Spoiler The case for Rauru's early reign; before Skyward Sword

[Ryuu Kage Desu]

At this time, as far as I have found, there are a number of problems with the past that Zelda was sent to, in Tears of the Kingdom, taking place after Skyward Sword.

Why after Skyward Sword does not work.​

* There is no recognition of the Master Sword, when Zelda talks about it, and her only recourse for healing the blade is in her own body.
___ Some say that the knowledge was lost, yet if the knowledge was lost, we have no means for the information to spontaneously regenerate. Some say that the knowledge was kept secret, yet Zelda is never told to stop spreading information about this great secret by the people who would be in the know, and those people (most likely to be Sonia, Rauru, and or Mineru) never recollect anything like the sword.
___ We are shown that Zelda knows a number of holy sights, yet she never takes the broken sword to any of the sights. She jumps to becoming a dragon. This indicates that she already knew these sights were not viable. For that matter, Zelda knew exactly how to get to the Master Sword, even if it was forgotten about, or kept a secret. She could have spent her days praying over the blade, or otherwise feeding it with her power. While being narratively different, it would would still be logically viable to strengthen the blade before it ever broke, or at least try.

* No recognition of Zelda's name.
___ If Sonia were descended from someone as important as a previous Zelda, she would recognize this Zelda's name.
___ I am fine with the idea that Zelda travels back in time, starting the naming trend, for which that same Zelda is named for. This is the nature of a closed loop time travel. This works best when the entire line if information is complete.
___ Yes, the backstory for Zelda 2 contains a prince who makes it law for all Hyrulian princesses to be named Zelda, but that obviously does not mean that it couldn't have been customary before that law.

* No chosen hero in Hyrule's time of need, or reference to such.
___ We literally have a game that talks about what happens when no chosen hero is born. Things go really bad, really fast. To be clear, I am not talking about a Hylian Link. Between Zelda and Sonia, if the spirit of the hero was present, one of them would have said something. And, like the lack of any recognition of the Master Sword, if there were heros of the past, there should be stories about them.

* The royal crest, or what is likely to be the royal crest, is different.
___ This follows the same logic as information about the Master Sword, Zelda's name, and knowledge of the chosen hero, popping in and out of existence. Archeology does exist, but it is never perfect, neither does it claim to be perfect. If there was a break in any of this information, then it was rediscovered, the knowledge would be imperfect. The crest we see in BotW/TotK would look different, especially if it devolved into the crest we see Rauru using.

(A common thread with these last four points is that when information is lost, it stays lost.)
(At best, without a strong mechanism for information to be perfectly preserved, when information does return, it is imperfect.)
(Ultimately, this would mean that the information is never lost.)​

* Sonia's powers don't fit for what we see for a descendant of Hylia, and her powers are far too weak.
___ The power that Sonia does show, time manipulation, has never been displayed by anyone related to Hylia, despite her title as Goddess of Time. If anything, Rauru is the one who shows the powers displayed by even the earliest Zelda in the chronology; sealing. Neither of them show any power of premonition.
___ Sonia's trained power level is also very low, in comparison to Zelsa's untrained power. Some try to explain this by the purification ceremonies that Zelda performed, yet Sonia is a priestess. Her job would have literally been to perform any existing ceremonies on the regular.
___ Additionally, for this point, priestess does not mean royalty, or descended from a god(ess). It does not preclude either possibility, but neither does being a lizard.

* Depending on how strong, and consistent you think the cloud barrier is/was, it could very well have interfered with the raising of the land mass, into the sky.
___ Some think the Cloud Barrier is/was entirely illusary, and that it comes and goes. If this is true, this point is a non issue. Although, from what we see in game, we are only told about it's creation once (in Skyward Sword), and we only see it's dissipation once (in Tears of the Kingdom). There is also the issue of Girahim relying on sending a tornado to knock Zelda out of the sky. He apparently knew exactly where Zelda was. If the Cloud Barrier wasn't an actual barrier, he could have simply taken her in the middle of the night. On top of that, whenever Link visits anything above the clouds, in other games, it is through special means, indicating that going up is not as easy as falling down. If Ocarina of time is any indication, with Ganondorf raising the castle, it looks like the structure is straining against the barrier.

* The Sky Barrier would have interfered with the legend of the Storm Ark, placing both Rito history and the Rito sage aligned with Rauru before the creation of the Cloud Barrier.
___ The Rito know about the sky islands.
___ There are dark grey clouds mentioned in the legend, which do get in the way. Yet, the Barrier, always shows clear skies or otherwise regular weather, from below. The clouds mentioned in the legend are part of something else.
___ As stated earlier, it wouldn't be much of a barrier, if the ship could have easily just sailed through from below.

But, is there evidence to support this, in Skyward Sword, or any other game?​

Yes. Yes there is.​

For a complete dive on what I have found to this subject in Skyward Sword, please visit one of my previous threads: https://zeldadungeon.net/forum/thre...-tears-of-the-kingdom-to-skyward-sword.75660/ . Here are just a few highlights for why I think the nation before SS was built by Zoni hands, and why I think there are hints about the existence of the Zora, Rito, and Gerudo in that time.

* Their technology is activated by striking it, and the intelligent robots/constructs have limbs that have free floating parts.
___ Despite some styling differences, the technology operates the same.



* The Ancient Cistern suggests that the Zora did exist before SS
___ The front entrance has the same fish design that the Zora domain has now.
___ The back of the Buddha statue's head looks like either scales or feathers. I'm leaning towards scales.
___ And, yes, the Zora can exit along side of the Parella.

(Evolution does not replace one creature with another. We exist along side apes. All multicelular life exists along side single celled life.)​

* In Skyview Temple, there are accurate depictions of the loftwings, but more prominent are the bird like statues that more closely resemble the Rito we see now.
___ Not to mention the Rito we see in Wind Waker are physiologically different from the Rito we see now.
___ There is also the theory (not my own, but still of use here) that the Rito we saw in Wind Waker were related to the Zora due to inter breeding with them. Coupling between races in a thing we see throuout the series, though usually with a Hylian.

(To say we have no history of something is not the same thing as it not existing, and one point in that history is no longer adequate to hang an old theory on.)​

(Pay attention to the beaks, and the upright stance, of the statues.)​

* The Gerudo Dragonfly got the name from somewhere.
___ The Gerudo Desert is not present. A theory that I think is wrong, yet is common place, is that the desert area, in Skyward Sword, becomes the Gerudo Desert. This would mean that the location is named after the people, not the other way around. This also means that the insect would be named after the people. If you have seen my topography post; https://zeldadungeon.net/forum/threads/hyrule-topography-2-0.75869/ , you know I place the two regions quite a distance apart. Never the less, I find it likely for the insect and the desert to be named after the people.

* The Owl King
___ Rauru, in Tears of the Kingdom, literally wears an owl on his chest. He is, if anyone, The Owl King, possibly even related to the Labyrinth.
___ Funnily enough, many chests related to the Zoni have owl features.
___ The spirit temple even has numerous owl statues.

In Minish Cap​

* The Zoni are strikingly similar to the Minish.
___ They both look to have short fur. They have snouts. Long, long pointed ears. The Hero's aspect, in Tears of the Kingdom, has a tail resembling the Minish tail.
___ They both came from the sky, to help Hyrule develop. As we see some shrines grow, and objects shrink to fit to weapons, both in TotK, the Zoni have/had the ability to manipulate size.
___ The technology that is shown to have been created by the Minish is similar, on the small insides, to the exterior of the Ancient Sheikah technology from BotW/TotK, in some Zoni items, as well as many technologies presented in Skyward Sword.
___ The eye symbol used by Vaati, and how similar it is to the Sheikah symbol has also been connected to Rauru's third eye, and Sonia's tattoos. It is enterly possible that the symbol started with the Zoni and was used by Sheikah as well as the Minish, leading to Vaati making use of it.
___ This would even explain why the Zoni were disappearing, and how they can reappear later to be one of the hero's to fight against the Calamity.
___ The Minish were even known as Picori, indicating that a name change happened relatively recently.
___ And, before we move on, we have only seen three Zoni, and a number of stylized statues. Rauru and Mineru show signs of body modifications. Most promently, their third eye appears mechanical, and don't match their other eyes. For all we know, the Hero's aspect is the more true Zoni form. We may not have seen any Zoni without body modifications. The only things we can say for sure are the common traits.

