Spoiler The Temple of Time and the Sacred Grove: Location, Location, Location.

[SNOlink]

I know. When me and my brother first got there, we were both like "Huh? What?" Well, anyways the Temple of Time in the desert was the one for the past civilization that lived there. In Skyward Sword, it's pretty much in ruins. The Sealed Temple becomes the Temple of Time for the other games. It makes sense because the

SPOILER

The Master Sword is now in that temple. So it would still be in there until the next game on the timeline which would supposedly be Ocarina of Time.

 

[Kupsacker]

I'm pretty sure that was a different temple of time. because, that game is practically in pre-historic times, and then the "sealed temple" becomes the temple of time of the other games, as that region it's in would make sense as the temple of time's location in the other games. other things make sense too, like the master sword's resting place and time travelling happening within the building.

 

[AwesomeLink86]

The Next chronological occurrence of the Master Sword is the Ocarina of Time. In it, Link finds the Master Sword located in the Temple of Time, which is located inside Castle Town. At the end of the game Link places the Sword back where he found the blade. Now OoT did not separate its version of Hyrule into provinces, but if we look at the map from Twilight Princess, we know that most of Hyrule Field, Hyrule Castle, and Castle Town are all located in the Lanayru Province. Based off that, I can conclude the Master Sword is now in the Lanayru Province.

Now this is where things start to get confusing. Skyward Sword has the Master Sword in the Sealed Temple which is located in The Faron Province. The next time we see it is in Ocarina of Time, where its being housed in the Temple of Time... but now its in the Lanayru Province. Now the Final time we see it in this timeline is in Twilight Princess, where we find it in the Sacred Grove in the Faron Province. What the Hell Nintendo.

I believe it's fairly obvious the location of landmarks (not considering the provinces for a moment) have been retconned. Lake Hylia goes from the South East (ALttP) to the South West (OoT and TP), The Lost Woods goes from the North (ALttP) to the East (OoT). Zora's River/Waterfall and Death Mountain are also moved between the games. Chances are they'll be moved again. Now when the provinces are introduced it's hard to move a landmark COMPLETELY out of a province unless you move the borders of the province. But one thing that can change (and as we have seen) is buildings/towns. Whose to say that the castle in OoT is the same as the castle in TP? Just because they are in a relatively similar position doesn't mean anything. Since the provinces aren't established in OoT it's hard to pinpoint exactly which province certain places are in. For all we know the castle could have moved from the Faron province (OoT) to the Lanayru province (TP) as a completely diferent castle. Since time has passes since OoT in TP, a forest could have grown over the ruins of the "old" castle town and thus not changing the location of the ToT between the two games. It's a stretch but it's entirely possible.

But either way, locations are retconned throughout each game so going by one map is not enough IMO. You have to use your imagination to fill in the blank.

Obviously there will be a big difference is distances due to the sizes of the maps in each game but here is a side by side image showing each map from SS, OoT & TP.

I think in relation to OoT and TP the landmass has obviously been expanded. The map in OoT comprises of the area ringed in blue.

Not only does the location of the MS change but the surrounding landmarks etc, Lake Hylia and Death Mountain being the obvious two.

To see the image full-size go to http://i554.photobucket.com/albums/jj413/hylianslast/SS-mapcopy-2.jpg

It needs tidying up and editing, I'll see if I can create a better example later.

But even in the map between OoT and TP the location of Zora's Domain has changed. It's now North of the castle rather than to the East. Also don't forget the ALttP map. The forest (which holds the sacred grove where the MS sleeps is to the North West next to Death Mountain. You're not going to be able to get the maps to fit no matter how you look at it. I like the most recent map (SS) as the most official but it also is probably going to change in a future game.

 

[Seth]

You guys are taking the geography way to seriously. Nothing is consistent with the geography between the games. At all. No retconning or anything like that, just the developers probably don't put that much thought in it. Hasn't there been official quotes even saying that geography should be more or less ignored when it comes to tying the games together and a timeline?

Heck for all we know erosion, volcanic eruptions and other natural process speed up geographical change more rapidly in Zelda's world then our own.

 

[johnwolf]

Obviously there will be a big difference is distances due to the sizes of the maps in each game but here is a side by side image showing each map from SS, OoT & TP.

I think in relation to OoT and TP the landmass has obviously been expanded. The map in OoT comprises of the area ringed in blue.

