Link to the Past->Oracle Games: Same Link?

[JuicieJ]

I'm actually getting at why he would be their ruler after TP. FSA would take place hundreds of years after OoT's CT ending, right? If so, OoT's Ganondorf shouldn't be the Gerudo's leader/guardian, and a new Gerudo male would be (specifically, one that was born less than 100 years ago).

This is one of the things that prevents the FSS from being accurately placed anywhere on the "timeline". There's much more to it, it's not important right now. What I would like to know is why, if he's different, why he's so much like the previous Gerudo King. I mean, this isn't like with Link and Zelda where they're reincarnated to stop the evil about to rise. This is just a new king thing. I highly doubt Ganondorf would be reincarnated, as there's no reason for him to be, unlike with Link and Zelda. And why have him named the same? That just seems pointless if he's someone new.

Ah, but that's where FSA actually gives us an explanation. The Gerudo only dislike him because of breaking their laws recently (leaving to the pyramid, to be specific). Which would imply that he hadn't done anything bad until the day he left for the trident, which wouldn't match OoT Ganondorf...

What? Are you serious? The Gerudo didn't mind him trying to take over Hyrule ("doing something bad") because they're evil, as well. They're thieves. They followed him, calling him the Great Ganondorf. They didn't care what Ganondorf did to a different people (yes, that's correct English). But when he broke one of their laws, that's a completely different story.

Actually, no one was expecting Ganondorf in FSA. Nobody knew about his intentions until you actually get to the room where the trident should be. If it's dangerous for him to get the trident, it would be equally as dangerous for him to try getting the trident as he would have had a reputation for trying to obtain power.

Of course no one was. He'd been chased out. Who would have expected him to go and get the Trident? Especially when it's a secret thing that only the Gerudo knew about? That argument doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

I actually went through the thread I mentioned before and must've missed your arguments against. What are some holes with FSA being a separate Ganondorf?

If you didn't go back to The Multiple Deaths of Ganondorf!, then I probably didn't have any arguments in it. But if it was, my arguments are all over that thread. They're impossible to miss, especially since I was talking to you half the time.[/QUOTE]

 

[Forlong]

I actually went through the thread I mentioned before and must've missed your arguments against. What are some holes with FSA being a separate Ganondorf?

"Yes, son, I decided to name you after that jerk that stole our most sacred artifact in search for ultimate power. Uh...so you wouldn't turn out like him."
Also, Ganondorf choices to turn into a very similar form has with the Trident, only using the Triforce.

Well, the developers disagree. MM didn't make the adult timeline non-canon at all. There were no contradictions with the classic games being in the adult timeline, and OoT was the Imprisoning War.

Yeah, that explains how Ganondorf somehow got the Triforce of Wisdom and Trifoce of Courage, despite failing to do so. Or how Hylian girls are descended from a Goron, a Zora, and a perpetually 10-year-old girl. Or how everyone somehow forgot that it was Ganondorf that caused all their grief (it's not like remember the names of ruthless dictators is important). Or how somehow thousands of the Knights of Hyrule died protecting the Sages when none of them were in sight. I spotted all of this on my first play-through. You don't make this many plot holes, each of which the USS Enterprise D can fly through, when trying to make a coherent prequel. Either they didn't care, or they ditched the whole "Sealing War" some time during production.

Why not? Do you even know it has a connection to the Gerudo? FSA's Gerudo were nomadic, so I think it's more likely they move about as they please.

Fits with my theory. The Gerudo could have started nomadic, but rooted themselves in the desert. The only reason they'd go from rooted to nomadic is if their home was occupied. All that was in their territory were those pathetic Bakugoblins. Doesn't seem likely those would have chased them off. No, their extinction is the most likely reason that their territory is deserted.

Not sure how this is at all relevant...

You're assuming the state of the Gerudo tribe in OoT was always how they were. FSA proves that was not always the case.

Instead, FSA gives the desert the same name it has in ALttP, which suggest closer chronological connection to ALttP than before OoT.

Lake Hylia
Lost Woods
Zora's River
All three of these have constantly been changing locations between games. Wouldn't it make just as much sense for their to be two "Desert of Doubt's" over the course of the series? Unlike "Gerudo Desert", which ties the land to a specific people, it's a rather vague name. Also, that goes against the far more concrete evidence of the Gerudo, who only appear in OoT and FSA. And in both cases are near Hyrule. You might as well say that LoZ and AoL occur between OoT and TP, claiming that the Gorons left Death Mountain for no reason and returned for no reason.

Two origins for Ganondorf back to back? While FSA Hyrule is obviously a throwback to a post-OoT game? Plus, there's Aonuma's implications of SS being the only pre-OoT game as of the moment.

