What Annoyed You Today?

[TheGreatCthulhu]

I don't really know instruments or music, but people do learn in different ways. So saying that one way is the correct way to do it isn't always true. Like with your math example, I have anxiety when it comes to math (because I possibly have the number equivalent of dyslexia), and sometimes having the answer actually does help me learn easier. Because then I have less anxiety, and can work backwards to see the process more clearly. Just because stuff works one way for some people doesn't mean it works that way for everyone.

The problem with learning things visually is that it gets you thinking with your eyes, and in music, your eyes are the biggest liars in multiple ways.

First, if the instrument is tuned differently than normal, like an open tuning, then shapes aren't going to work anymore, even if your fingers are in the "right spot" because now the instrument isn't tuned like normal, but to a chord, so if you learned a scale shape, and nothing else about it, it's not going to help in this situation.

Second, listening with your eyes ignores a key aspect all musicians rely on, ear training. By SOUND I should be able to identify what a minor scale sounds like, a dominant 7th chord, or what have you. Ear training is super important, especially when it's used to train what certain intervals, chords, and cadences sound like, so when you go to write music, you can recall that sound, regardless of key or tuning.

Third, when choosing what equipment sounds better when our eyes are running the game, people tend to choose famous brands, regardless of what their ears told them they preferred. The explanation is simple, they listened with their eyes, not their ears. So setting up a sound that's unique to you becomes problematic when you're not really listening to what you like about a particular piece of equipment.

This is why I don't like telling people where to put their fingers, because on a guitar, one note can be played in multiple places, notes can be arranged how you so choose, and, when the tuning changes, the shapes you learned are no longer useful.

For music, listening with your eyes is unhelpful, so I try to get people to think with their ears, not their eyes, because do you watch music with your eyes? No, you listen to it with your ears.

 

[Morbid Minish]

The problem with learning things visually is that it gets you thinking with your eyes, and in music, your eyes are the biggest liars in multiple ways.

First, if the instrument is tuned differently than normal, like an open tuning, then shapes aren't going to work anymore, even if your fingers are in the "right spot" because now the instrument isn't tuned like normal, but to a chord, so if you learned a scale shape, and nothing else about it, it's not going to help in this situation.

Second, listening with your eyes ignores a key aspect all musicians rely on, ear training. By SOUND I should be able to identify what a minor scale sounds like, a dominant 7th chord, or what have you. Ear training is super important, especially when it's used to train what certain intervals, chords, and cadences sound like, so when you go to write music, you can recall that sound, regardless of key or tuning.

Third, when choosing what equipment sounds better when our eyes are running the game, people tend to choose famous brands, regardless of what their ears told them they preferred. The explanation is simple, they listened with their eyes, not their ears. So setting up a sound that's unique to you becomes problematic when you're not really listening to what you like about a particular piece of equipment.

This is why I don't like telling people where to put their fingers, because on a guitar, one note can be played in multiple places, notes can be arranged how you so choose, and, when the tuning changes, the shapes you learned are no longer useful.

For music, listening with your eyes is unhelpful, so I try to get people to think with their ears, not their eyes, because do you watch music with your eyes? No, you listen to it with your ears.

You don't read music with your ears though. And there are deaf musicians as well. So I think saying that you have to only rely on listening to things ignores that there are other ways to do things. You can also start out by learning smaller things like finger placement and then move onto larger things. It seems like you jumped ahead in what the guy was wanting to learn/practice because you mention ear training and writing music, when the guy said he just came from piano to guitar and doesn't know the notes on the fretboard. So he likely isn't even thinking about trying to identify scales by sound or composing his own music yet.

 

[TheGreatCthulhu]

You don't read music with your ears though. And there are deaf musicians as well. So I think saying that you have to only rely on listening to things ignores that there are other ways to do things. You can also start out by learning smaller things like finger placement and then move onto larger things. It seems like you jumped ahead in what the guy was wanting to learn/practice because you mention ear training and writing music, when the guy said he just came from piano to guitar and doesn't know the notes on the fretboard. So he likely isn't even thinking about trying to identify scales by sound or composing his own music yet.

He had all of the knowledge, already, but was refusing to apply it.