Not only does the location of the MS change but the surrounding landmarks etc, Lake Hylia and Death Mountain being the obvious two.

To see the image full-size go to http://i554.photobucket.com/albums/jj413/hylianslast/SS-mapcopy-2.jpg

It needs tidying up and editing, I'll see if I can create a better example later.

Dude OoT map almost perfictly FITS with the SS map if you move the castle town to the location of the MS on the SS map. there's a few wierd out of place things but i think it makes the most sence. after all land can change over 1000 years. If you place the castle RIGHT at the edge of the eldin and lanayru we can asume that the castle moved. Here's where TP gets confusing though, GANON. he was sent in to TR after CL ratted him out. and it take hundreds of years for trees to reclaim the temple (which is the Sealed temple from SS btw) and turn it into ruins. other than that we can see that the castle is realy the only thing that changes and it makes sence that the sword stayed where it rests in every game that uses it. thanks for the maps dude it was made clearer now. at least for me.

 

[seahawk1]

I'm just surprised this is a forum and not and article. BTW, AWSOME theory

 

[The-Last-Hylian]

This thread has turned out to be quite interesting.

Please don't get me wrong when I'm saying that the maps should overlay perfectly, I don't believe that there will be a point when it will ever be that 'clean'.
Yes in between some of the games there have been hundreds if not thousands of years in between so the topography & geography of the games will change naturally.

And as we have already said, places like Death Mountain, Zoras Domain and Lake Hylia have altered location.

 

[johnwolf]

This thread has turned out to be quite interesting.

Please don't get me wrong when I'm saying that the maps should overlay perfectly, I don't believe that there will be a point when it will ever be that 'clean'.
Yes in between some of the games there have been hundreds if not thousands of years in between so the topography & geography of the games will change naturally.

And as we have already said, places like Death Mountain, Zoras Domain and Lake Hylia have altered location.

Death Mountain hasn't moved if you pay close enuff attention. Lake Hylia in OoT dosn't show up in SS because it isn't on the SS map, it's farther south. The Zora's Damain in OoT is actually Lake Floria from SS. the map almost perfectly lines up. In TP, Hyrule Castle is farther north so the Geography is much different, the Zoras moved farther north (most likly to keep contact and trade with hyrulians) and Lake Hylia is not the OoT Lake Hylia. Regardless Death Mountain hasn't moved at all sence mountains don't have an...you know... abillity to move. If anything this is more like "Where did Hyrule castle moved to" thread. what we need to do is figure out where exactly Hyrule Castle moved and we'll figure out WHY the sword is it's location. LttP is discluded from this because Zelda had the sword and moved it. that's why it's in a weird location in LttP. but i have a good idea where the castle is located there.

 

[felipe970421]

I'm going to introduce a new element to this, THE LOST WOODS, just by the OoT map you can say they make no sense at all, look at this:

Notice the entry point (the bridge between the field and the woods) appears two times in two different locations, it makes no sense! Now note something funny about the forest meadow in this image


YAY OVERLAPING

This thing is funny, I say that nothing related to the lost woods can be taken as the maps say, the lost woods aren't a normal wood, it's a dimension shifting wood, with warping capabilities, think this, the woods can take you from zora's domain to goron city, any path may take you to kokiri forest, it can take you to effin' Termina, the thing is these woods are just downright imposible to cartograph, notice that the in game OoT map just says "lost woods" and puts some trees and random holes in it, that's the best you can do with it, if you are right next to goron city and walk a few steps you sudenly are next to zora domain, and still you are a few steps away from kokiri forest, even the rose of winds is screwed in here, how can you tell if the meadow starts northwest and saria is southeast? How can you know if cardinal points even apply here? theres not even a map of it (that is, the kind you normally see at the bottom-left corner of the screen).

You may be asking where am I trying to get, let's look at TP, the lost woods are present here, but where? where is this misterious wood? where is it that skull kids live? where there isn't a map? and gates are pitch black until you enter them?

