Game Thread The Clone Saga: A Spider-Man Mafia 3

[Duskyblue]

I would guess that tevish claiming he knows who the real spiderman and outing them would not result in the spidermen definitively ascertaining their own clone status. Even a spiderman knowing that tevish knows whether they are a clone or not doesn't tell them whether they are a clone or not, regardless of what tevish claims. They'd need some way to verify whether or not tevish was telling the truth on top of that.

Well, I guess. Depends on how certain they must be. But if they got his role PM, they would know whether it works as he said,which might be enough.

 

[Duskyblue]

If the Spiders are forming a cult, then they've formed a cult regardless of whether or not Tevish tells us anything. Each Spider who tracked Tavish can individually deduce whether they're the real Spider-Man on the basis of receiving or not receiving a Discord. Unless I misunderstood.

I think the deeper concern is whether or not protection of

Even if it worked that way, it would only apply to those who tracked him, while him revealing it would give the information to all of them.

 

[Morbid Minish]

Too many votes on the Jackal is bad for everyone. The effects make him harder to kill and makes him more of a threat to town.

 

[Skystone]

Even if it worked that way, it would only apply to those who tracked him, while him revealing it would give the information to all of them.

That's true. At the very least, the Spiders who didn't participate can't know.

So maybe it's best if Tevish says nothing for now?

 

[Tevish Szat]

What up, folks! It may have been a few hours and many pages, but I'm here to report what I know.

A lot of folks tracked me last night. That's good! My role is basically out in the wild now, so anyone who wants to step up can confirm what I say, and since I get to know who tracks me, I can confirm that they were one of the ones, if that were to be in question.

ExLight is not a threat to the town

I think we all suspected that, and that was why I tracked him, in fact. But since I cop whoever I track (with the result being Threat to the Town or Not), it's good to have that confirmed, I feel, especially given Ex's claim of a low threshold.

I will neither confirm nor deny whether or not I have found the Real Spider-Man unless I have found the Real Spider-Man AND the Real Spider-Man tells or permits me to go public.

The reasons for this are basically what Dusky has just laid out: Disambiguating the True Spider-Man could cause some trouble. Now, any clone that tracked me last night knows whether or not they're the one based on whether or not they got put in a nifty discord with me, but let's even look beyond the clones: Plenty of characters in this game could have a deep interest in the True Spider Man, and many of those might be unsavory. I don't feel like narrowing down the potential target list for a bad actor looking for True Spidey to just the folks who know my Role PM. If I make contact with True Spider Man, which I may or may not already have done, and hear otherwise from True Spider Man, I'll say more on that regard.

Right now, based on what has been said today, it is my firm belief that we should strongly consider killing The Jackal until he stays dead.

Especially with our previous lynch rising from the grave combined with the details that Jackal may be responsible, it seems likely that he's making a power-play to take over. I refer to my misgivings yesterday: if he wanted to be a goodie, why not dump it all now? It seems to me like Jackal may be a wild-card threat, something not exactly Maf but not exactly 3rd-party either. Minish says that Jackal is "Harder to kill if we kill him now". Well, we've got a lot of votes to throw around. He may have an extra life. If he survives our attempt on his life right now we can always kill him later. If we wait, it may be too late.

VOTE: SMS In part because I want to see if my vote weighting kicks in.

 

[Duskyblue]

You know what.... reading the Clones rules again, depending on the exact wording of his role Pm, his trigger might depend and what their current belief was. In that case he could end up with several chats.

 

[Duskyblue]

Oh, missed Tevish's post I take it that did NOT happen.

 

[Morbid Minish]

Question to everyone. Why couldn't I just easily out the Jackal after he cured me if I just relied on him?

 

[Ragnarokio]

Question to everyone. Why couldn't I just easily out the Jackal after he cured me if I just relied on him?

because you still rely on him, for one reason or another, is the obvious answer. Its also possible you're acting in the interest of the town but I'm not really convinced you're town aligned. I can't even remember if you claimed that you were or not.

I think you're probably telling the truth (although by your own admission not the whole truth) but I think that PK is also probably telling the truth. One of you is probably misinformed but its also possible for both interpretations of SMS' role to be largely correct, seeing as we've only been given a smattering of details. I guess the fundamental contradiction is that PK claims that SMS claims that he will get stronger the longer the game goes on, whereas you claim that he'll get weaker as the game goes on.

Both claims in combination with SMS' claims (which i'm not as sold on as yours and PK's) seem to paint a singular picture wherein the jackal is at struggle with himself and his role changes depending on what happens to him. It sounds like there could be a minigame involving him becoming more evil, which would be the result of a point system where different actions result in additional "evil" points being applied. Being voted then might make him more evil. It sounds like outside or possibly including the tally, that dying will result in him resurrecting and becoming a lot more evil. Maybe you claiming certain things also affects the tally. Becoming more evil might then make him more powerful, resulting in everything he allegedly claimed to PK. This minigame could also interface with his ambiguous stated wincon of having whoever-it-was fall in love with him. Although I assume zinger would give him multiple pathways to that goal, or else change his wincon in the event that that goal becomes impossible.