When he revealed he didn't know the notes on the fretboard, that's when I suggested that was what he needed to learn.

If you already know how to make a major or minor scale, then scale diagrams aren't really helpful anymore.

He wanted a shortcut, and I don't believe in shortcuts, because I know from experience that they lead to confusion later on.

It's essentially giving him the answer, when the whole point is to train your ears into the sound of what's going on.

I know from first hand experience teaching music that giving someone scale shapes leads to two questions that students always ask:

• How can I write music with this?
• How is this applicable?

Those questions are, however, answered when you learn how the scales are constructed, and you listen in to their sound.

After all, what good does it do when I say Mixolydian is this scale shape?

The only information being conveyed in these diagrams are where the root notes are, and where to put your fingers, that's it.

Now you should see the problem. How is this applicable to actually using Mixolydian to create music? Hardly anybody just runs scales up and down in real music.

Well, if I teach you the intervals that make it:

1 2 3 4 5 6 b7.

That should already tell you that Mixolydian is essentially a major scale with a flattened seventh degree, which if you trained your ears, gives you an idea already of what it sounds like. But, what if you needed more guidance?

What does Mixolydian sound like when you use it to create music?

It's the sounds of Elton John and Billy Joel and BB King.

That's much more useful than a scale diagram. You have the intervals that make it, which never change, regardless of key, and I've given you three examples of great musicians and songwriters that frequently feature Mixolydian in their music, training you in to what it sounds like in real music.

Understand, that running scales up and down and scale shapes and diagrams are largely more academic than it is practical for playing and writing music, which is the whole reason one picks up an instrument in the first place. They don't care what Mixolydian is, they just want to play music.

So in that spirit, as someone that has 23 years experience of playing, writing, and teaching music, who this is his job, when someone needs to learn a musical concept, I always try to tie it in with something practical, something that you can apply right away and make music with it.

That's the whole point. So when I know that scale diagrams do lead to raised eyebrows and confusion in students, because no other information besides where to place your fingers is given, then I find it actually easier for them to learn about them in a way that gets them thinking musically, ie, with their ears, and not their eyes.

However, putting this all off to the side, because it's moot. The guy had all this knowledge, he just didn't want to apply any of it.

 

[Morbid Minish]

He had all of the knowledge, already, but was refusing to apply it.

When he revealed he didn't know the notes on the fretboard, that's when I suggested that was what he needed to learn.

If you already know how to make a major or minor scale, then scale diagrams aren't really helpful anymore.

He wanted a shortcut, and I don't believe in shortcuts, because I know from experience that they lead to confusion later on.

It's essentially giving him the answer, when the whole point is to train your ears into the sound of what's going on.

I know from first hand experience teaching music that giving someone scale shapes leads to two questions that students always ask:

• How can I write music with this?
• How is this applicable?

Those questions are, however, answered when you learn how the scales are constructed, and you listen in to their sound.

After all, what good does it do when I say Mixolydian is this scale shape?

The only information being conveyed in these diagrams are where the root notes are, and where to put your fingers, that's it.

Now you should see the problem. How is this applicable to actually using Mixolydian to create music? Hardly anybody just runs scales up and down in real music.

Well, if I teach you the intervals that make it:

1 2 3 4 5 6 b7.

That should already tell you that Mixolydian is essentially a major scale with a flattened seventh degree, which if you trained your ears, gives you an idea already of what it sounds like. But, what if you needed more guidance?

What does Mixolydian sound like when you use it to create music?

It's the sounds of Elton John and Billy Joel and BB King.

That's much more useful than a scale diagram. You have the intervals that make it, which never change, regardless of key, and I've given you three examples of great musicians and songwriters that frequently feature Mixolydian in their music, training you in to what it sounds like in real music.

Understand, that running scales up and down and scale shapes and diagrams are largely more academic than it is practical for playing and writing music, which is the whole reason one picks up an instrument in the first place. They don't care what Mixolydian is, they just want to play music.

So in that spirit, as someone that has 23 years experience of playing, writing, and teaching music, who this is his job, when someone needs to learn a musical concept, I always try to tie it in with something practical, something that you can apply right away and make music with it.