The lost woods are the sacred groove now, and I think it's safe to assume it also has the same warping capacities, it is posible that the woods overrun the ToT and now it is dimension shifted (so it is imposible to know it's true location), that would explain why it is seemingly in the middle of nowhere in the map, this explanation also holds likely from a nintendo standpoint, even if locations tent to shift, Nintendo tends to keep the location of a few places similar (such as death mountain), so it could be safe to asume the designers said: "Hey, we have to put the ToT next to the citadel" "But that would make the conection too forced" "there has to be way around that" "That temple there doesn't fit with this plotline, it has to be a late dungeon, and the MS has to be received way before" "just put it in the lost woods, the woods overrun the temple or something" "good idea"

Also I want to note I believe the Hyrule Castle was rebuilt, there are ruins in the outside of the ToT in TP that resemble the castle town of OoT, and there is other evidence too

As a last note, it is not only plausible that the lost woods overrun the ToT, but it is also implied they are able to do so in another game, FSA (scroll down to "Four swords adventures")

 

[Wolf Sage]

Here's a quote from another thread of me replying to someone's post. Since it relates to the topic of this thread, I thought I'd just post it here... ...meh.

Yeah, that's definitely odd. Ocarina of Time's Temple of Time seems to throw everything off location-wise, but SS and TP's seem to make more sense, especially seeing as they both lie deep in the Faron Woods, which is mysteriously "absent" in OoT. The only explanation for the OoT ToT is that it was retconned (perhaps, for gameplay reasons), and any discrepancies should be tackled with this fact in mind. It seems Nintendo may have started more or less paying attention to geography at some unknown point, but ended up confusing things in the process.

In regards to Ocarina of Time: It is interesting to note that many fans refer to Zelda as the Sage of Time; OoT seems to attest to this. The ToT of said game seems to have been assigned to her for this very fact. That being said, perhaps the ToT (OoT) is the Temple of Hylia, as Hylia is Zelda. This is what confuses things, yes, but it conversely seems to explain its placement in OoT (for gameplay reasons): near Hyrule Castle. And it's all thanks to retcon. :yes:

•The Battle for the Sacred Realm
...The Sage of Light, Rauru, constructed the Temple of Time around the only entrance to the Sacred Realm which housed the Triforce. The Sacred Realm was sealed with the Master Sword, along with the ability to pass through time. The Master Sword’s pedestal was closed off behind the Door of Time and three sacred stones acted as keys, which were guarded by the trusted people of the forest, the people of water, and the people of fire.

The Triforce was enshrined in the Temple of Light and Rauru was isolated from the world inside the Sacred Realm to continue to protect the power of the gods.

•Hyrule Kingdom’s Establishment
Those who inherited the blood of the goddess, Hylia, who was reborn into Zelda, established Hyrule. They built a castle in the centre of Hyrule, where the Temple of Time rested and watched over the Sacred Realm and the Triforce...

•Temple of Time
The only entrance to the Temple of Light in the Sacred Realm. Though it bears the same name as the temple that stood in the desert in ancient times, the Temple of Time constructed by Rauru is thought to be located where the Sealed Temple once stood.

 

[johnwolf]

i also read the HH Wolf Sage and it explains a LOT. what it DOSN'T explain is where the castle moved to. and many people question it with the movement of the master sword. also it isn't surpising that the lost woods over took the castle, if you look closly at the map in OoT, the castle has a forest behind it. With hyrule being constructed right where the godess statue is in SS, it's quite possable in TP that the lost woods retook the city without much problems or...ahem..."warping" capablities.

 

[Wolf Sage]

i also read the HH Wolf Sage and it explains a LOT. what it DOSN'T explain is where the castle moved to. and many people question it with the movement of the master sword. also it isn't surpising that the lost woods over took the castle, if you look closly at the map in OoT, the castle has a forest behind it. With hyrule being constructed right where the godess statue is in SS, it's quite possable in TP that the lost woods retook the city without much problems or...ahem..."warping" capablities.

Well, yeah, it kinda does. Or rather it implies it. The castle didn't move, rather, it was simply rebuilt in a new location. Also, it's very apparent that the OoT ToT was overtaken by forestation; I don't dispute this, but the geography only seems to match up in SS and TP, where the ToT lies smack dab in Faron Woods. This is where the discrepancy and confusion lies. I mean, how and why would it be in Faron Woods in SS, move to another location in OoT, then return to Faron Woods again in TP? This problem can only be explained by retcon; it's the only way it makes sense. Also, I'm 100% percent positive that warping had absolutely nothing to do with it.

 

[MonkeyFightSquad]

i think the temple of time from twilight princess is the same as the forest temple in oot

 

[Locke]

i think the temple of time from twilight princess is the same as the forest temple in oot

...care to explain why you think that?