The problems with this theory?​

I don't see a problem; here is why.
(Some are a bit silly. I'll let you decide which ones are the silliest, though many are arguments I have dealt with.)​

Argument > The only real issue, I see, with placing Rauru's reign before SS, is the presence of Ganondorf. This is usually expresses as either Ganondorf being the reincarnation of Demise, somehow generated by the curse, or the Ocarina of Time Ganondorf being the first.

* No game states that Ocarina of Time is the first time there is ever a Ganondorf.
___ We are, however, told that there have been other Gerudo males, who were made king. Enough so that it was well known, even outside of the Gerudo tribe, as an ongoing thing.

* We see obvious visuals that this (TotK) version of Ganondorf is drawing heavily on the power of Demise.
___ This is easier if Demise were still alive. Though may be possible shortly after the death of Demise.
___ It would also give Demise the missing motivation for his attack. It that Ganondorf awoke Demise, or served Demise. (This service idea is most similar to the film relation between Ronan the Accuser, and Thanos.) When Ganondorf failed to attain the power Demise wanted, he decided to do it himself.
___ Alternately, Ganondorf drew on the recently releases energy of the demise of Demise. This still places Rauru's reign in the past, due to the final battle with Demise happening in the past. It also creates a much shorter timetable for the pre Skyward Sword Hyrule to exist.

Argument > It has also been expressed that having a Ganondorf before Demise short cuts Demise as the source of evil.

* This ignores the idea that he is drawing power from Demise.
___ Regardless of when this version of Ganondorf acquires the stone, in relation to Demise speaking the curse, Demise is still the source of corruption.

Argument > If Ganondorf were sealed the whole time, it would interfere with his rebirth cycle.

* Yes, it would. But, it's not a problem. It's an explanation!
___ The hero, Link, is simply allowed to be reborn (some theories and BotW aside). By the logic of the characters looping through a rebirth, or reincarnation, cycle, it would make more sense to allow Ganondorf to be reborn, rather than resurrecting him. Perhaps, Ganon's followers would try to keep Link as healthy and long lived as possible. Even seal Link, to keep him alive, and misalign the cycle.
___ Unless, Ganondorf can't reincarnate, like everyone else. It would explain why his forces are always trying to resurrect him. Before the seal was weakened enough for the original Ganondorf to manifest the Calamity, his aspect had to be drawn out, on purpose.
___ It would also explain why his mothers are the two witches, rather than a single(ish?) mother and some estranged father, like other Gerudo. The natural born male may be quietly adopted by the witches, then used as a vessel for Ganondorf's aspect. (this one is less of a point, and more of a theory, in of itself)

Argument > There was no evidence of a Hyrule, or any kingdom, in the history of Skyward Sword. At best, the land was called Hylia, or the Land of Hylia, comprised of separate tribes, lead directly by Hylia.

* There are a few problems with this argument.
___ I would like to start by pointing out that Hyrule is literally the land of Hylia. Hyrule is obviously derived from the name Hylia. This difference comes across as the difference between a title and a name, or even a nit pick.
___ It is also important to point out that the facilities we see below the clouds (in SS) are too specialized, and too large, to be simple tribal projects. What's the point in creating a mine that huge, unless there is demand for it. when Link meats the skipper he is even found at a port that is connected to railroad tracks, cluttered by what looks like shipping containers. The lands below was absolutely a large nation.
___ If it was also lead by Hylia, it would be the definition of Rule by Divine Right.
___ There is also the Hylian Shield, which is described, in game (SS), as already being legendary.

Argument > The official timeline lists the founding between Skyward Sword and Minish Cap.

* This would still be the founding of the version of Hyrule we have always played.
___ Though, it is now technically a re-founding. As far as Hylia would be concerned, it would be more of a continuation, more akin to renovating a house.
___ The official timeline has gone through many changes already, and will go through more, as future games come out.

Argument > But, Groose started the Gerudo.

* A fine theory, but nothing that is confirmed.
___ Groose wasn't the only red haired individual above the clouds. They are not stated to be related in any way, though only direct family connections are stated, such as siblings, or parents. There is also no indication of attraction between the two.
___ It is just as likely that Hylia knew the family line that would birth the next male, and sent her/them to Skyloft, along with the others, to avoid Ganondorf taking a hold of the body during the events we see in the game. Yet, Groose was still drawn in.

Argument > The castle! There's no castle in Skyward Sword, or the castle was destroyed/lifted in x game, or the castle is so close in Ocarina of Time.

* A decent argument, on the surface, until you simply pay attention to Tears of the Kingdom.
___ The castle in question, the one protecting Ganondorf's seal, is nowhere in the bounds of Skyward Sword, compared to the resting place of the Master Sword pedestal. The same goes for Ocarina of Time. When looking at the one castle we know for a fact is above the seal, it is a considerable distance from the pedestal.
___ There are two ways to think about the castle in Ocarina of Time.
_ Either the castle for OoT is a different castle, because it's not present in any other game, made obvious by how close it is to the pedestal. This would suggest that there are castle ruins in the Lost Woods, for BotW/TotK. We don't see any, though.
_ Alternately, there is my long standing portal theory, where I state that there is a portal in the Ocarina of Time's Temple of Time, that sends Link to the pedestal room. Refer to my Topography theory, linked above, for more details.
___ The castle only protects the seal. It is not the seal. It doesn't matter how many times the castle was destroyed, and rebuilt, or even lifted up; the seal is very deep. The best that any of these events could have done, would be to send shock waves down, fracturing it at most. In fact Vaati may have been the first to crack the seal, which is why we don't get another incarnation of Ganondorf until a decent time after. The smallest crack provides the smallest leak. With each attack that gets past the castle, the crack grows, allowing a larger leak, allowing for more resurrections, and eventually the full on Calamity.

 

[Turo602]

I mean, doesn't the presence of Hylians on the surface negate Rauru's founding of Hyrule anytime before Skyward Sword? Because he'd either be king of Hyrule during the time of Hylia or during an era where Hylians were living in the skies and neither make sense.

Also, I never understood the whole theory that Groose started the Gerudo just because he has red hair and a darker complexion. His character arc didn't indicate anything of the sort when his purpose is to protect Zelda, establishing the Knights of Hyrule more than anything. He even seems to have similarities to Gonzo, who's ancestor was a knight, and himself had feelings for Tetra in very much the same way Groose does for Zelda.

 

[Ryuu Kage Desu]

I mean, doesn't the presence of Hylians on the surface negate Rauru's founding of Hyrule anytime before Skyward Sword? Because he'd either be king of Hyrule during the time of Hylia or during an era where Hylians were living in the skies and neither make sense.

That's the idea that there would be a redounding, somewhere. In general, the strongest opinions seem to be the basic founding, between Skyward Sword and Minish Cap. Or, a late refounding, long after the previous games. both are flawed, in my opinion. I agree that before SS makes the most scene, and is the most direct route.

I also think you touched on an important point. Even though the title "Hylian" is never used to describe the people (aside from the Hylian shield) in SS, as far as I remember, Hylia lifted her chosen people into the sky, in the prologue. What do we call Hylia's chosen people?

Also, I never understood the whole theory that Groose started the Gerudo just because he has red hair and a darker complexion. His character arc didn't indicate anything of the sort when his purpose is to protect Zelda, establishing the Knights of Hyrule more than anything. He even seems to have similarities to Gonzo, who's ancestor was a knight, and himself had feelings for Tetra in very much the same way Groose does for Zelda.