That's the whole point. So when I know that scale diagrams do lead to raised eyebrows and confusion in students, because no other information besides where to place your fingers is given, then I find it actually easier for them to learn about them in a way that gets them thinking musically, ie, with their ears, and not their eyes.

That's the thing though, just because you see it as a shortcut and don't believe in shortcuts doesn't mean that everyone sees it that way. Like I said, you can sometimes be given an answer and then use that to work backwards and better understand the process than if you started with the question and tried to figure out the answer yourself. People learn in different ways, and that applies to pretty much any subject.

Like with your post, I don't see the problem because like I said, I don't know music or instruments. And you teaching the intervals that make it made less sense to me than the diagram and doesn't tell me what it sounds like because I have no clue what any of that means. Granted, the guy in the original post isn't as musically challenged as I am and seems to have some knowledge already, but he very well could learn from the diagram method better than you listing intervals.

Just because you first learn something like the placement of your fingers, doesn't mean you can't also expand upon that and learn how it sounds and whatnot. For some people knowing the method behind things helps, so the academic side shouldn't just be brushed off like it's not important, because it very much is. You can combine academic information and hands on learning. If I wanted to try to learn music, telling me musicians that use mixolydian in their music would mean nothing to me, because I am awful at recognizing sounds and whatnot. It would be more helpful for me to learn the academic stuff and understand the why and then work on trying to better differentiate different sounds and learn to understand things by ear.

 

[TheGreatCthulhu]

That's the thing though, just because you see it as a shortcut and don't believe in shortcuts doesn't mean that everyone sees it that way. Like I said, you can sometimes be given an answer and then use that to work backwards and better understand the process than if you started with the question and tried to figure out the answer yourself. People learn in different ways, and that applies to pretty much any subject.

Like with your post, I don't see the problem because like I said, I don't know music or instruments. And you teaching the intervals that make it made less sense to me than the diagram and doesn't tell me what it sounds like because I have no clue what any of that means. Granted, the guy in the original post isn't as musically challenged as I am and seems to have some knowledge already, but he very well could learn from the diagram method better than you listing intervals.

Just because you first learn something like the placement of your fingers, doesn't mean you can't also expand upon that and learn how it sounds and whatnot. For some people knowing the method behind things helps, so the academic side shouldn't just be brushed off like it's not important, because it very much is. You can combine academic information and hands on learning. If I wanted to try to learn music, telling me musicians that use mixolydian in their music would mean nothing to me, because I am awful at recognizing sounds and whatnot. It would be more helpful for me to learn the academic stuff and understand the why and then work on trying to better differentiate different sounds and learn to understand things by ear.

Again, the guy KNEW ALL OF THIS.

He just didn't want to apply any of the knowledge he had. If you want me to be blunt about it, he was being lazy. Lazy isn't an excuse, because you look for shortcuts, and I can tell you that shortcuts lead to bad habits in technique, and it ignores ear training, something musicians rely on.

Why allow him to go down that path, where he'd have to unlearn bad habits and relearn good habits, and he'd still have more questions about what he's learning anyways, speaking from experience?

Again, you're not a musician, so this is hard to convey, man, but just merely mechanically showing someone where to put their fingers isn't as helpful as the REST of the knowledge that should come alongside it.

You seem to be thinking that I think that scale diagrams are completely useless. Nowhere did I state such a thing. All I said is they're unhelpful, because...

They're incomplete.

They don't give all of the information, and because it's actually mechanically easy to get something under your fingers, it's something anyone can learn on their own time.

But the problem with that approach, and what I was cautioning against, is that this isn't framing musical concepts properly. Not all the information is conveyed, namely, the most crucial information which is harmonic information, which is, what something sounds like, what chords can be played, and so on.

For example, let's take Mixolydian, the intervals may be confusing, but if we harmonize it, we get this:

1 3 5 b7.

The exact intervals to create a dominant 7th chord, which are those funky sounding major chords you hear in all Beatles tunes.

Trying to make sense of this visually, what my basic point is, is that it really isn't conveying what's actually important, and that's what it sounds like.

