The Seal / Imprisoning War

[MrMosley]

There's a ton of debate about this event in regards to Zelda, and more specifically, its timeline. Placing the Seal War accurately is a very big deal because so many things are based on it. Some people believe OoT to still be the events of the Seal War, possibly changed over time to the point to where by ALttP, its history was believed to be a full-scale war, and very different from OoT's events. Others would say that OoT as the SW is impossible because Ganondorf came out of the Sacred Realm after touching the Triforce. Believers of the OoT=SW side would then probably argue that he was "sealed" back in at that the end, thus, the "Seal" War. But then non-OoT=SW theorists would say well WW shows that he got out again.

You can see that this would probably go back and forth until the most minute of details were brought about as evidence. Which is why its such a hot topic of debate. What was once a mere tale to set up ALttP has became one of the biggest defining events in Zelda. The SW was where Ganondorf was originally supposed to have been the first person to discover the Sacred Realm and touch the Triforce, transforming it into the Dark World, and Ganondorf into his pig/beast form, known as Ganon. Since ALttP's original release, we have seen many games that alter this story in different ways.

FSA is another game that was supposed to have been or taken place during the events of the SW, however, that was changed in late development. A problem with FSA is that Ganondorf is looking for the Trident, not the Triforce, and he becomes Ganon in it before he even has the Triforce.

So, there are a lot of things that are hit and miss with this Seal War story. Still, no one can seem to make perfect sense of it without any inconsistencies (like a lot of things in the Zelda timeline). But, even so, theorists continue to debate about its placement, whether it was OoT or a separate event, whether or not details about the SW have been completely changed, etc. So this will be the thread to do just that: Debate on different subjects about the Seal/Imprissoning War.

 

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Important quotes:

NP: Where do all the Zelda games fall into place when arranged chronologically by their stories?
Miyamoto: Ocarina of Time is the first story, then the original Legend of Zelda, then Zelda II: The Adventure of Link, and finally A Link to the Past. It's not very clear where Link's Awakening fits in--it could be anytime after Ocarina of Time.

In past, when you thought about Ganon in Zelda, he was a pig. This time, when were collaborating ideas, we thought "He wouldn't be a pig, would he?" There were even some who thought "I don't want him to be a pig." But I still thought that at least the end should have Ganon as a pig. The whole time I wanted to know what Mr. Miyamoto thought, but in the end, I realized that Mr. Miyamoto didn't have an opinion on the matter, so I decided to do it the way I wanted.

This time, the story really wasn't an original. We were dealing with the "The Imprisoning War of the Seven Sages" from the SNES edition Zelda. To give that game a little "secret" recognition, I thought that keeping the "pigness" in Ganon would be the correct course. So we made him a beast "with the feeling of a pig."

Well, in that sense, "a pig is a pig." When he transforms, and we see the rise of face, there is that not quite concealed feeling of a pig left. (Character Designer Satoru Takizawa)

Question: Could you please find how this game connects with the previous ones?

Though in this game Zelda is now included in the Seven Sages, the other six have the names of the town names from the Disk System edition "The Adventure of Link."

In the SNES edition game, the story "Long ago, there was a war called the Imprisoning War" was passed along. A name in the Imprisoning War era is the name of a Town later. They were like "pseudo-secrets." We wanted to throw these out through the entirety of the game. That thing from then is now this.

Tarin and Marin, a father and girl who appeared in "Link's Awakening" (G were used as the base for a different parent and child who comes out in this game. These are the things that when they are seen by a person who has played Zelda before they will understand. If people begin to think "Do you think that this could be that thing from then?" then I will be happy. (Script Director Toru Osawa)

Question: Dan, it appears something about the Legend of Zelda: Link to the Past translation is jumbled. It is said the events played out in Ocarina of Time were the events that happened in the story of A Link to the Past, and therefore were to solve many story holes. But if Zelda 3's instruction manual is read, these events sound completely different, and now there seem to be more holes than ever. It clearly states on the back of the box of A Link to the Past that it was a prequel to Zelda’s 1 and 2, but Miyamoto says it comes after them. What's the truth?