Because people like making connections, and when they feel clever about making that connection, they defend it to the tooth and nail. With all of the symbolism put in to the character, I'm still inclined to think Groose is connected to the Gerudo, but I agree that it doesn't mean that he needs to be the progenitor. It's just as likely that the group existed before him.

 

[Zettafleya]

The only thing I've understood is that the Zonai perhaps never came down from the sky until they did in TotK's memories, so they would not have known about all the things going on in Hyrule, or things that have gone on. So no knowledge of Zelda or the Master Sword. That would make sense.

There was that game dev's comment that Hyrule may have been established and crumbled more than once, so Rauru founding this Hyrule can still make sense if he never knew about anything else that happened in the timeline.

But this may mean he didn't even know about Demise or Hylia sending the people into the sky and reincarnating.
He's completely blank on all of this.

Makes me think the developers are indeed rebooting the series in some way.
It might make sense when you have a series with a timeline going on for over three decades.

I think your theory will be good to read. I'll need some tea, first.

 

[Ryuu Kage Desu]

The only thing I've understood is that the Zonai perhaps never came down from the sky until they did in TotK's memories, so they would not have known about all the things going on in Hyrule, or things that have gone on. So no knowledge of Zelda or the Master Sword. That would make sense.

There was that game dev's comment that Hyrule may have been established and crumbled more than once, so Rauru founding this Hyrule can still make sense if he never knew about anything else that happened in the timeline.

But this may mean he didn't even know about Demise or Hylia sending the people into the sky and reincarnating.
He's completely blank on all of this.

This falls under the loss/destruction of knowledge argument. It's also a stretch that people from the lands, who would know these things wouldn't inform their new rulers about them. Rauru knew all about the Gerudo male rarity, and the tradition of them being made king; so he knew about some things. The missing information seems quite important.

With the statement that the kingdom may have been established and crumbled, it follows that the establishment between SS and MC could easily be one of those.

I think your theory will be good to read. I'll need some tea, first.

I appreciate it, and look forward to your thoughts. I like a good matcha, my self

 

[Turo602]

It honestly does feel like more of a reboot with not just how much the games mirror the original 2 on NES, but also in how specific events seem to be reoccurring in this one linear timeline. It's like a restructuring of past games while also acknowledging that the previous games are all legend as to unify this new incarnation of Hyrule and use it as a template to work off from.

It's why I think a re-founding makes the most sense. Not only is there precedence for it in the original timeline, but all the contradictions that come from the assumption that TotK's past is set during the old timeline are no longer contradictions, but entirely new events happening long after the original split timeline, yet still further back than the Calamity of 10,000 years prior to BotW.

It's a looping of events, as the ouroboros symbolism seems to indicate, which itself has always been a strong theme throughout the original timeline, except only now done in service of rebooting the series.

 

[Ryuu Kage Desu]

The interesting part about using looping timelines (al a Wheel of Time), is that the logic doesn't break this theory. It makes it stronger. It means that the time of Rauru establishing Hyrule came long before SS, came some time before BotW/TotK, and will come again.

Also, by placing the past that Zelda was sent to before the existing timeline, the present could still be a reboot, if you want to think of it that way. It's still unknown how far in that past she was sent to. In my opinion, ther are far too many connections to concider the new games a full on reboot. A soft reboot at best. The history of the past games are still obviously important to the new games, just not enough to be restricted by them.

 

[Ryuu Kage Desu]

Assuming that there was some far early nation named Hyrule that Rauru was allegedly the ruler of is fanfiction, since it isn't supported by the facts introduced in the game. As hard as I am on the ass-pulling nature of stuff like Skyward Sword and Tears of the Kingdom, the series has maintained that Hyrule only became a thing after the events of Skyward Sword. Since the series has only ever shown a Hyrule to exist after Skyward Sword, and since Rauru specifically states that he is the first king of Hyrule, it isn't much of a leap to say that his reign took place after that game.

I don't mean for fanfiction to be a derogatory term, but rather a statement about what the idea of a proto-Skyward Sword Hyrule is: a novel idea put forward that isn't supported by anything present in game. To be fair, TotK is a hard narrative to qualify. It's a story that pulls its pants down and takes a dump all over the established timeline, leaving fans to pull out a mop and explain how that dump was actually significant the whole time.

This argument (and I am using the academic definition of argument, not the angry definition) is better responded to here.

As I have outlined above, there are many, many facts to connect what we see in Skyward Sword not only to the Zoni, but to a kingdom called Hyrule that existed before the present of SS. As I stated in the other thread, as well, because it is even more relevant here:

Hidemaro Fujibayashi:

I kind of want to pose the idea that, like in real-life history, you define by the artifacts and by the data that you currently have.

when asked about time placement in relation to SS.

I mean the Hylian Shield is already legendary by the time of Skyward Sword's present. The history is defined by the artifacts.

I'm sorry to say it, but if you can not give me anything in game that tells us that Hyrule was founded for the first, and only, time after SS, then it is you, by your own definition, that is offering fan fiction.

 

[GZ Zelda]

Considering the Master Sword thread that got out of control (which, to reiterate, my position is that Fi and Zonai tech were created by the Goddess Hylia and gifted to the Hero and the Zonai respectively), thought I should finally work through this thread.

If appropriate, I'll argue for a post-ST TotK-past placement.

* There is no recognition of the Master Sword, when Zelda talks about it, and her only recourse for healing the blade is in her own body.
___ Some say that the knowledge was lost, yet if the knowledge was lost, we have no means for the information to spontaneously regenerate. Some say that the knowledge was kept secret, yet Zelda is never told to stop spreading information about this great secret by the people who would be in the know, and those people (most likely to be Sonia, Rauru, and or Mineru) never recollect anything like the sword.
___ We are shown that Zelda knows a number of holy sights, yet she never takes the broken sword to any of the sights. She jumps to becoming a dragon. This indicates that she already knew these sights were not viable. For that matter, Zelda knew exactly how to get to the Master Sword, even if it was forgotten about, or kept a secret. She could have spent her days praying over the blade, or otherwise feeding it with her power. While being narratively different, it would would still be logically viable to strengthen the blade before it ever broke, or at least try.

The Master Sword is not present at the end of the DT, CT or AT. The knowledge can be lost and then refound: the Master Sword ends the DT and CT in the Lost Woods and the AT inside Stone Ganondorf in the desert. Rediscover the Lost Woods or reclaim Ganon's Tower after Rauru seals him, and the knowledge returns.

* No recognition of Zelda's name.
___ If Sonia were descended from someone as important as a previous Zelda, she would recognize this Zelda's name.
___ I am fine with the idea that Zelda travels back in time, starting the naming trend, for which that same Zelda is named for. This is the nature of a closed loop time travel. This works best when the entire line if information is complete.
___ Yes, the backstory for Zelda 2 contains a prince who makes it law for all Hyrulian princesses to be named Zelda, but that obviously does not mean that it couldn't have been customary before that law.

This is a good point; the AT would be the best placement to counteract this name problem, but it isn't totally addressed by it.

* No chosen hero in Hyrule's time of need, or reference to such.
___ We literally have a game that talks about what happens when no chosen hero is born. Things go really bad, really fast. To be clear, I am not talking about a Hylian Link. Between Zelda and Sonia, if the spirit of the hero was present, one of them would have said something. And, like the lack of any recognition of the Master Sword, if there were heros of the past, there should be stories about them.

The AT still doesn't have a recurring hero in it and a post-flood world wouldn't generate a hero.

* Depending on how strong, and consistent you think the cloud barrier is/was, it could very well have interfered with the raising of the land mass, into the sky.
___ Some think the Cloud Barrier is/was entirely illusary, and that it comes and goes. If this is true, this point is a non issue. Although, from what we see in game, we are only told about it's creation once (in Skyward Sword), and we only see it's dissipation once (in Tears of the Kingdom). There is also the issue of Girahim relying on sending a tornado to knock Zelda out of the sky. He apparently knew exactly where Zelda was. If the Cloud Barrier wasn't an actual barrier, he could have simply taken her in the middle of the night. On top of that, whenever Link visits anything above the clouds, in other games, it is through special means, indicating that going up is not as easy as falling down. If Ocarina of time is any indication, with Ganondorf raising the castle, it looks like the structure is straining against the barrier.

