Ghirahim=Best Villian in Zelda?

[DarkestLink]

Just because they are the same "species" doesn't mean they think and work the exact same way.

Of course not. They were given different directives. Their goals are opposite.

I shouldn't have to provide evidence since it's so obvious. If Ghirahim's not controlled, he has free will.

So how do you know he's not controlled? Don't answer this. Read my next point first.

And besides, what evidence do you have that Ghirahim is programmed?

So I'm curious, when has Ghirahim ever been shown thinking for himself? When has he ever considered what was best for him?

Zant revived Ganondorf, yes, but he had something to gain from that. Ganondorf gave him power. He gave him a kingdom. And Zant believed that Ganondorf's existence was insurance for his own life. He believed if anything happened, Ganondorf would revive him.

Ghirahim? He has no incentive to help Demise. If he had killed Link and shoved Demise off to the side, he could have conquered the entire world. Demise's revival means Ghirahim's doom. Demise tosses Ghirahim to the side and turns him into a sword. That's all he is to Demise. A tool. So he has no personal gain to help Demise, and I doubt he met Demise beforehand. I highly doubt it. When Demise was around, Ghirahim was a sword. Just like when Demise came back. So how could be feel loyalty towards someone he never met? And have you seen him express loyalty to Demise? I haven't.

His behavior is like Fi's behavior in the beginning. She had no loyalty for Link. She helped him because it was her mission and nothing else. The same can be said for Ghirahim. They both do what they do because that's their directive. Sure, they both call Demise and Link "Master", but there's nothing behind it.

Zant and Cole not only show loyalty to their Masters, but they show outright worship. You never see that with Ghirahim. Ghirahim just wants to bring him back and that's it. That's all he talks about when it comes to Demise: braining him back. Alright, sorry for droning on, but in the end...why else would Ghirahim bring Demise back?

Does he benefit from this? No.

Does he have reason to be loyal to Demise? No.

Does he express loyalty or any type of love/worship to Demise? No.

Does he lose anything from Demise coming back? Yes. He practically loses his life if you want to view it that way.

Where did you get that Ghirahim never met Demise? Demise turns Ghirahim back into his sword form, and he reacts with emotion. He becomes happy, and is delighted with the results.

What? What are you talking about? Are you confusing this for the scene when Demise is initially revived? To be sure, I checked the scene again.

Welcome back Master.

*Demise blasts Ghirahim*

*Ghirahim floats in the air, passed out*

*Demise pulls the sword from him while Ghirahim screams in pain*

*Demise takes his sword and absorbs Ghirahim into it m

I don't see how someone that is programmed can have so much emotion and react with joy, unlike someone like Fi, who has almost no emotion.

Then explain Scrapper, the love sick, moody robot.

What about all the times he toyed with Link? If he was being controlled or was programmed by Demise, he probably would have only done what is necessary to complete the mission, but instead, he did what he wanted and toyed with Link.

He toyed with Link the first time because, as far as he was concerned, Link had nothing to do with the mission.

Second time he tries to kill Link, but quits and decides to follow him instead.

Third time he tries to kill Link when he is harming the missions progress, but fails.

I already explained why he isn't programmed. He's loyal because Demise created him, and because he is a demon. All demons are loyal to Demise.

1) Batreaux

2) Where did you hear that?

But here's the difference. Ghirahim has emotion and perrsonality. Fi doesn't.

You must have skipped the ending.

Ghirahim acts on his own agenda. Fi only does what is nessacary. How do you not see the difference?

The one time that he actually went out of his way to do something unnecessary was when he was fighting Link the first time. And yes, they have personalities. Even the real robots have personalities. They have emotions. But Fi and Ghirahim are only moved by their directives. They don't think about what's best for them.

Fi fulfills her mission even though it pretty much leads to her death (or "sleep").

Ghirahim follows his mission even though it pretty much leads to his death (or "sleep").

No logical reason to do it outside of programming.

Weapons aren't alive.

1) Fi

2) Ghirahim.

He can't be just a weapon.

Wait a minute....

Maybe a weapon is his true form

1) You contradicted yourself.

2) He directly says he's a weapon.

Since he has control over his actions,

So do the robots.

and is obviously a living organim,

He's a hunk of metal.

he is a form of life. If he is a form of life, than the only form of life that makes sense for him to be is a demon.

First define form of life. He hasn't shown anything more than the robots and Fi have. Actually, no, even the robots show more concern for themselves and their own well being than Ghirahim does. They show more love and emotion than he does.