 

[Cfrock]

This thread is really interesting.

It's fairly clear that the Sealed Temple in Skyward Sword became the Temple of Time in which the Master Sword rests. It also makes sense that Hyrule Castle and the town would be built around it, resulting in the Temple of Time's location in Ocarina of Time. If you look at the issue from the perspective of each individual timeline, it might be easier to figure out the location of certain buildings.

In the Adult Timeline, Hyrule Castle and the town had been destroyed by Ganondorf before he was sealed away. The castle was obviously rebuilt and, since the Master Sword can only be removed from the pedastal by someone it judges as worthy and Link wasn't there to move it, it must have been built on the site of the Temple of Time. This explains why the Master Sword is in the castle in Wind Waker. The castle basement is essentially the Temple of Time.
The big discrepancy here is that Hyrule Castle in Wind Waker is built on a tiny island in the middle of a lake. It's possible that, when rebuilding the castle, the Hylians themselves created that lake as a way of helping secure the castle from any future threat. It would have taken a huge amount of work but this is a society with easy access to explosives as well as magic so I can see this being possible. Another possibility is that the castle on the island was a result of the Goddesses flooding the world. The flood presumably did a great deal of damage to the landscape and that might explain this situation.

In the Child Timeline, Link returns the sword to the Temple of Time in Castle Town. We know that he then warned Zelda about Ganondorf's intentions and it seems highly likely this resulted in a war which ended with Ganondorf's botched execution and subsequent banishment to the Twilight Realm as well as the eradication of the Gerudo. For the war to claim an entire race of people, it must have been pretty ferocious and violent. I think it's possible that during this war, Hyrule Castle and the town suffered greatly and had to be rebuilt when the war was won. It may be a stretch to imagine, but I think during the war, the Hylians took control of more land and rebuilt the castle further north so that it was more central in the expanded kingdom. This left the Temple of Time in the original location, since the Master Sword could only be moved by someone it judged as worthy. As johnwolf said, there is a forest behind Hyrule Castle in the Ocarina of Time map and, without any major human constructions getting in the way, that forest grew large over time and enveloped the Temple of Time. That's why the Temple is in the forest in Twilight Princess.
If you consider the in-game maps from Skyward Sword, Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess and take the location of the Temple of Time (Sealed Temple in Skyward Sword) as a constant, they actually match up quite well. Where my theory differs from many posted in this thread is that I think the kingdom of Hyrule in Ocarina of Time only encompasses the Faron Province of Skyward Sword and a small part of the Eldin Province.
If you compare Ocarina of Time's map against Skyward Sword's and take Castle Town to be the same location as the Sealed Grounds, then the Kokiri Forest and Lake Hylia could easily be Faron Woods and Lake Floria. Ocarina of Time's Death Mountain could easily be Skyward Sword's Eldin Volcano.
As I said previously, I believe the kingdom of Hyrule expanded during the war against Ganondorf and the Gerudo in the Child Timeline. This is when the Hylians took control of Lanayru Province as well as the Gerudo Desert. Hyrule Castle is rebuilt after the old castle was destroyed during the war and was built in a new location more central to the expanded territory of Hyrule. This is the castle we see in Twilight Princess.

In the Hero Defeated timeline, Hyrule Castle and the town were destoryed and Ganon was sealed away once Link was defeated in battle. The Imprisoning War was eventually fought and considering the amount of violence during this time, I think what was left of the town was completely destoryed, including the Temple of Time. Once more, the castle was rebuilt in a different location and the forest grew around the Pedastal of Time, the only thing left of the Temple. This is why only the pedastal is present in A Link To The Past.
If you compare the in-game map fo Ocarina of Time with A Link To The Past there is some correlation. If you take the position of Castle Town from Ocarina of Time as the same location as the Master Sword in A Link To The Past, then Death Mountain's position is largely unchanged, as is that of Kakariko Village. Where it doesn't match up is that the Kokiri Forest seems to become the desert and Zora's Domain becomes Lake Hylia. It's possible these changes were a result of the victorious Ganon's actions, but why Hyrule Castle would be rebuilt east of its position from Ocarina of Time is something I can't explain. I still think this scenario is possible.

That's what I think about this issue and thanks to anyone who read through it all. Of course, there are holes in this theory but there always will be when dealing with Zelda. It's the theorising and discussion which adds to my enjoyment of the franchise though.