Dan: The truth is, the text on the box (and possibly the Nintendo Power guide) is wrong. D'oh! If you just ignore the box text, the stories fit together better. Basically, the events in Ocarina are the "Imprisoning War" described in the SNES version's story. The Golden Land was the Sacred Realm before Ganondorf corrupted it. The order of the stories is: Ocarina, Zelda 1, Zelda 2, A Link to the Past. Since Link's Awakening was a dream (or was it?) it's hard to say where it fits.

Note: the last one was from Dan Owsen who works for NoA. The only reason I include it is because it's someone from NoA admitting that the infamous box was wrong.

OoT WAS the SW in 1998. And the timeline clearly went OoT-LoZ/AoL-LttP in 1998. Which means that there WAS a gap between the SW and LttP.

Combined with the fact that the current Ganon "rediscovered" the SR, and the SW is supposed to be the first time the SR is discovered, a gap between the SW and LttP isn't so much out of the question.

 

[MrMosley]

From a personal point of view, I don't think OoT is the SW. I believe it was supposed to be at one point, but that changed. I think it changed when WW was released. I also do not believe that the Miyamoto Order is valid.

For me, I think Ganon's outward appearance changing from game to game is very significant. The games have played on this significance before, showing that Ganondorf became Ganon when he found the Trident of Power in FSA, and when he wished on the Triforce in ALttP. In my view, this was to set up Ganon being in his pig form in LoZ, as after ALttP he was supposed to be "stuck" in that form forever.

We have seen that he can physically transform into a version of his beast form in OoT and TP, though these two were notably different. Ganon in OoT was much more like Ganon from ALttP, though he seemed to be more crazed or power-driven. This is the same as in TP. In those games, Ganondorf used the Triforce of Power to transform himself into his beast form for a particular purpose, and that was because he was being defeated. He needed to unleash the extent of his power in order to battle Link. In other games, he was in this form presumably the entire time, as most people place the other games some time after ALttP, which gives us a reason for Ganon being in his pig form.

Now, all of this has a connection to the SW. In the SW, as taken from ALttP, Ganon wished on the Triforce. It transformed the Sacred Realm into the Dark World, along with all its inhabitants. Ganondorf was also permanently transformed into Ganon. These events did not occur during OoT. When Ganondorf entered the SR in OoT, he touched the Triforce and came out. He then took over Hyrule. At the end of the Adult portion of the game, he was then sealed. The fact that he came out after going in contradicts ALttP's BS of the Seal War. Then, there are beliefs that ALttP might come on the AT, in a newly established Hyrule some generations after WW. This would also cause a problem with OoT being the SW though, because Ganondorf escaped for WW.

So no matter where you try to put the SW, it cannot be the events of OoT, in my opinion. GBA ALttP tells the same story as the SNES version did. I have argued before that the quotes in that game, regardless of if they have changed, still imply the same plot of the SW in that Ganon was sealed and remained through ALttP. The only way to place the Seal War is by putting it somewhere that does not break the rules or contradict the SW as stated by ALttP. It would have to come before ALttP, and after any game before ALttP. Right now, as my timeline stands, the CT looks like this:

OoT/MM--TP--FS/FSA--ALttP

Therefore, the SW would have to come between FSA and ALttP, based on the information thus far.

 

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I also do not believe that the Miyamoto Order is valid.

You don't believe it is valid now, or you don't believe it was ever valid? I personally don't think it is valid now, but it was in 1998.

The fact that he came out after going in contradicts ALttP's BS of the Seal War.

What? 1) The SNES manual SAYS he came out. 2) Even if SNES manual isn't canon, if SW Ganon = LttP Ganon then he came out anyways because they sealed that evil that came out of the SR.

So no matter where you try to put the SW, it cannot be the events of OoT, in my opinion. GBA ALttP tells the same story as the SNES version did.

If it tells the same story, then those inconsistencies don't matter. Because in 1998 OoT was the SW, and there was a game with Ganon between OoT and LttP. If the fact that those inconsistencies didn't matter to developers in 1998, I can't imagine they would magically matter now.

 

[MrMosley]

You don't believe it is valid now, or you don't believe it was ever valid? I personally don't think it is valid now, but it was in 1998.

Well in 1998, I never cared or thought about such a complex timeline. But looking back at that particular time, yes I think it might have easily worked as the SW.