I know he said he's a weapon, and I don't doubt that, but he is obviously a form of life. He can be both.

...But didn't you just say...?

Weapons aren't alive. He can't be just a weapon.

Y'know...the most ironic part of all of this is the fact that between the robots and Ghirahim....Ghirahim acts more like a robot than they do.

 

[Spirit]

I didn't like him. He grated on me after the first encounter, i knew his type straight away, i've seen it before in so many animes that it kind of hurt to see such a thing in Zelda. I wont bang on about his personality or arc being any great piece of work because its Zelda and Zelda rarely has any great character development but he was by far the most increasingly annoying. We get that you're a vain submissive self obsessed prick... move on... stop talking.... really... shut it.

 

[Kirino]

So how do you know he's not controlled?

Becuase of the way he toys with Link, and because his personality is completely different fron Demise. There's no reason to assume his actions are being controlled by Demise, and if he was possesed/controlled by Demise, he wouldn't have toyed with Link or braged about his physique. Demise would of never done these things. If you're trying to say that Demise posseses Ghirahim and forces him to do what Demise wants him to do, then you're wrong.

So I'm curious, when has Ghirahim ever been shown thinking for himself? When has he ever considered what was best for him?

Zant revived Ganondorf, yes, but he had something to gain from that. Ganondorf gave him power. He gave him a kingdom. And Zant believed that Ganondorf's existence was insurance for his own life. He believed if anything happened, Ganondorf would revive him.

Ghirahim? He has no incentive to help Demise. If he had killed Link and shoved Demise off to the side, he could have conquered the entire world. Demise's revival means Ghirahim's doom. Demise tosses Ghirahim to the side and turns him into a sword. That's all he is to Demise. A tool. So he has no personal gain to help Demise, and I doubt he met Demise beforehand. I highly doubt it. When Demise was around, Ghirahim was a sword. Just like when Demise came back. So how could be feel loyalty towards someone he never met? And have you seen him express loyalty to Demise? I haven't.

His behavior is like Fi's behavior in the beginning. She had no loyalty for Link. She helped him because it was her mission and nothing else. The same can be said for Ghirahim. They both do what they do because that's their directive. Sure, they both call Demise and Link "Master", but there's nothing behind it.

Zant and Cole not only show loyalty to their Masters, but they show outright worship. You never see that with Ghirahim. Ghirahim just wants to bring him back and that's it. That's all he talks about when it comes to Demise: braining him back. Alright, sorry for droning on, but in the end...why else would Ghirahim bring Demise back?

Does he benefit from this? No.

Does he have reason to be loyal to Demise? No.

Does he express loyalty or any type of love/worship to Demise? No.

Does he lose anything from Demise coming back? Yes. He practically loses his life if you want to view it that way.

Where do you get this idea that Ghirahim used to always be just a sword? That he never met Demise before? I can't recall a time when this was stated in game. And no, he has nothing to gain, but he does it anyways. Some people are so loyal, that they will blindly follow and give their life for something. This isn't true for just Demise, but lots of actual people. Ghirahim is loyal because Demise created him. That's all the reason he needs. Many Americans are loyal to America just because they were born there. Demise is Ghirahim's master. Ghirahim may even look at Demise as a God.

What? What are you talking about? Are you confusing this for the scene when Demise is initially revived? To be sure, I checked the scene again.

Welcome back Master.

*Demise blasts Ghirahim*

*Ghirahim floats in the air, passed out*

*Demise pulls the sword from him while Ghirahim screams in pain*

*Demise takes his sword and absorbs Ghirahim into it m

Watch the scene again. Ghirahim laughs, he doesn't scream in pain.

[video=youtube_share;ncjUI0bqqrM]http://youtu.be/ncjUI0bqqrM[/video]

Then explain Scrapper, the love sick, moody robot.

Being programmed and being a robot are two totally different things. Robots can be built to think independantly.

He toyed with Link the first time because, as far as he was concerned, Link had nothing to do with the mission.

He saw that Link had the Goddess Sword, so obviously he knew Link had something to do with the mission. Besides, the most efficient way to accomplish his goal would be to kill Link quickly and move on, but instead, he toyed with Link and gave Zelda more time to escape. Wasting his time was counterproductive. This was a time where he didn't follow his plan to revive Demise, and instead chose to toy with Link, and doing so caused Zelda to escape. He knew he was supposed to be chasing Zelda, and did this anyways, while knowing that it would waste time. He took a detour, and did what he wanted indtead of following the mission.