Why do you think I tied all musical concepts I gave with actual musical examples? That's what's really important, and while intervals are confusing at first, when you make sense of them, you can ingrain their sound so you can recall upon it regardless of the key.

 

[TheGreatCthulhu]

That's the thing though, just because you see it as a shortcut and don't believe in shortcuts doesn't mean that everyone sees it that way. Like I said, you can sometimes be given an answer and then use that to work backwards and better understand the process than if you started with the question and tried to figure out the answer yourself. People learn in different ways, and that applies to pretty much any subject.

Like with your post, I don't see the problem because like I said, I don't know music or instruments. And you teaching the intervals that make it made less sense to me than the diagram and doesn't tell me what it sounds like because I have no clue what any of that means. Granted, the guy in the original post isn't as musically challenged as I am and seems to have some knowledge already, but he very well could learn from the diagram method better than you listing intervals.

Just because you first learn something like the placement of your fingers, doesn't mean you can't also expand upon that and learn how it sounds and whatnot. For some people knowing the method behind things helps, so the academic side shouldn't just be brushed off like it's not important, because it very much is. You can combine academic information and hands on learning. If I wanted to try to learn music, telling me musicians that use mixolydian in their music would mean nothing to me, because I am awful at recognizing sounds and whatnot. It would be more helpful for me to learn the academic stuff and understand the why and then work on trying to better differentiate different sounds and learn to understand things by ear.

Also, I really hope this debate doesn't lead to bad feelings. I truly do believe music is for everyone, and this is just a subject I'm super passionate about.

I do get what you're saying, but all I was saying was that there's other considerations when talking music that have to be taken into account.

But the guy was ignoring those, which led to my annoyance of him calling me annoying, because what he needed wasn't what he wanted.

 

[The Dashing Darknut]

I got annoyed at myself for being sensitive at not putting in all of my effort with unpacking

It annoys me that I can’t just say “I should do better next time, I should put in my full effort and help with unpacking, stop being lazy”

I really don’t like that I can’t just take responsibility sometimes and I can’t just do what I’m told, I hope I can improve because it’s really a bad habit of mine, and I’m just really annoyed at myself, I had no one else to blame but me.

 

[Morbid Minish]

Also, I really hope this debate doesn't lead to bad feelings. I truly do believe music is for everyone, and this is just a subject I'm super passionate about.

I do get what you're saying, but all I was saying was that there's other considerations when talking music that have to be taken into account.

But the guy was ignoring those, which led to my annoyance of him calling me annoying, because what he needed wasn't what he wanted.

You're obviously super knowledgeable and passionate about music. I don't think there's a doubt about that. I just get a bit defensive when it comes to learning things, because people are all different and learn in different ways. And that's a major issue with the education system, because it tends to lean into the same styles for everyone.

You may see shortcuts as lazy and enabling future bad habits, but that's not necessarily true. I was diagnosed with ADHD a bit ago, and have a lot of trouble focusing on things especially for long amounts of times (unless it's something I'm already super into and then I can lose a few hours to it). Shortcuts can help me with getting into things instead of putting them off because I know I'll lose focus on them. If it's something new I'm learning then shortcuts can be small bursts that just give me enough info to grasp something while I can focus on it, and then once I build enough interest and have a moment of more focus I can go back and fill in the gaps. So it's not always lazy, people can have various reasons for wanting to know a certain piece of knowledge that might not make sense to everyone but does to them.


I'm not questioning your music knowledge since I of all people have no place to do that. Lol. I just wanted to point out that while his question may have seemed like the wrong thing to ask to you, he could have reason for asking it due to his learning style.

 

[Morbid Minish]

I got annoyed at myself for being sensitive at not putting in all of my effort with unpacking

It annoys me that I can’t just say “I should do better next time, I should put in my full effort and help with unpacking, stop being lazy”

I really don’t like that I can’t just take responsibility sometimes and I can’t just do what I’m told, I hope I can improve because it’s really a bad habit of mine, and I’m just really annoyed at myself, I had no one else to blame but me.

You don't have to answer if you don't want to, but was there a reason you didn't help with the unpacking? You clearly seem like you wanted/intended to.