What? 1) The SNES manual SAYS he came out. 2) Even if SNES manual isn't canon, if SW Ganon = LttP Ganon then he came out anyways because they sealed that evil that came out of the SR.

Yes it said evil began to flow from the opening to the SR. But it does not say Ganon came out. It does not say he was the evil. In fact, it says the direct opposite. It says that Ganondorf could not find a way out. Evil flowing from the entrance was probably just random monsters who had been transformed by Ganondorf's wish.

Quotes from one of the Maidens in GBA ALttP:

"...The Triforce will grant the
wishes of whoever touches it,
as long as that person lives...
That is why it was hidden in
the Golden Land. Only a select
few were told of its location,
but at some point that
knowledge was lost...
The one who rediscovered
the Golden Land was
an evil thief named Ganondorf.
Luckily, he couldn't figure out
how to return to the Light
World..."

This is a quote taken from GBA ALttP. That one quote alone tells you that Ganondorf did not come out of the SR after he entered it and wished upon the Triforce. And:

Quote from (someone) in GBA ALttP

So the king commanded seven
sages to seal the gate to
the land of the Golden Power.
Many brave knights were lost
in the battle to protect the
sages from the tides of evil,
but the seal was cast! Evil
flowed no more! And the seal
would remain for all time...
Or so the people hoped...
But when these events were
obscured by the mists of
time, and became legend...

That quote signifies that after the fact that Ganondorf went in and wished on the Triforce, the Sages sealed the opening. Now remembering that the first quote says he never came out, that's a pretty solid fact I think that he went in during the SW and was sealed. Then, there is this quote:

A mysterious wizard known as
Agahnim appeared as from
nowhere...
and with strange magic powers
he eliminated the good king of
Hyrule...

He cast spells on the soldiers
and kidnapped young maidens
descended from the sages
in order to break the seal...

Which comes in succession after the last. Obviously, Agahnim kindapping the maidens in ALttP was a means of breaking the Seal. The original quote says that Ganondorf went in and wished upon the Triforce and did not come back out. The second quote states that the Sages sealed the entrance to the Sacred Realm. The third quote signifies that the Seal remained for all time until Agahnim came up with a way to break it, which occurs in ALttP with him kidnapping the maidens. These three quotes alone make the idea of OoT's events being the SW, as well as LoZ occurring before ALttP, obsolete.

If it tells the same story, then those inconsistencies don't matter. Because in 1998 OoT was the SW, and there was a game with Ganon between OoT and LttP. If the fact that those inconsistencies didn't matter to developers in 1998, I can't imagine they would magically matter now.

But I don't think LoZ/AoL--ALttP ever worked. Not then, nor now. I disagree with that idea even if Miyamoto and Dan (whatever his last name was) said it. The only thing that is consistent is the fact that Ganon has the ToP in OoT and then in LoZ. And he's not even in his human form in LoZ, which I view as a large inconstancy when trying to connect it to OoT.

 

[Skull_Kid]

In my opinion, if we were to call a game the events of the SW, it would have to be FSA, all the Hyrule Knights die, betrayed and tricked into turning the Huge Stalfos, Ganondorf grabs the ToP(Trident of Power, in this case), and is found in the Dark World...
We all know that the Dark World is the Sacred Realm corrupted by ganon's wishes.

 

[Erimgard]

Tell me DarkLink, at what point in any of those quotes is it stated that the Seal was cast because the Triforce was wished on?

It was cast to stop evil from flowing. Evil can flow without a Triforce wish. I think you refusing to address my points in the other thread with proof is an outright act of cowardice. Saying "I don't want to debate this any more because I like my opinion better than yours", instead of looking for facts, and then informing me that anything I post about the Seal War (which was very much still a relevant matter in the thread, as Caleb had not yet addressed the possiblity of the Miyamoto Timeline and the Seal War not having to coincide with OoT) would be deleted, shows that you don't wish to think for yourself.

I'm going to ask you again, since you made a thread for it specifically:

Since the GBA version, the most recent, most canon version never says that the Seal was cast in response to a Triforce wish, but only in response to evil flowing from the Sacred Realm, and since it also never states that Ganon was involved in the Seal War, but only that when he successfully wished on the Triforce that he "couldn't figure out how to return", what prevents the Seal War from being the Seal in OoT (or any other event), cast to only stop evil, and not a wish, with Ganon's entry and successfull wish prior to aLttP from being a separate event?