I don't think this is a real problem, the Cloud Barrier is a tent, not a ceiling.

* Their technology is activated by striking it, and the intelligent robots/constructs have limbs that have free floating parts.
___ Despite some styling differences, the technology operates the same.

They are powered by different sources, however. Zonaite doesn't have time-altering capabilities.

* The Ancient Cistern suggests that the Zora did exist before SS
___ The front entrance has the same fish design that the Zora domain has now.
___ The back of the Buddha statue's head looks like either scales or feathers. I'm leaning towards scales.
___ And, yes, the Zora can exit along side of the Parella.

(Evolution does not replace one creature with another. We exist along side apes. All multicelular life exists along side single celled life.)​

The Zora's Domain fish would be inspired by the Ancient Cistern built to protect Farore's Flame. Pretty sure the "scales" are just hair. I think the intention was for the Parella to be the Zora ancestors.

* In Skyview Temple, there are accurate depictions of the loftwings, but more prominent are the bird like statues that more closely resemble the Rito we see now.
___ Not to mention the Rito we see in Wind Waker are physiologically different from the Rito we see now.
___ There is also the theory (not my own, but still of use here) that the Rito we saw in Wind Waker were related to the Zora due to inter breeding with them. Coupling between races in a thing we see throuout the series, though usually with a Hylian.

(To say we have no history of something is not the same thing as it not existing, and one point in that history is no longer adequate to hang an old theory on.)​

The Rito explicitly evolved from the Zora in WW. After centuries of evolution, it is likely they evolve into more bird-like forms down the AT. The Rito maintain the same naming conventions between WW and TotK. We have a history of something, that the Rito evolved from the Zora; you are saying that the history is not important and should be ignored.

* The Gerudo Dragonfly got the name from somewhere.
___ The Gerudo Desert is not present. A theory that I think is wrong, yet is common place, is that the desert area, in Skyward Sword, becomes the Gerudo Desert. This would mean that the location is named after the people, not the other way around. This also means that the insect would be named after the people. If you have seen my topography post; https://zeldadungeon.net/forum/threads/hyrule-topography-2-0.75869/ , you know I place the two regions quite a distance apart. Never the less, I find it likely for the insect and the desert to be named after the people.

The Geldarm and Geldman from Z1 and Z2 are called Gerudoarm and Gerudoman in Japanese and Geld can be translated to Gerudo. The Gerudo name is derived from the insect and the enemies, not the other way around would be the theory that the Gerudo are obviously not present in SS. Four of the five "past races" are not present before Skyward Sword: assumably three haven't even evolved yet.

* The Owl King
___ Rauru, in Tears of the Kingdom, literally wears an owl on his chest. He is, if anyone, The Owl King, possibly even related to the Labyrinth.
___ Funnily enough, many chests related to the Zoni have owl features.
___ The spirit temple even has numerous owl statues.

This is genuinely good evidence, but it may just be recognizing Nayru.

* The Zoni are strikingly similar to the Minish.
___ They both look to have short fur. They have snouts. Long, long pointed ears. The Hero's aspect, in Tears of the Kingdom, has a tail resembling the Minish tail.
___ They both came from the sky, to help Hyrule develop. As we see some shrines grow, and objects shrink to fit to weapons, both in TotK, the Zoni have/had the ability to manipulate size.
___ The technology that is shown to have been created by the Minish is similar, on the small insides, to the exterior of the Ancient Sheikah technology from BotW/TotK, in some Zoni items, as well as many technologies presented in Skyward Sword.
___ The eye symbol used by Vaati, and how similar it is to the Sheikah symbol has also been connected to Rauru's third eye, and Sonia's tattoos. It is enterly possible that the symbol started with the Zoni and was used by Sheikah as well as the Minish, leading to Vaati making use of it.
___ This would even explain why the Zoni were disappearing, and how they can reappear later to be one of the hero's to fight against the Calamity.
___ The Minish were even known as Picori, indicating that a name change happened relatively recently.
___ And, before we move on, we have only seen three Zoni, and a number of stylized statues. Rauru and Mineru show signs of body modifications. Most promently, their third eye appears mechanical, and don't match their other eyes. For all we know, the Hero's aspect is the more true Zoni form. We may not have seen any Zoni without body modifications. The only things we can say for sure are the common traits.

I think there is almost no doubt that the Zonai and the Minish come from above the Cloud Barrier, from a similar realm. I don't know why that would suggest that TotK happens before Minish Cap. The Minish probably use Zonai tech and green wind/spirit magic.

Argument > The only real issue, I see, with placing Rauru's reign before SS, is the presence of Ganondorf. This is usually expresses as either Ganondorf being the reincarnation of Demise, somehow generated by the curse, or the Ocarina of Time Ganondorf being the first.

This is definitely the biggest issue: Ganondorf reincarnates because of Demise.

* No game states that Ocarina of Time is the first time there is ever a Ganondorf.
___ We are, however, told that there have been other Gerudo males, who were made king. Enough so that it was well known, even outside of the Gerudo tribe, as an ongoing thing.

Why would they let another King Ganondorf? Demise doesn't mention any prior Demon King.

* We see obvious visuals that this (TotK) version of Ganondorf is drawing heavily on the power of Demise.
___ This is easier if Demise were still alive. Though may be possible shortly after the death of Demise.
___ It would also give Demise the missing motivation for his attack. It that Ganondorf awoke Demise, or served Demise. (This service idea is most similar to the film relation between Ronan the Accuser, and Thanos.) When Ganondorf failed to attain the power Demise wanted, he decided to do it himself.
___ Alternately, Ganondorf drew on the recently releases energy of the demise of Demise. This still places Rauru's reign in the past, due to the final battle with Demise happening in the past. It also creates a much shorter timetable for the pre Skyward Sword Hyrule to exist.

Yes, exactly, where is Demise? He's dead in TotK, the Statue of Hylia has descended by this point.

Argument > It has also been expressed that having a Ganondorf before Demise short cuts Demise as the source of evil.

* This ignores the idea that he is drawing power from Demise.
___ Regardless of when this version of Ganondorf acquires the stone, in relation to Demise speaking the curse, Demise is still the source of corruption.

It's just odd to have a recipient of Demise's power not be mentioned by Demise.

Argument > If Ganondorf were sealed the whole time, it would interfere with his rebirth cycle.

* Yes, it would. But, it's not a problem. It's an explanation!
___ The hero, Link, is simply allowed to be reborn (some theories and BotW aside). By the logic of the characters looping through a rebirth, or reincarnation, cycle, it would make more sense to allow Ganondorf to be reborn, rather than resurrecting him. Perhaps, Ganon's followers would try to keep Link as healthy and long lived as possible. Even seal Link, to keep him alive, and misalign the cycle.
___ Unless, Ganondorf can't reincarnate, like everyone else. It would explain why his forces are always trying to resurrect him. Before the seal was weakened enough for the original Ganondorf to manifest the Calamity, his aspect had to be drawn out, on purpose.
___ It would also explain why his mothers are the two witches, rather than a single(ish?) mother and some estranged father, like other Gerudo. The natural born male may be quietly adopted by the witches, then used as a vessel for Ganondorf's aspect. (this one is less of a point, and more of a theory, in of itself)

I agree with this, the leaking Malice would explain the Downfall Timeline well, but not if it happened before OoT. I don't think OoT Ganondorf can be "leaky TotK Ganondorf." But I guess I think FSA, ALttP and TP Ganondorf can be leaky TotK malice so I'm probably inconsistent.