The formation of the US Congress lead up to the Civil War. Doesn't mean they happened back-to-back. SS does canonly lead up to the events of OoT, however the way it does so are unclear and could leave room for the events of the "Four Swords" arc. Until it comes out, we can't be sure.

Also, I fail to see how Ganondorf having "two origins" is a problem. He's lived for thousands of years and has had a lot of experiences. His greatest strength is his depth as a character. No one Zelda game covers everything there is to cover on Ganondorf. This would be why Nintendo keeps using him for their games.

 

[JuicieJ]

"Yes, son, I decided to name you after that jerk that stole our most sacred artifact in search for ultimate power. Uh...so you wouldn't turn out like him."
Also, Ganondorf choices to turn into a very similar form has with the Trident, only using the Triforce.

You misunderstand. If it was a different Ganondorf, he would have been the one to steal it, not the other way around.

 

[Jarsh]

"Yes, son, I decided to name you after that jerk that stole our most sacred artifact in search for ultimate power. Uh...so you wouldn't turn out like him."
Also, Ganondorf choices to turn into a very similar form has with the Trident, only using the Triforce.

I think you're greatly misunderstanding my argument, as JuicieJ pointed out. Besides, who says "Ganondorf" isn't a passed-down Gerudo name. The name doesn't make the person.

Yeah, that explains how Ganondorf somehow got the Triforce of Wisdom and Trifoce of Courage, despite failing to do so. Or how Hylian girls are descended from a Goron, a Zora, and a perpetually 10-year-old girl. Or how everyone somehow forgot that it was Ganondorf that caused all their grief (it's not like remember the names of ruthless dictators is important). Or how somehow thousands of the Knights of Hyrule died protecting the Sages when none of them were in sight. I spotted all of this on my first play-through. You don't make this many plot holes, each of which the USS Enterprise D can fly through, when trying to make a coherent prequel. Either they didn't care, or they ditched the whole "Sealing War" some time during production.

Miyamoto himself covered this recently. They do make the games fall into a continuity, but there will be contradictions. The fact of the matter is, OoT was the Imprisoning War until its release, and Osawa even said it was a couple days after its release.

Fits with my theory. The Gerudo could have started nomadic, but rooted themselves in the desert. The only reason they'd go from rooted to nomadic is if their home was occupied. All that was in their territory were those pathetic Bakugoblins. Doesn't seem likely those would have chased them off. No, their extinction is the most likely reason that their territory is deserted.

It's not the most likely reason, and you never really said why it was anyhow. They can become nomadic once they rid themselves of their thieving ways. Honestly, it just doesn't really matter.

You're assuming the state of the Gerudo tribe in OoT was always how they were. FSA proves that was not always the case.

I would assume that because I don't think FSA is before OoT.

Lake Hylia
Lost Woods
Zora's River
All three of these have constantly been changing locations between games. Wouldn't it make just as much sense for their to be two "Desert of Doubt's" over the course of the series? Unlike "Gerudo Desert", which ties the land to a specific people, it's a rather vague name. Also, that goes against the far more concrete evidence of the Gerudo, who only appear in OoT and FSA. And in both cases are near Hyrule. You might as well say that LoZ and AoL occur between OoT and TP, claiming that the Gorons left Death Mountain for no reason and returned for no reason.

Not really, when FSA has pretty much the same map as ALttP's, with the same names. Its geographical names being the same as OoT's is only a result of ALttP also having those names. And LoZ and AoL could go between OoT and TP if not for other contradicting evidence (none of which have to do with Gorons). The thing is, the Gerudo in OoT and FSA are so different that they may as well be a different tribe (since they're nomadic and not thieves, who respect the desert). Because of that, their appearance in regards to the timeline doesn't need to suggest that FSA and OoT take place closely to each other.

The formation of the US Congress lead up to the Civil War. Doesn't mean they happened back-to-back. SS does canonly lead up to the events of OoT, however the way it does so are unclear and could leave room for the events of the "Four Swords" arc. Until it comes out, we can't be sure.

Also, I fail to see how Ganondorf having "two origins" is a problem. He's lived for thousands of years and has had a lot of experiences. His greatest strength is his depth as a character. No one Zelda game covers everything there is to cover on Ganondorf. This would be why Nintendo keeps using him for their games.

False comparison. Both OoT and FSA Ganondorf are, well, Ganondorf. Doesn't make sense to show his rise to power twice in a row, from a storytelling perspective. FSA and OoT both cover that, and Ganon being sealed in the Four Sword doesn't at all suggest that OoT somehow happens next.