He's a hunk of metal.

Hunks of metal breath? They have hair, and skin? They can taste?

...But didn't you just say...?

I said he can't be Just a weapon. Meaning he has to be something more. When did I ever say he can't be a weapon?

 

[DarkestLink]

Because of the way he toys with Link, and because his personality is completely different fron Demise.

1) I really don't see it.

Ghirahim=Bloodthirsty/Cocky/Elitist/Happy

Demise=Bloodthirsty/Cocky/Elitist/Angry.

2) Doesn't have to specifically be Demise. It could simply be his directive.

and if he was possesed/controlled by Demise, he wouldn't have toyed with Link

Debatable. Demise seemed interested in killing Link for the mere sport of it too.

or braged about his physique.

Despite Demise doing the exact same thing. Again, it doesn't even have to necessary be Demise.

If you're trying to say that Demise posseses Ghirahim and forces him to do what Demise wants him to do, then you're wrong.

Possessed? No. He was just given a directive and has to follow it.

Where do you get this idea that Ghirahim used to always be just a sword?

Because he's a sword.

That he never met Demise before?

Because he's a sword. He seemed completely dead/unconscious when Demise made the some form psychical.

And no, he has nothing to gain, but he does it anyways. Some people are so loyal, that they will blindly follow and give their life for something.

I didn't see any loyalty. Just directive.

Ghirahim is loyal because Demise created him. That's all the reason he needs.

I only recall seeing directive. Feel free to point out something that expresses loyalty over just a directive.

Demise is Ghirahim's master. Ghirahim may even look at Demise as a God.

Too bad we never saw that. It would have improved his character that much more.

Watch the scene again. Ghirahim laughs, he doesn't scream in pain.

[video=youtube_share;ncjUI0bqqrM]http://youtu.be/ncjUI0bqqrM[/video]

Here's the same scene, but longer. Take note of 2:10, 3:00, and 3:30

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XP4R8WaHKzY

2:10: There he is...laughing happily. Watch as he bounces happily at his Master's revival. AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

3:00: He gets blasted...a look of sadness on his face...he even tries to fight a little....

3:30: He starts screaming in pain. His head is faced towards the sky and rather than making the same sound as before, he makes this sound URGH! URRRRAAARGGGHHH!!! AAAAAARRRRRGGHHH!

Being programmed and being a robot are two totally different things. Robots can be built to think independantly.

A robot is a computer...now please tell me how you make a computer with

He saw that Link had the Goddess Sword, so obviously he knew Link had something to do with the mission.

He didn't even seem to know what it was. He just remarked it was a nice sword. Then again, how would he? It was in the sky the whole time.

Besides, the most efficient way to accomplish his goal would be to kill Link quickly and move on, but instead, he toyed with Link and gave Zelda more time to escape.

1) He seemed unable to get past the door.

2) As far as he knew, Link had nothing to do with the mission.

Wasting his time was counterproductive.

He had nothing else to do. The door was sealed to him.

This was a time where he didn't follow his plan to revive Demise, and instead chose to toy with Link, and doing so caused Zelda to escape.

He couldn't get her. It was over.

He knew he was supposed to be chasing Zelda, and did this anyways, while knowing that it would waste time. He took a detour, and did what he wanted indtead of following the mission.

Detour? His only hope was to wait for Zelda to come out, but he didn't know Impa was there and could teleport.

Hunks of metal breath?

Apparently.

They have hair,

Made of metal.

and skin?

Made of metal.

They can taste?

Seeing how he licks blood and doesn't eat, I doubt he can.

I said he can't be Just a weapon. Meaning he has to be something more. When did I ever say he can't be a weapon?

Well whatever you wanna call it. He's the same thing as Fi. His appearance and his own words verify this....heck...even his text box verifies it. They use the same one for Fi.

 

[Igos du Ikana]

1)Well whatever you wanna call it. He's the same thing as Fi. His appearance and his own words verify this....heck...even his text box verifies it. They use the same one for Fi.

Right...
I actually have to agree that Ghirahim was toying with Link.
I don't see Ghirahim and Fi as the same thing, unless the goddess made the Ghirahim sword as well.

 

[DarkestLink]

Right...
I actually have to agree that Ghirahim was toying with Link.
I don't see Ghirahim and Fi as the same thing, unless the goddess made the Ghirahim sword as well.