Argument > There was no evidence of a Hyrule, or any kingdom, in the history of Skyward Sword. At best, the land was called Hylia, or the Land of Hylia, comprised of separate tribes, lead directly by Hylia.

* There are a few problems with this argument.
___ I would like to start by pointing out that Hyrule is literally the land of Hylia. Hyrule is obviously derived from the name Hylia. This difference comes across as the difference between a title and a name, or even a nit pick.
___ It is also important to point out that the facilities we see below the clouds (in SS) are too specialized, and too large, to be simple tribal projects. What's the point in creating a mine that huge, unless there is demand for it. when Link meats the skipper he is even found at a port that is connected to railroad tracks, cluttered by what looks like shipping containers. The lands below was absolutely a large nation.
___ If it was also lead by Hylia, it would be the definition of Rule by Divine Right.
___ There is also the Hylian Shield, which is described, in game (SS), as already being legendary.

They aren't "tribal projects," they are dragon projects, watched over by dragons Din, Lanayru and Farore. It is their legends that make Skipper and the Hylian Shield legendary. A stronger theory would be that these are Zonai dragons, but that seems kind of absurd considering their differences.

Argument > But, Groose started the Gerudo.

* A fine theory, but nothing that is confirmed.
___ Groose wasn't the only red haired individual above the clouds. They are not stated to be related in any way, though only direct family connections are stated, such as siblings, or parents. There is also no indication of attraction between the two.
___ It is just as likely that Hylia knew the family line that would birth the next male, and sent her/them to Skyloft, along with the others, to avoid Ganondorf taking a hold of the body during the events we see in the game. Yet, Groose was still drawn in.

I think this was dev intention, what with the hair and eyes, but it's not confirmed.

Argument > The castle! There's no castle in Skyward Sword, or the castle was destroyed/lifted in x game, or the castle is so close in Ocarina of Time.

* A decent argument, on the surface, until you simply pay attention to Tears of the Kingdom.
___ The castle in question, the one protecting Ganondorf's seal, is nowhere in the bounds of Skyward Sword, compared to the resting place of the Master Sword pedestal. The same goes for Ocarina of Time. When looking at the one castle we know for a fact is above the seal, it is a considerable distance from the pedestal.
___ There are two ways to think about the castle in Ocarina of Time.
_ Either the castle for OoT is a different castle, because it's not present in any other game, made obvious by how close it is to the pedestal. This would suggest that there are castle ruins in the Lost Woods, for BotW/TotK. We don't see any, though.
_ Alternately, there is my long standing portal theory, where I state that there is a portal in the Ocarina of Time's Temple of Time, that sends Link to the pedestal room. Refer to my Topography theory, linked above, for more details.
___ The castle only protects the seal. It is not the seal. It doesn't matter how many times the castle was destroyed, and rebuilt, or even lifted up; the seal is very deep. The best that any of these events could have done, would be to send shock waves down, fracturing it at most. In fact Vaati may have been the first to crack the seal, which is why we don't get another incarnation of Ganondorf until a decent time after. The smallest crack provides the smallest leak. With each attack that gets past the castle, the crack grows, allowing a larger leak, allowing for more resurrections, and eventually the full on Calamity.

Well what is the Sacred Grove? Is it the same place as the entrance to the Forest Temple in OoT? Or is it the ruins of the Temple of Time in TP? Or is it whatever it is in ALttP and ALBW? No clue, frankly, no idea. All I know is that TotK says the castle was built to hold the seal on Ganondorf, and it isn't present in SS, meaning the seal should have been broken. Same as in OoT, Ganondorf creating the moat should have broken the seal. In MC, FSA, TP, ALttP and ALBW, Hyrule Castle isn't tampered with despite being taken over, and it's off-screen in FS and Z1 (but, assuming the North Castle is Hyrule Castle, it's still present.)

I'm sorry to say it, but if you can not give me anything in game that tells us that Hyrule was founded for the first, and only, time after SS, then it is you, by your own definition, that is offering fan fiction.

Hyrule was founded after Skyward Sword, it wasn't refounded after Skyward Sword. This is what Skyward Sword tells us: there is no kingdom of Hyrule on the Surface in SS like there is underwater in WW and so there is no kingdom to be refounded.

 

[Ryuu Kage Desu]

Considering the Master Sword thread that got out of control...

That is a shame. The social dynamics going on there are fascinating, but it's still sad.

If appropriate, I'll argue for a post-ST TotK-past placement.

Thank you for your perspective. We'll see how it irons out.

which, to reiterate, my position is that Fi and Zonai tech were created by the Goddess Hylia and gifted to the Hero and the Zonai respectively

Could very well be.

The Master Sword is not present at the end of the DT, CT or AT. The knowledge can be lost and then refound: the Master Sword ends the DT and CT in the Lost Woods and the AT inside Stone Ganondorf in the desert. Rediscover the Lost Woods or reclaim Ganon's Tower after Rauru seals him, and the knowledge returns.

For the AT, we do know this for sure, being left in Ganondorf's forhead. Some even think that the Master Sword we see in WW wasn't even the origional, and that the weapon vanishe to the CT, allong with the spirit of the hero.

All we know for the CT, is that the last game didn't involve that particular blade. We also don't use the Master Sword in MC, but that doesn't mean that it was lost. It's a bit more dubious, with the DT. The last two games in that line were created before the Master Sword was conseved of. The Magic Sword may very well be the Master Sword, and many think it is. Though, I have theorized that the Magic Sword is an attempt to recreate the Master Sword (immagine if every solder in the Hyrulian army had a weapon like that). Ultimately, though, we only have one confirmed loss, and two possible losses, if we squint right. But, for both of these timelines, as you put it, Zelda would have known exactly where to look, for the Master Sword, when she was flung back in time.

I don't think simply finding the lost blade revives all of the lost information. It might bring some information back, depending on what Fi cares to reveal, and can reveal. The name of the blade is most suspect. Until the blade chooses a wielder, someone would have given the blade a different name, not knowing what it was called long ago.

The AT still doesn't have a recurring hero in it and a post-flood world wouldn't generate a hero.

Yet, we do have a recurring hero in BotW/TotK. The king was even trying to prepare for the time of the hero's return.

I don't think this is a real problem, the Cloud Barrier is a tent, not a ceiling.

Fair.

They are powered by different sources, however. Zonaite doesn't have time-altering capabilities

I think it does. This is why it costs zonite to create items for auto build, but the items don't reamin when their state is altered. The ability uses Zonite to cecall the items necissary, from a past state.

The Zora's Domain fish would be inspired by the Ancient Cistern built to protect Farore's Flame. Pretty sure the "scales" are just hair. I think the intention was for the Parella to be the Zora ancestors.

The Zora could have still evolved from the Parella. Like I said, evolution is a process of branching life, not replacing life. The structure of the systern requiers people who can survive in and out of the water. The only people we see who can naturally do that is the Zora.

The Rito explicitly evolved from the Zora in WW. After centuries of evolution, it is likely they evolve into more bird-like forms down the AT. The Rito maintain the same naming conventions between WW and TotK. We have a history of something, that the Rito evolved from the Zora; you are saying that the history is not important and should be ignored.

I'm not saying that the history we have is unimportant, or should be ignored; I am saying that the history we have is incomplete. The history we have doesn't say anything about how we can have Zora and Rito in the same time period. Not to mention there is evedence of the Rito in other timelines. The carvings in TP, and the Fokka is Z2 (who are Rito in every way but the name)

The Geldarm and Geldman from Z1 and Z2 are called Gerudoarm and Gerudoman in Japanese and Geld can be translated to Gerudo. The Gerudo name is derived from the insect and the enemies, not the other way around would be the theory that the Gerudo are obviously not present in SS. Four of the five "past races" are not present before Skyward Sword: assumably three haven't even evolved yet.