This is all speculation mind you.

If SMS being lynched would uniformly result in SMS winning the game, then i think he would have done that. It souds like he probably has a personal preference for an alternative wincon, one which might be more difficult, but I still choose not to believe that the jackal isn't an existence where trying to kill him just results in you losing the game. I believe that if he's not currently a threat to town there's a real probability he will become one, and that to that end eliminating him is a good idea, especially if its possible that neglecting him will result in our loss, which is something I can believe.

 

[Ragnarokio]

I do think we should wait to hear from both SMS and rubik before moving forward in any way though. SMS seems to be the only person with access to both chatrooms in question and so his claim will be important. Most importantly, he can either accuse PK of lying or confirm that PK is telling the truth (and possibly provide additional context).

Rubik also stands to significantly change the gamestate whenever he gets around to dropping his info-bomb.

 

[Asfinyti]

i can get behind rag here

 

[Morbid Minish]

because you still rely on him, for one reason or another, is the obvious answer. Its also possible you're acting in the interest of the town but I'm not really convinced you're town aligned. I can't even remember if you claimed that you were or not.

I am town. One of my passive abilities (the one that I said harms spider aligned people if they lynch me) is due to the guilt they feel. If that convinces you any more of my towniness.

 

[Aaarrrgh]

I did track Tevish, and did get to see his PM. Our at least a PM. It would be good if someone could confirm Tevish's alignment in a way which doesn't really on his own ability, because this is after all a bastard game. There is a possibility, however small, that the PM which gets shared with people is not his actual role. However, this is far more important:

My Role is Scrier. My win con is to successfully target Judas Traveler with a specific one of my abilities and my motivation is to get him to invite me to his host.

Paranoid King just claimed that there is a cult in the game, and that their motivation is to join the cult. We absolutely need to Lynch them for confirmation and then find Judas Traveller as soon as possible. This is possibly more important than stopping the mafia (although it seems like the Jackal's resurrection ability also is cult-like, so perhaps not).

I don't want to risk triggering the lynch too soon, and I don't know what PK's threshold is, but once the Bugle and the first vote count have dropped, I am planning to vote for Paranoid King.

 

[Ragnarokio]

Paranoid King just claimed that there is a cult in the game, and that their motivation is to join the cult. We absolutely need to Lynch them for confirmation and then find Judas Traveller as soon as possible.

I didn't initially read their claim this way but i can see how you'd come to that conclusion. I still think that given what they claimed, if they're telling the truth then the jackal is probably a more imminent threat than judas traveler, and in either case we should probably be lynching either ahead of Paranoid King. If he's lying and we lynch him, we gain little, but if he's telling the truth and we lynch him, we've wasted a day's lynch when there are two threats steadily growing in strength. His death also doesn't necessarily confirm that he's telling the truth.

 

[Skystone]

One problem with the present game state is the fact that we appear to have more information than we actually do. Both Minish and PK were fed by SMS, with SMS presuming their respective and prospective alignments. Naturally, the kind and quality of the information, as well as the implication behind that information, differs according to each case.

The crucial aspect is whether or not we are willing to equate SMS's intrinsic need to lie to protect himself with an actual dual motivation. Which is to say -- if you, as mafia, start the game with a known potential mole in your ranks, are you not in any case required to play in such a way as to minimize the threat? Given that Minish is believably intrinsic to The Jackal's character and motivation, it is comprehensible that the Jackal might re-tool his role to 'suit' Minish's presumed alignment. But at the same time, if the Jackal is meaningfully motivated to protect Minish, or at least not to kill her, then there ought to be some component of his role that explains this careful behavior.

In other words, there ought to be some disjoint. Either they are both dual win condition (potentially with separate motivations for their respective town-scum possibilities), or The Jackal is mafia/dual and Minish is town. It is technically possible that the Jackal is town but trying to conceal his 'true' nature from the mafia side, but this doesn't adequately motivate his tension with Gwen. On the other hand, if the Jackal is strictly mafia, then either he needs to convince Gwen that he is 'good' despite Gwen's own town alignment, or he needs to convince her to turn to the dark side/fall/etc, but again we encounter the 'why?' problem of mafia essentially getting the job done itself. So either the Jackal has some arbitrary weakness of needing to fool one particular actual human in order to win (because otherwise 'being mafia' almost motivates him to jettison his Gwen baggage), or something complex is going on.

In short, for those who want less hedging: SMS probably does have alternate wincons. We must remember that he is compelled, in the context of the mafia chat, to act like mafia, and that the information he provides to the mafia members (e.g. PK) must be consistent with the potential of him being mafia. Likewise, in his discussions with Minish, he must make himself redeemable (and, to some at least minor extent, likely is).