Why does the goddess specifically have to make it for them to be the same thing?

 

[Igos du Ikana]

Why does the goddess specifically have to make it for them to be the same thing?

She doesn't, but it would make more sense if they weren't the same thing. I would say that Demise made Ghirahim, since he is the opposite of the Goddess. So, that would make Ghirahim a sword, just the opposite of Fi. I agree that Ghirahim is weapon though.

 

[Kirino]

Because he's a sword. He seemed completely dead/unconscious when Demise made the some form psychical.

Yes, but how do you know that his "human form" is recent? For all you know, he was always like that. For all you know, he was always able to change. There's absolutely no reason to assume that Demise only gave him a physical form other than a weapon recently. I'm almost positive that Ghirahim has always been like this.

I only recall seeing directive. Feel free to point out something that expresses loyalty over just a directive.

The way he laughs even when Demise kills him.

Here's the same scene, but longer. Take note of 2:10, 3:00, and 3:30

The Legend of Zelda : Skyward Sword - Demise Lives (SUPER SPOILER ALERT!) - YouTube

2:10: There he is...laughing happily. Watch as he bounces happily at his Master's revival. AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

3:00: He gets blasted...a look of sadness on his face...he even tries to fight a little....

3:30: He starts screaming in pain. His head is faced towards the sky and rather than making the same sound as before, he makes this sound URGH! URRRRAAARGGGHHH!!! AAAAAARRRRRGGHHH!

I see 3:30, and it really sounds and looks like he's laughing to me. Listen carefully. You can hear the HAHAHAHAHA at the end of his laugh.

He didn't even seem to know what it was. He just remarked it was a nice sword. Then again, how would he? It was in the sky the whole time.

1) He seemed unable to get past the door.

2) As far as he knew, Link had nothing to do with the mission.



He had nothing else to do. The door was sealed to him.



He couldn't get her. It was over.



Detour? His only hope was to wait for Zelda to come out, but he didn't know Impa was there and could teleport.

How do you know he couldn't get past the door? And yes, it was too late to reach Zelda, but he gave her more time to get to Eldin by wasting time and toying with Link. Ghirahim came chasing Zelda. It was obvious that Zelda had no intention of coming out. Besides, in the time he could have spent figuring out a way to get to or chasing Zelda, he battled you instead. He had other things to do, but he chose to toy with you.

Apparently.

Yeah. I'm pretty sure weapons don't breath.

Made of metal.

Maybe in his weapon form, but in his main form in which he uses for the whole game? No. His hair flows. Last time I chacked, metal doesn't flow that smoothly.

Made of skin.

His skin is made out of skin. That's my point. Weapons don't have skin.

Seeing how he licks blood and doesn't eat, I doubt he can.

Maybe he likes blood. I don't know why he liicks blood if he can't even taste it. You don't know that he doesn't eat. We never see anyone in Zelda eat, but they still eat. And maybe demons don't have to eat. We never see any SS enemies eat. You can't deny that Ghirahim has tons of physical human characteristics. Skin, hair, the ability to breath, and eyes, whereas Fi looks exactly like a robot in both her main and weapon forms.

 

[Cfrock]

Where do you get this idea that Ghirahim used to always be just a sword? That he never met Demise before? I can't recall a time when this was stated in game.

I'm not necessarily saying I agree with this view point but the idea that Ghirahim spent the majority of his time as a sword isn't completely ridiculous. While not confirmed or directly stated in-game, there is reason to believe this.

When Demise is revived, the very first thing he does (after admiring his physical form) is to turn Ghirahim into a sword. He doesn't even so much as say "You have served me well," or "Good Job, Ghirry." He doesn't even look at him at first, just raises his arm and starts pulling a sword from Ghirahim's body. It seems clear that Demise only views Ghirahim as a tool and an object (which could also be used to add to the notion that Ghirahim is a 'robot', along with his very metallic/digital sounding voice in his final form). I think it's safe to say that Demise only views Ghirahim as a weapon and since Ghirahim seems to take some genuine delight in his transformation it's not unreasonable to assume Ghirahim was a sword in the past too.