You are probably correct for the real world inspiration, for the name. But, looking at it cronologically, those enemies appear after the Gerudo people. And, as far as I have seen in real life, insects are named after existing things, not the other way around, and the same often goes for naming locations. This would mean that either the insect was named after the place or the people, with a heavier lean to the people. Then, there is also the Pirate hideout that is covered in the Gerudo colors and paterns.

I think there is almost no doubt that the Zonai and the Minish come from above the Cloud Barrier, from a similar realm. I don't know why that would suggest that TotK happens before Minish Cap. The Minish probably use Zonai tech and green wind/spirit magic.

The Minish being the Zoni partly explains why the Zoni vanish, yet we get another Zoni, a hero no less, a long time after. That said, it's more of a smaller theory born of the larger theory, that I am sure could be made to work under a different time line theory.

This is definitely the biggest issue: Ganondorf reincarnates because of Demise.

A few problems with this, as an argument against the pre SS placement.

The curse of Demise is innaced in the past of SS, during the final battle, not the present of SS. TotK Ganondorf may very well be part of that cures, as well as living before SS.

We never actually see Ganondorf reincarnate. The closest we see is FSA, where we do see a new person with that name, but he is changed when he gets ahold of the trident. Zelda even reffers to him as "ancient demon reborn" because of it. Ganondorf's forces seem th focuss on ressurrection, rather than waiting on the reincarnation cycle, like Hyrule does. Like I said in another place, it's not a problem, it's an explination.

Why would they let another King Ganondorf? Demise doesn't mention any prior Demon King.

On the surface, this could be argued for either Ganondorf coming before the other. To me, the answer lies in memory 12, of TotK, and the Gerudos of OoT. In the memory, the Gerudo sage reports that the last free Gerudo settlement has fallen. In OoT the gerudo take the first oppertunity to switch alegencies. Nabooru was even had to be brainwashed, to keep her in line. In OoT, it wasn't a mater of letting another Ganondorf become king, but was forced upon them. TotK Ganondorf subjigated the Gerudo, OoT Ganondorf started loosing control of the people.

It's just odd to have a recipient of Demise's power not be mentioned by Demise.

Do any demon kings/lords/gods mention any other demon kings/lords/gods? Demise barely even acknolages Girihim. Plus, it would be a major tactical blunder to inform your enemy of what your alternate attack plan is.

Yes, exactly, where is Demise? He's dead in TotK, the Statue of Hylia has descended by this point.

At this point, there are two possibilites. One is that Demise attacks after Ganondorf is sealed; bassically doing the Thanos, "I'll do it my self," meme. In this senario, Demise just hasen't attacked, yet. The other is that the memories we see take place within the time of Demise being sealed as the Imprisoned. This senario requiers time travel logic because Demise has been killed in the past of SS, but is also still locked away as the Imprisoned.

Also, are you saying that the Statue has decended by the point of Rauru's reign, or assended? There is no sign of the statue in the memories. Memory 12 even takes place where the statue is seen in BotW/TotK-present. Depending on which of the two senarios I just outlined, the statue may not have even been constructed yet, or it may already be above the clouds.

They aren't "tribal projects," they are dragon projects, watched over by dragons Din, Lanayru and Farore. It is their legends that make Skipper and the Hylian Shield legendary. A stronger theory would be that these are Zonai dragons, but that seems kind of absurd considering their differences.

I agree with you that they aren't tribal projects. They aren't isolated projects, either, even if they are watched over by dragons. They are too specalized, and too massive, to be an isolated community. They are inter connected, serving what was a larger community, such as a country.

The SS dragons being Zoni dragons does actually fit with this as well. We are not told how long it takes a dragon to loose itself. We only have Zelda and Ganon to go off of, and even that is scant, at best. Even after all that time, Zelda sheds one last memory tear, and she rushes in to Link's aid at the end, telling me that there was something left of Zelda in that dragon. From what we see of Ganondorf, he is full bent on taking out Link before he swallows the stone, and he follows through, or attempts to. If the loss of self were instintanous, there would be no final battle. There would just be a mindless dark dragon looming about. I think the loss of self is more gradual, where a finite mind is forced to live well beyond it's experation date, and years start to tick by like hours. It would also allow the voices of the labrenths to be the dragons, like many theorize.

Well what is the Sacred Grove? Is it the same place as the entrance to the Forest Temple in OoT? Or is it the ruins of the Temple of Time in TP? Or is it whatever it is in ALttP and ALBW? No clue, frankly, no idea. All I know is that TotK says the castle was built to hold the seal on Ganondorf, and it isn't present in SS, meaning the seal should have been broken. Same as in OoT, Ganondorf creating the moat should have broken the seal. In MC, FSA, TP, ALttP and ALBW, Hyrule Castle isn't tampered with despite being taken over, and it's off-screen in FS and Z1 (but, assuming the North Castle is Hyrule Castle, it's still present.)

Here is a map to help visualize what I'm talking about.

The northern location is where I think the sword was always kept, and is also ground zero for the squishing of The Imprisoned. I also think the Great Deku Tree we see now was the Tree of Life we planted near the pedestal. When the Temple of Time was rebuilt, due to the original being sent into the sky, multiple structures were built, being connected by portals. The portal connection is why nobody, such as Ganon's forces, could simply go around the back, and find these locations. I go far more in depth in my Hyrule Topography threads, the latest being 2.0.

As far as the multiple times the castle is disturbed, and I count MC, the castle is not the seal on Ganondorf itself, but a seal on a seal. Judging on the many broken seals we encounter on the way down to meet Mummydorf, the castle is more of a seal on multiple layers of seals, on the main central seal. When the castle is altered (MC), lifted (OoT), blown up (TP), and so on, the series of seals are likely fractured, allowing increasing amounts of power out.

And the other point, is that if the pedestal is the same location as SS, we simply never get close enough to see if there is a castle present. Plus, if the TotK memories did take place between SS past and SS present, the castle may have not even been built yet.

Hyrule was founded after Skyward Sword, it wasn't refounded after Skyward Sword. This is what Skyward Sword tells us: there is no kingdom of Hyrule on the Surface in SS like there is underwater in WW and so there is no kingdom to be refounded.

SS tells us that there was a powerful nation, led by divine right, that vinerated Hylia, to the point where the land itself was named after her, and we have existing elements (crest and shield) refrencing Hyrule. The chosen people of Hylia came from the surface, and return to it. The people we interact with, above the clouds are more advanced than we see in the TotK memories.

And, I'm just connecting these dots: The people before Rauru thought of the Zoni as Gods, due in large part because of their abilites and coming from the sky. This doesn't fit a people who were recently saved by Hylia, have a living or recently living embodyment of Hylia, and had recently came from the sky as well. This only fits events that came from before Hylia rose the people to the sky, or a future so distant that their patron goddess, who is imblazoned all throughout the land, could be forgotten. And, this is coming from a people who have legends that are faithfully remembered for at least as long as Hyrule's founding to the current day TotK.

The only thing using the word "founded" between SS and MC, is a document that also tells us that what the document tells us is up for interpritation.

I look forward to more of your thoughts.

 

[Lambsquirt]

It honestly does feel like more of a reboot with not just how much the games mirror the original 2 on NES, but also in how specific events seem to be reoccurring in this one linear timeline. It's like a restructuring of past games while also acknowledging that the previous games are all legend as to unify this new incarnation of Hyrule and use it as a template to work off from.

It's why I think a re-founding makes the most sense. Not only is there precedence for it in the original timeline, but all the contradictions that come from the assumption that TotK's past is set during the old timeline are no longer contradictions, but entirely new events happening long after the original split timeline, yet still further back than the Calamity of 10,000 years prior to BotW.

It's a looping of events, as the ouroboros symbolism seems to indicate, which itself has always been a strong theme throughout the original timeline, except only now done in service of rebooting the series.

Exactly why Nintendo needed to reslove the "Loop" and created our new "Datums".
The "Calamities" would also suggest they are creating the 10,000 year time frame between T.O.T.K past and T.O.T.K future.
The placement of the 3 "Temple of times" are key datums.