 

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Yes it said evil began to flow from the opening to the SR. But it does not say Ganon came out. It does not say he was the evil. In fact, it says the direct opposite. It says that Ganondorf could not find a way out. Evil flowing from the entrance was probably just random monsters who had been transformed by Ganondorf's wish.

Maybe it's because, you know, current Ganondorf wasn't in the SW? There is NOTHING that links the evil coming out of the SR to Ganondorf. Ganondorf clearly couldn't get out of the SR after he came in to get the Triforce, but the evil that was sealed could.

 

[MrMosley]

Tell me DarkLink, at what point in any of those quotes is it stated that the Seal was cast because the Triforce was wished on?

You cannot be serious....

I am not wanting to think for myself? I believe you just do not want to let go of your theories that make no sense. I have already proven my points. If you can't connect the dots with those quotes then I suggest you try a bit harder.

The Sacred Realm had no evil in it. It took the wish to turn it into the Dark World. It says Ganondorf entered the SR and evil began to flow out. We know by playing the game that Ganon's wish on the Triforce turned it into the Dark World. CONNECT THE DOTS. Ganon wishes on the Triforce, can't find his way back out, the SR is sealed when evil starts to pour out. What more do I have to explain? Its really getting to the point of ridiculousness with this whole debate. I asked it not to be brought up in the other thread for the fact that the other thread is not a SW thread. That's the whole reason I made this one. And you say that I don't want to debate about it. Sprout a brain, bub. Its not that I don't want to debate about it. Its that I don't want to debate with a brick-freakin'-wall, which I have done the last what, month?

 

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^No. Only the opening says that. And it never says that Ganondorf touched the Triforce. It just says that people searched for the SR, then evil power gushed forth from there. So they sealed the power.

It later says in the game that Ganondorf entered the SR, touched the Triforce and changed it, then didn't know how to get out. That's very different.

 

[Erimgard]

You cannot be serious....

I am not wanting to think for myself? I believe you just do not want to let go of your theories that make no sense. I have already proven my points. If you can't connect the dots with those quotes then I suggest you try a bit harder.[

The Sacred Realm had no evil in it. It took the wish to turn it into the Dark World.

Yet we have an example of another game (OoT) where the Triforce was not wished on, and there was still a Dark World. It does NOT take a wish to corrupt the Sacred Realm.

It says Ganondorf entered the SR and evil began to flow out. We know by playing the game that Ganon's wish on the Triforce turned it into the Dark World.

If by "it" you mean the backstory, then no. The backstory does not say that. Only the in-game quotes (which imply the Seal to be a pre-existing condition) say that.

Ganon wishes on the Triforce, can't find his way back out, the SR is sealed when evil starts to pour out.

Except that's not what it says in the quote about Ganon not finding his way back out. The quote ends there. It doesn't say "because a Seal was then cast". It just says he can't find his way out. Why can't the Seal have already been in place?

What more do I have to explain? Its really getting to the point of ridiculousness with this whole debate. I asked it not to be brought up in the other thread for the fact that the other thread is not a SW thread. That's the whole reason I made this one. And you say that I don't want to debate about it. Sprout a brain, bub. Its not that I don't want to debate about it. Its that I don't want to debate with a brick-freakin'-wall, which I have done the last what, month?

I'm asking for proof state in the canon materials. You're saying that your opinion, based on mixing and matching parts of quotes from different parts of the game, are proof that it is a certain way. It's not.

Nothing prevents the Seal from being a pre-existing condition.
Evil can flow without a wish.

 

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Something that needs to be said. I'd say it in all caps so that it's really noticeable, but apparently all caps is spam. So I'll just italicize (sp?), underline, and bold it

There is absolutely no proof that a wish was made in the SW if the GBA manual is canon. Seriously, there is absolutely NOTHING that says a wish was made in the SW as of 2002.

 

[MrMosley]

Yet we have an example of another game (OoT) where the Triforce was not wished on, and there was still a Dark World. It does NOT take a wish to corrupt the Sacred Realm.