But how much time did he spend as a sword in the past? Well, Demise has Ghirahim become a sword for pretty much every moment he has his renewed form. Wouldn't it have made more practical sense to fight Link with Ghirahim still in a humanoid form? He's obviously powerful and has plenty of abilities he lacks as a sword. Demise seems to either ignore these obvious advantages or not see them as important. Having his sword seems to be the most important thing on Demise's mind, since retrieving it is the very first thing he does and if he makes such a point of having his sword just to fight one human (who, despite his accomplishments, Demise still views as weak and pathetic) then doesn't it make sense that he'd be sure to have it on hand when waging war against the Goddess? It makes sense that Demise would be armed as much as possible during that period, meaning Ghirahim may have been a sword the majority of that time.

It's also worth noting again, as DarkestLink mentioned this before, that when the sword comes out of Ghirahim's body, he goes completely unconscious. He stops laughing altogether and stops moving once the blade begins to leave him and it does indeed seem as if Ghirahim is dead. Fi was clearly still conscious and functioning while she was in the sword but this suggests that Ghirahim is not 'in' Demise's sword in the same way, but rather he literally is the sword. This would mean that if Ghirahim did indeed spend most of his time during the war against Hylia as a sword, then he would not have formed a relationship with Demise, or wouldn't have 'met' him, as DarkestLink put it.

Whether Fi and Ghirahim are the same is debatable but surely we must agree that they are similar. The same way Demise's sword is like an anti-Master Sword, Ghirahim is something of an anti-Fi. Zelda states that Hylia created Fi and then the Goddess Sword to help guide a chosen hero to ultimately defeat Demise. Following the logic of 'anti', it makes sense that Demise first created his sword and then Ghirahim. This would make sense if we assume Ghirahim spending the war as a sword to be true, since it would then mean Demise created Ghirahim as a 'backup plan' to enable his eventual return (which is the story of Skyward Sword).

Again, I'm not saying these things are true since they are fairly speculative but it does show that there is a reasonable and logical reason for believing the sword to be Ghirahim's true form and for believing that his humanoid form is somewhat recent.

I didn't see any loyalty. Just directive.

I only recall seeing directive. Feel free to point out something that expresses loyalty over just a directive.

It is through his blind obedience to his directive that Ghirahim shows loyalty to Demise. You yourself have pointed out that Ghirahim does not benefit from Demise's return (being turned into an inanimate object and all) so the only motivation he would have is that he has been ordered to bring Demise back. He must have some kind of deep loyalty to Demise in order to do this for no reward so I would argue that the mere fact that Ghirahim follows his directive shows his loyalty.

This can also strengthen the idea that Ghirahim has no free will, or at least very little free will. Even though Ghirahim does do some things on his own volition (most notably take the time out to toy with Link several times) all of his actions are still done to aid the goal of reviving Demise. His pursuit of Zelda is fairly clear in this regard, as are his actions at the end of the game, but even setting monsters on Link can be seen to serve his purpose since this stalls Link in his pursuit for Zelda. Ghirahim may not be actively trying to kill Link but by setting Scaldera and Koloktos on to him, he is certainly buying himself some time to search for Zelda uninhibited.

 

[Amazing Link]

I actually think that Ghirahim is ONE of the greatest enemies in Zelda. Not the greatest. I mean, we all know that Ganondorf:ganondorf: is the greatest enemy of them all! I mean, he's been in 8 out of sixteen games(don't comment on my math. I haven't played OoA, OoS, or tMC), while Ghirahim has only been in one(I can count! YAY!). Overall, Ganondorf:ganondorf: is a better enemy than Ghirahim.

 

[Scoby]

I hated Girahim, I also hated skywrad sword. Not fun game, controls were good tho. <3

 

[SuperSwell]

I think he is a good villian. He was certainly a persistant villian, but he was a little stupid. After Zelda and Impa fled after he got inside the Temple of Time, he didn't kill Link. He fled and said you will die next time. I personally think this was a soft move, and if I was him I would have killed him there. But he is certainly unique. No denying that.

 

[videogamenerd10]

Personally I really like Ghirahim, he's probably my favorite villain in all the Zelda games (sorry Ganondorf and Majora). He always appears a bit twisted and random but that's what makes him so cool. You'll never know what this guy is thinking or what he will do next.

 

[surferguy7]

I feel like I've posted in this topic already, but if I haven't, that surprises me since Ghirahim is my one true love.

A few things I'd like to say:

@Topic Title - Obviously
Pawn =/= Bad Villain
Ghirahim is sexy, this cannot be refuted

 

[Batman]

Best Zelda villain? No. He's cool, but I've seen better.