#Look at where Rarus Temple of Time placement is in the in-game memories T.O.T.K (past).


T.O.T.K (Past) and the concept of the "Master Sword" sent back in time and shared to "Raru (Totk past) by Zelda and Link.

OOT timeline split "Multiple master swords".

T.O.T.K (Present) Convergence of timelines. (Master Swords back to 1)

#following is a link to a simple explanation of the "Master Sword Paradox"

Spoiler - Calling All Lore Nerds #4 Final Spoiler.

"The 2 Master Sword Paradox" (Canon) "A simple solution to the time paradox of the Master Swords." "Breath of the wild" & "Tears of the Kingdom", Are indeed intertwined within the same time line. #(Lets use the "Naturally Occurring Master Sword" as our "Datum Point") For the "Master Sword"...

zeldadungeon.net

 

[Lambsquirt]

At this time, as far as I have found, there are a number of problems with the past that Zelda was sent to, in Tears of the Kingdom, taking place after Skyward Sword.

Why after Skyward Sword does not work.​

* There is no recognition of the Master Sword, when Zelda talks about it, and her only recourse for healing the blade is in her own body.
___ Some say that the knowledge was lost, yet if the knowledge was lost, we have no means for the information to spontaneously regenerate. Some say that the knowledge was kept secret, yet Zelda is never told to stop spreading information about this great secret by the people who would be in the know, and those people (most likely to be Sonia, Rauru, and or Mineru) never recollect anything like the sword.
___ We are shown that Zelda knows a number of holy sights, yet she never takes the broken sword to any of the sights. She jumps to becoming a dragon. This indicates that she already knew these sights were not viable. For that matter, Zelda knew exactly how to get to the Master Sword, even if it was forgotten about, or kept a secret. She could have spent her days praying over the blade, or otherwise feeding it with her power. While being narratively different, it would would still be logically viable to strengthen the blade before it ever broke, or at least try.

* No recognition of Zelda's name.
___ If Sonia were descended from someone as important as a previous Zelda, she would recognize this Zelda's name.
___ I am fine with the idea that Zelda travels back in time, starting the naming trend, for which that same Zelda is named for. This is the nature of a closed loop time travel. This works best when the entire line if information is complete.
___ Yes, the backstory for Zelda 2 contains a prince who makes it law for all Hyrulian princesses to be named Zelda, but that obviously does not mean that it couldn't have been customary before that law.

* No chosen hero in Hyrule's time of need, or reference to such.
___ We literally have a game that talks about what happens when no chosen hero is born. Things go really bad, really fast. To be clear, I am not talking about a Hylian Link. Between Zelda and Sonia, if the spirit of the hero was present, one of them would have said something. And, like the lack of any recognition of the Master Sword, if there were heros of the past, there should be stories about them.

* The royal crest, or what is likely to be the royal crest, is different.
___ This follows the same logic as information about the Master Sword, Zelda's name, and knowledge of the chosen hero, popping in and out of existence. Archeology does exist, but it is never perfect, neither does it claim to be perfect. If there was a break in any of this information, then it was rediscovered, the knowledge would be imperfect. The crest we see in BotW/TotK would look different, especially if it devolved into the crest we see Rauru using.

(A common thread with these last four points is that when information is lost, it stays lost.)
(At best, without a strong mechanism for information to be perfectly preserved, when information does return, it is imperfect.)
(Ultimately, this would mean that the information is never lost.)​

* Sonia's powers don't fit for what we see for a descendant of Hylia, and her powers are far too weak.
___ The power that Sonia does show, time manipulation, has never been displayed by anyone related to Hylia, despite her title as Goddess of Time. If anything, Rauru is the one who shows the powers displayed by even the earliest Zelda in the chronology; sealing. Neither of them show any power of premonition.
___ Sonia's trained power level is also very low, in comparison to Zelsa's untrained power. Some try to explain this by the purification ceremonies that Zelda performed, yet Sonia is a priestess. Her job would have literally been to perform any existing ceremonies on the regular.
___ Additionally, for this point, priestess does not mean royalty, or descended from a god(ess). It does not preclude either possibility, but neither does being a lizard.

* Depending on how strong, and consistent you think the cloud barrier is/was, it could very well have interfered with the raising of the land mass, into the sky.
___ Some think the Cloud Barrier is/was entirely illusary, and that it comes and goes. If this is true, this point is a non issue. Although, from what we see in game, we are only told about it's creation once (in Skyward Sword), and we only see it's dissipation once (in Tears of the Kingdom). There is also the issue of Girahim relying on sending a tornado to knock Zelda out of the sky. He apparently knew exactly where Zelda was. If the Cloud Barrier wasn't an actual barrier, he could have simply taken her in the middle of the night. On top of that, whenever Link visits anything above the clouds, in other games, it is through special means, indicating that going up is not as easy as falling down. If Ocarina of time is any indication, with Ganondorf raising the castle, it looks like the structure is straining against the barrier.

* The Sky Barrier would have interfered with the legend of the Storm Ark, placing both Rito history and the Rito sage aligned with Rauru before the creation of the Cloud Barrier.
___ The Rito know about the sky islands.
___ There are dark grey clouds mentioned in the legend, which do get in the way. Yet, the Barrier, always shows clear skies or otherwise regular weather, from below. The clouds mentioned in the legend are part of something else.
___ As stated earlier, it wouldn't be much of a barrier, if the ship could have easily just sailed through from below.

But, is there evidence to support this, in Skyward Sword, or any other game?​

Yes. Yes there is.​

For a complete dive on what I have found to this subject in Skyward Sword, please visit one of my previous threads: https://zeldadungeon.net/forum/thre...-tears-of-the-kingdom-to-skyward-sword.75660/ . Here are just a few highlights for why I think the nation before SS was built by Zoni hands, and why I think there are hints about the existence of the Zora, Rito, and Gerudo in that time.

* Their technology is activated by striking it, and the intelligent robots/constructs have limbs that have free floating parts.
___ Despite some styling differences, the technology operates the same.

View attachment 72399

* The Ancient Cistern suggests that the Zora did exist before SS
___ The front entrance has the same fish design that the Zora domain has now.
___ The back of the Buddha statue's head looks like either scales or feathers. I'm leaning towards scales.
___ And, yes, the Zora can exit along side of the Parella.

(Evolution does not replace one creature with another. We exist along side apes. All multicelular life exists along side single celled life.)​

View attachment 72393

* In Skyview Temple, there are accurate depictions of the loftwings, but more prominent are the bird like statues that more closely resemble the Rito we see now.
___ Not to mention the Rito we see in Wind Waker are physiologically different from the Rito we see now.
___ There is also the theory (not my own, but still of use here) that the Rito we saw in Wind Waker were related to the Zora due to inter breeding with them. Coupling between races in a thing we see throuout the series, though usually with a Hylian.

(To say we have no history of something is not the same thing as it not existing, and one point in that history is no longer adequate to hang an old theory on.)​

View attachment 72395

(Pay attention to the beaks, and the upright stance, of the statues.)​

* The Gerudo Dragonfly got the name from somewhere.
___ The Gerudo Desert is not present. A theory that I think is wrong, yet is common place, is that the desert area, in Skyward Sword, becomes the Gerudo Desert. This would mean that the location is named after the people, not the other way around. This also means that the insect would be named after the people. If you have seen my topography post; https://zeldadungeon.net/forum/threads/hyrule-topography-2-0.75869/ , you know I place the two regions quite a distance apart. Never the less, I find it likely for the insect and the desert to be named after the people.

* The Owl King
___ Rauru, in Tears of the Kingdom, literally wears an owl on his chest. He is, if anyone, The Owl King, possibly even related to the Labyrinth.
___ Funnily enough, many chests related to the Zoni have owl features.
___ The spirit temple even has numerous owl statues.