There was no wish in OoT? I thought Ganondorf's wish was pretty clear in that game. He wanted to take over Hyrule. That is what he did.

If by "it" you mean the backstory, then no. The backstory does not say that. Only the in-game quotes (which imply the Seal to be a pre-existing condition) say that.

Does that really matter? Those quotes are speaking of the events prior to the game. The majority refer to the SW. The intro gives only a small portion of info about the SW, while the in-game quotes go into greater detail about it. Whether its the intro or quotes, its still a backstory.

Except that's not what it says in the quote about Ganon not finding his way back out. The quote ends there. It doesn't say "because a Seal was then cast". It just says he can't find his way out. Why can't the Seal have already been in place?

Again, he went in, and wished on the Triforce. He couldn't find his way out. It doesn't say "oh well later he ended up finding a way out." No. It simply, and quite specifically says, that he could not find a way out. Then, the entrance was sealed. That is the SW. And I am sorry if your not getting that, but that's how I understand it. That's the only way I can explain it.

I'm asking for proof state in the canon materials. You're saying that your opinion, based on mixing and matching parts of quotes from different parts of the game, are proof that it is a certain way. It's not.

Actually, it is. It doesn't have to be my personal beliefs. It is quotes from the game. How are quotes from the game not canon? I don't understand that. It is my opinion, based on those quotes, that they are what they say.

There is absolutely no proof that a wish was made in the SW if the GBA manual is canon. Seriously, there is absolutely NOTHING that says a wish was made in the SW as of 2002.

This is a quote from someone in the Dark World, though I can't say who exactly it was. I got this from a GBA ALttP text dump, along with the rest of my quotes.

"You're new here, aren't you?
Did you come here looking for
the Power of Gold?
Well, you're too late. It will
obey only the first person who
touches it.
The man who last claimed the
Power of Gold wished for this
world. It reflects his heart.
Yes, I came here out of greed
for the Golden Power, and
look what happened to me...
To restore the Golden Land, a
person worthy of the Golden
Power must defeat the man who
created this place...
Until that time, I am stuck in
this bizarre shape.
But what a mischievous thing
to leave lying around...
The Power of Gold...
Triforce..."

 

[Erimgard]

There was no wish in OoT? I thought Ganondorf's wish was pretty clear in that game. He wanted to take over Hyrule. That is what he did.

He never wished on the Triforce. He only received one Triforce piece. It takes three to wish.

Again, he went in, and wished on the Triforce. He couldn't find his way out. It doesn't say "oh well later he ended up finding a way out." No. It simply, and quite specifically says, that he could not find a way out. Then, the entrance was sealed. That is the SW. And I am sorry if your not getting that, but that's how I understand it. That's the only way I can explain it.

Except that the quote never ever says it was Sealed. How can that quote be the most true account of the Seal War if it never mentions a Seal? Or even the Knights of Hyrule. Or anyting else in the manual/intro?

Actually, it is. It doesn't have to be my personal beliefs. It is quotes from the game. How are quotes from the game not canon? I don't understand that. It is my opinion, based on those quotes, that they are what they say.

You're not saying what the quotes say. You're adding to the quotes.

 

[sign of table]

There was no wish in OoT? I thought Ganondorf's wish was pretty clear in that game. He wanted to take over Hyrule. That is what he did.

Ganondorf never got to make a wish... the Triforce split the moment he touched it, remember?

Does that really matter? Those quotes are speaking of the events prior to the game. The majority refer to the SW. The intro gives only a small portion of info about the SW, while the in-game quotes go into greater detail about it. Whether its the intro or quotes, its still a backstory.

But you haven't given proof that Ganondorf's touching of the Triforce is in anyway linked to the SW.

No. It simply, and quite specifically says, that he could not find a way out. Then, the entrance was sealed. That is the SW. And I am sorry if your not getting that, but that's how I understand it. That's the only way I can explain it.

No it does NOT specifically say that. It says that evil gushed forth from the SR in the SW.

Then later in the game it says that Ganondorf has touched the Triforce, but didn't know how to leave the SR. If he doesn't know how to leave, how can his evil gush forth from the SR?

The thing is, there is absolutely ZERO proof that LttP Ganondorf's touching of the Triforce is in anyway linked to the evil gushing forth from the SR in the SW.