the heck does the past era from Tears of the Kingdom correlate to on the timeline?

It really only makes sense to me as an event far removed from all other games still, and on the downfall timeline. The kingdom of Hyrule likely collapased and then Rauru came along to re-establish a kingdom which was the basis of a new era of Hyrule where the older era was forgotten. Ganondorf is likely reincarnated at this point after a prolonged stint of going nowhere as Ganon. So Ganondorf in Tears is not the same man from Ocarina of Time. He gets sealed away by Rauru, but his malice seeps through the seal creating Calamity Ganon. Calamity Ganon becomes an issue, prompting the creation of the Divine Beasts which are based on the animal masks of the sages who helped Rauru to seal Ganondorf.

Cue the Calamity of 10,000 years ago. Followed by The Great Calamity of 100 years before Breath of the Wild.

Sometime after Breath of the Wild, malice begins to change into gloom due to the seal on Ganondorf waning. Then the events of Link's new adventure in Tears unfold.

I can't really see any other option to work the past era shown in Tears into the timeline.

Regardless, one thing is very clear to me: I got the impression that Tears is meant to reboot the lore of the series, or at least set a new beginning point for games hereafter to be based off of in terms of lore.

I had this impression so strongly, my alternate theory was that Breath of the Wild and Tears are their own continuity now removed from the continuity of the established timeline.

 

[Moblinking5000]

It really only makes sense to me as an event far removed from all other games still, and on the downfall timeline. The kingdom of Hyrule likely collapased and then Rauru came along to re-establish a kingdom which was the basis of a new era of Hyrule where the older era was forgotten. Ganondorf is likely reincarnated at this point after a prolonged stint of going nowhere as Ganon. So Ganondorf in Tears is not the same man from Ocarina of Time. He gets sealed away by Rauru, but his malice seeps through the seal creating Calamity Ganon. Calamity Ganon becomes an issue, prompting the creation of the Divine Beasts which are based on the animal masks of the sages who helped Rauru to seal Ganondorf.

Why not take the game at its word, that this is the founding of Hyrule, instead of saying that this is a refounding?

I had this impression so strongly, my alternate theory was that Breath of the Wild and Tears are their own continuity now removed from the continuity of the established timeline.

This doesn't work, as TotK was added to the official timeline on the official Japanese site after its midnight release, and both BotW and TotK reference the Era of the Hero of Time(the references to Ruto in both games, and to Nabooru in the former). Both of these games are a part of the timeline.

 

[mαrkαsscoρ]

Why not take the game at its word, that this is the founding of Hyrule, instead of saying that this is a refounding?


This doesn't work, as TotK was added to the official timeline on the official Japanese site after its midnight release, and both BotW and TotK reference the Era of the Hero of Time(the references to Ruto in both games, and to Nabooru in the former). Both of these games are a part of the timeline.

whether you like it or not, there's a few too many contrivances for many people to accept by having this be the actual founding

a refounding is easier for it to work, though of course the game doesn't definitively indicate that, so it's either swallow all those ginormous pills or just go on speculation

nintendo really really reaaaally wants to have their cake and eat it too (I hate this analogy), they want these games to be far removed from the timeline and all but reboot it, but still want to pull from bits of past lore

 

[Spiritual Mask Salesman]

Why not take the game at its word, that this is the founding of Hyrule, instead of saying that this is a refounding?

There's too many contradictions. The Zora and Rito already exist in Tear's past era, but are nowhere to be seen in Skyward Sword. Races from Skyward Sword like the Paralla, Kikwi, and Mogma should be around but aren't in the past shown in Tears of the Kingdom. Geographically, Skyward Sword has no resemblence at all to Hyrule from BotW and TotK, and we see structures from Tear's past era that are still around in BotW and the present day storyline of TotK, such as the Temple of Time from The Great Plateau (the cutscene where Ganondorf swears fealty to Rauru takes place inside it). Rauru wouldn't need to found Hyrule in Hylia's timeframe of being alive anyway, unless we're trying to assert that Rauru set up for Hylia's era, which I don't see as being likely.

This doesn't work, as TotK was added to the official timeline on the official Japanese site after its midnight release, and both BotW and TotK reference the Era of the Hero of Time(the references to Ruto in both games, and to Nabooru in the former). Both of these games are a part of the timeline.

It was added after Breath of the Wild, but both games still have a divider between the games of the established timeline. I feel like if they want the past era lore of Tears to fit before Skyward Sword, they'd need to outline that. They haven't. Even those past events work better as either taking place long after Legend of Zelda, or even viewing it as a completely seperate continuity works, because making it so far removed from all other games basically does that anyway.

Also going to add that on the NoA timeline page BotW and Tears are not even listed, idk if BotW was at one point, if they once had it listed, they removed it.