 

[The Dashing Darknut]

You don't have to answer if you don't want to, but was there a reason you didn't help with the unpacking? You clearly seem like you wanted/intended to.

Well I carried a good some stuff but then decided not to help anymore.

I don’t know, I guess I just got tired and lazy but that’s not an excuse to help with the remaining things that need to be unpacked

And now I just feel annoyed at myself for being lazy

It’s like with the homework I had in 6th grade (fortunately that habit got a lot better now in 7th). Why didn’t I just get the homework over with, find out how to answer it/learn how to do it, and get done with it so I can do other things?

 

[Mikey the Gengar]

Basically:
Tabs aren't the "answer" like the way you want to have the answer in a hypothetical math problem

Guitar tabs only help you learn to play those tabs by rote
It would be like learning multiplication tables without ever understanding what multiplication was

 

[The Dashing Darknut]

It's like learning math, why would a math teacher just give you the answer? That's not doing math.

As someone who was like this in the 6th grade, I can say, yeah, it’s not doing math and it’s not a good mentality, as someone now going into 8th grade, but then again he may have ADHD like I did or a low attention span, so

 

[Morbid Minish]

Well I carried a good some stuff but then decided not to help anymore.

I don’t know, I guess I just got tired and lazy but that’s not an excuse to help with the remaining things that need to be unpacked

And now I just feel annoyed at myself for being lazy

It’s like with the homework I had in 6th grade (fortunately that habit got a lot better now in 7th). Why didn’t I just get the homework over with, find out how to answer it/learn how to do it, and get done with it so I can do other things?

I asked, and it's interesting timing that you mentioned you have ADHD as well, because there's something called executive dysfunction. ADHD is basically a bunch of symptoms of executive dysfunction, but one of those is trouble starting tasks even when you keep telling yourself to. I know I personally really struggle with this because it doesn't just effect stuff like chores that I want to get over with, but things that I like as well. There are a lot of times where I will spend the day telling myself that I should play a video game, but I just can't make myself actually do it and the day ends and I never play it.

So I definitely understand the struggle of telling yourself that you should do something and then not doing it and feeling like you let yourself down. But it's not necessarily because you're lazy. A lazy person usually doesn't dwell over the fact that they didn't do it, they're content just not having done it at all and it being over with.

Basically:
Tabs aren't the "answer" like the way you want to have the answer in a hypothetical math problem

Guitar tabs only help you learn to play those tabs by rote
It would be like learning multiplication tables without ever understanding what multiplication was

But the thing is, in my elementary school we basically did learn multiplication tables without really understanding what multiplication was. On a more indepth scale at least. And I feel like that's the way a lot of math is learned. You are basically taught basic memorization when you're young, and as you get older you work backwards and understand in more depth how it all works together.

 

[Mikey the Gengar]

That might be a your school problem...

Math might not be a great metaphor to explain it then

Bottom line is that tabs are bad for learning "how to make music" and don't really make sense to be used as a metric for progress either
It's not really a "some people learn music better some ways" thing. It's just about what you want to get out of playing an instrument

 

[TheGreatCthulhu]

That might be a your school problem...

Math might not be a great metaphor to explain it then

Bottom line is that tabs are bad for learning "how to make music" and don't really make sense to be used as a metric for progress either
It's not really a "some people learn music better some ways" thing. It's just about what you want to get out of playing an instrument

This is precisely what I was getting at.

Anyone can use tabs and a scale diagram and play by rote. In fact, if you understand how to read tabs and diagrams, it's actually really easy to learn a few things this way. But when the student inevitably moves beyond that, the question always rises, "How do I use this to make music?"

It's a fundamental failure of learning how to play by your eyes, because all one did was learn by rote without learning what's actually important.

It really isn't a "people learn things differently" thing here. No matter what, people pick up an instrument to make and play music, and if I didn't give you crucial information about a musical concept so you can hear it in your favorite music, or use it to make your own music, then I failed as a music teacher.

My goals aren't to get you to play things by rote, I'd rather someone have a better understanding, hearing what something sounds like, so they can then use it to play and make music with it.

Diagrams and tabs have their place, but they only show you where to put your fingers. The actual info, that is, the musical context is missing, and that's the important thing.