 

[Forlong]

Not really, when FSA has pretty much the same map as ALttP's, with the same names. Its geographical names being the same as OoT's is only a result of ALttP also having those names. And LoZ and AoL could go between OoT and TP if not for other contradicting evidence (none of which have to do with Gorons). The thing is, the Gerudo in OoT and FSA are so different that they may as well be a different tribe (since they're nomadic and not thieves, who respect the desert). Because of that, their appearance in regards to the timeline doesn't need to suggest that FSA and OoT take place closely to each other.

That's flimsy at best. The locations in Zelda have changed time and time again. That is not a valid reason to place the games on the timeline. By that logic, LoZ and OoT must have occurred in the same time-frame because both had islands in the middle of Lake Hylia.

False comparison. Both OoT and FSA Ganondorf are, well, Ganondorf. Doesn't make sense to show his rise to power twice in a row, from a storytelling perspective. FSA and OoT both cover that, and Ganon being sealed in the Four Sword doesn't at all suggest that OoT somehow happens next.

What rise to power? You mean him getting a powerful tool and getting curb-stomped before he could actually do anything with it? Ganondorf just got the Trident and was sealed away immediately. He didn't rise to power because he didn't have a chance to.

 

[Capitaine]

That's flimsy at best. The locations in Zelda have changed time and time again. That is not a valid reason to place the games on the timeline. By that logic, LoZ and OoT must have occurred in the same time-frame because both had islands in the middle of Lake Hylia.

There was no Lake Hylia in LoZ.

What rise to power? You mean him getting a powerful tool and getting curb-stomped before he could actually do anything with it? Ganondorf just got the Trident and was sealed away immediately. He didn't rise to power because he didn't have a chance to.

He managed to cover parts of Hyrule in darkness and the Deku were worshipping him....

 

[Jarsh]

That's flimsy at best. The locations in Zelda have changed time and time again. That is not a valid reason to place the games on the timeline. By that logic, LoZ and OoT must have occurred in the same time-frame because both had islands in the middle of Lake Hylia.

Just because you say it's flimsy doesn't make it so. Besides, your example is wrong as Capitaine pointed out.

What rise to power? You mean him getting a powerful tool and getting curb-stomped before he could actually do anything with it? Ganondorf just got the Trident and was sealed away immediately. He didn't rise to power because he didn't have a chance to.

I don't mean that at all, as Capitaine pointed out. You still didn't answer he Ganon being trapped in the Four Sword at the end of FSA somehow leads into everyone forgetting everything about him in OoT, and him not being in the Four Sword in OoT.

 

[Forlong]

Wait, Jarsh, this thread is about LttP and OoX! How did we start arguing about OoT and FSA!? Okay, if we're going to continue that, we'd have to do it on another thread, because this one just went crazy.

 

[Rytex]

There is some evidence that points to them being the same. For example, Link mistook Marin for Zelda. Zelda in OoX is simply the Marin sprite with a crown. Also, Link sets sail on a ship at the end of the Linked Quest, and he wrecks at the beginning of LA.

Some evidence to the contrary, in OoX, Link faced a resurrected form of Ganon, meaning he was dead. In ALttP, we see that he was alive and well inside the Dark World, and he unwishes everything he does in ALttP (Link's uncle died, yet he recovered. The King of Hyrule was eliminated, and he returned. Flute Boy became a tree, yet he was seen alive and well at the end) and this means that, although he destroyed Ganon in the game, Ganon came back through the wish (well, Link is the wielder of Courage and not Wisdom). And since LA is considered a direct sequel to ALttP, this means that, if OoX were to take place between the two, Ganon would be alive, meaning the resurrection the Twinrova go through is a bit of a pointless paradox. Why try to resurrect a guy who's still alive? Also, Ganon is alive in TLoZ, and Link obliterated him in OoX. And he didn't simply banish him, he KILLED Ganon. So how would ganon come back if the Twinrova were gone? Did the monsters spill Link's blood over Ganon's ashes, like in AoL? Maybe, maybe not. Who knows but Nintendo if this is how it went down.

 

[Capitaine]

In ALttP, we see that he was alive and well inside the Dark World, and he unwishes everything he does in ALttP (Link's uncle died, yet he recovered. The King of Hyrule was eliminated, and he returned. Flute Boy became a tree, yet he was seen alive and well at the end) and this means that, although he destroyed Ganon in the game, Ganon came back through the wish (well, Link is the wielder of Courage and not Wisdom).

Why couldn't Link have just wished for everyone harmed by Ganon's evil to return to normal? That would leave Ganon dead and everyone else alive, like a proper ending.

 

[Rytex]

Why couldn't Link have just wished for everyone harmed by Ganon's evil to return to normal? That would leave Ganon dead and everyone else alive, like a proper ending.

Like I said, he's the wielder of Courage, not Wisdom.

 

[Capitaine]

Like I said, he's the wielder of Courage, not Wisdom.

And in ALttP, he's the wielder of the whole Triforce. What's your point?