View attachment 72397

In Minish Cap​

* The Zoni are strikingly similar to the Minish.
___ They both look to have short fur. They have snouts. Long, long pointed ears. The Hero's aspect, in Tears of the Kingdom, has a tail resembling the Minish tail.
___ They both came from the sky, to help Hyrule develop. As we see some shrines grow, and objects shrink to fit to weapons, both in TotK, the Zoni have/had the ability to manipulate size.
___ The technology that is shown to have been created by the Minish is similar, on the small insides, to the exterior of the Ancient Sheikah technology from BotW/TotK, in some Zoni items, as well as many technologies presented in Skyward Sword.
___ The eye symbol used by Vaati, and how similar it is to the Sheikah symbol has also been connected to Rauru's third eye, and Sonia's tattoos. It is enterly possible that the symbol started with the Zoni and was used by Sheikah as well as the Minish, leading to Vaati making use of it.
___ This would even explain why the Zoni were disappearing, and how they can reappear later to be one of the hero's to fight against the Calamity.
___ The Minish were even known as Picori, indicating that a name change happened relatively recently.
___ And, before we move on, we have only seen three Zoni, and a number of stylized statues. Rauru and Mineru show signs of body modifications. Most promently, their third eye appears mechanical, and don't match their other eyes. For all we know, the Hero's aspect is the more true Zoni form. We may not have seen any Zoni without body modifications. The only things we can say for sure are the common traits.

View attachment 72398

The problems with this theory?​

I don't see a problem; here is why.
(Some are a bit silly. I'll let you decide which ones are the silliest, though many are arguments I have dealt with.)​

Argument > The only real issue, I see, with placing Rauru's reign before SS, is the presence of Ganondorf. This is usually expresses as either Ganondorf being the reincarnation of Demise, somehow generated by the curse, or the Ocarina of Time Ganondorf being the first.

* No game states that Ocarina of Time is the first time there is ever a Ganondorf.
___ We are, however, told that there have been other Gerudo males, who were made king. Enough so that it was well known, even outside of the Gerudo tribe, as an ongoing thing.

* We see obvious visuals that this (TotK) version of Ganondorf is drawing heavily on the power of Demise.
___ This is easier if Demise were still alive. Though may be possible shortly after the death of Demise.
___ It would also give Demise the missing motivation for his attack. It that Ganondorf awoke Demise, or served Demise. (This service idea is most similar to the film relation between Ronan the Accuser, and Thanos.) When Ganondorf failed to attain the power Demise wanted, he decided to do it himself.
___ Alternately, Ganondorf drew on the recently releases energy of the demise of Demise. This still places Rauru's reign in the past, due to the final battle with Demise happening in the past. It also creates a much shorter timetable for the pre Skyward Sword Hyrule to exist.

Argument > It has also been expressed that having a Ganondorf before Demise short cuts Demise as the source of evil.

* This ignores the idea that he is drawing power from Demise.
___ Regardless of when this version of Ganondorf acquires the stone, in relation to Demise speaking the curse, Demise is still the source of corruption.

Argument > If Ganondorf were sealed the whole time, it would interfere with his rebirth cycle.

* Yes, it would. But, it's not a problem. It's an explanation!
___ The hero, Link, is simply allowed to be reborn (some theories and BotW aside). By the logic of the characters looping through a rebirth, or reincarnation, cycle, it would make more sense to allow Ganondorf to be reborn, rather than resurrecting him. Perhaps, Ganon's followers would try to keep Link as healthy and long lived as possible. Even seal Link, to keep him alive, and misalign the cycle.
___ Unless, Ganondorf can't reincarnate, like everyone else. It would explain why his forces are always trying to resurrect him. Before the seal was weakened enough for the original Ganondorf to manifest the Calamity, his aspect had to be drawn out, on purpose.
___ It would also explain why his mothers are the two witches, rather than a single(ish?) mother and some estranged father, like other Gerudo. The natural born male may be quietly adopted by the witches, then used as a vessel for Ganondorf's aspect. (this one is less of a point, and more of a theory, in of itself)

Argument > There was no evidence of a Hyrule, or any kingdom, in the history of Skyward Sword. At best, the land was called Hylia, or the Land of Hylia, comprised of separate tribes, lead directly by Hylia.

* There are a few problems with this argument.
___ I would like to start by pointing out that Hyrule is literally the land of Hylia. Hyrule is obviously derived from the name Hylia. This difference comes across as the difference between a title and a name, or even a nit pick.
___ It is also important to point out that the facilities we see below the clouds (in SS) are too specialized, and too large, to be simple tribal projects. What's the point in creating a mine that huge, unless there is demand for it. when Link meats the skipper he is even found at a port that is connected to railroad tracks, cluttered by what looks like shipping containers. The lands below was absolutely a large nation.
___ If it was also lead by Hylia, it would be the definition of Rule by Divine Right.
___ There is also the Hylian Shield, which is described, in game (SS), as already being legendary.

Argument > The official timeline lists the founding between Skyward Sword and Minish Cap.

* This would still be the founding of the version of Hyrule we have always played.
___ Though, it is now technically a re-founding. As far as Hylia would be concerned, it would be more of a continuation, more akin to renovating a house.
___ The official timeline has gone through many changes already, and will go through more, as future games come out.

Argument > But, Groose started the Gerudo.

* A fine theory, but nothing that is confirmed.
___ Groose wasn't the only red haired individual above the clouds. They are not stated to be related in any way, though only direct family connections are stated, such as siblings, or parents. There is also no indication of attraction between the two.
___ It is just as likely that Hylia knew the family line that would birth the next male, and sent her/them to Skyloft, along with the others, to avoid Ganondorf taking a hold of the body during the events we see in the game. Yet, Groose was still drawn in.

Argument > The castle! There's no castle in Skyward Sword, or the castle was destroyed/lifted in x game, or the castle is so close in Ocarina of Time.

* A decent argument, on the surface, until you simply pay attention to Tears of the Kingdom.
___ The castle in question, the one protecting Ganondorf's seal, is nowhere in the bounds of Skyward Sword, compared to the resting place of the Master Sword pedestal. The same goes for Ocarina of Time. When looking at the one castle we know for a fact is above the seal, it is a considerable distance from the pedestal.
___ There are two ways to think about the castle in Ocarina of Time.
_ Either the castle for OoT is a different castle, because it's not present in any other game, made obvious by how close it is to the pedestal. This would suggest that there are castle ruins in the Lost Woods, for BotW/TotK. We don't see any, though.
_ Alternately, there is my long standing portal theory, where I state that there is a portal in the Ocarina of Time's Temple of Time, that sends Link to the pedestal room. Refer to my Topography theory, linked above, for more details.
___ The castle only protects the seal. It is not the seal. It doesn't matter how many times the castle was destroyed, and rebuilt, or even lifted up; the seal is very deep. The best that any of these events could have done, would be to send shock waves down, fracturing it at most. In fact Vaati may have been the first to crack the seal, which is why we don't get another incarnation of Ganondorf until a decent time after. The smallest crack provides the smallest leak. With each attack that gets past the castle, the crack grows, allowing a larger leak, allowing for more resurrections, and eventually the full on Calamity.

this is honestly such a bloody good read

 

[GZ Zelda]

For the AT, we do know this for sure, being left in Ganondorf's forhead. Some even think that the Master Sword we see in WW wasn't even the origional, and that the weapon vanishe to the CT, allong with the spirit of the hero.

All we know for the CT, is that the last game didn't involve that particular blade. We also don't use the Master Sword in MC, but that doesn't mean that it was lost. It's a bit more dubious, with the DT. The last two games in that line were created before the Master Sword was conseved of. The Magic Sword may very well be the Master Sword, and many think it is. Though, I have theorized that the Magic Sword is an attempt to recreate the Master Sword (immagine if every solder in the Hyrulian army had a weapon like that). Ultimately, though, we only have one confirmed loss, and two possible losses, if we squint right. But, for both of these timelines, as you put it, Zelda would have known exactly where to look, for the Master Sword, when she was flung back in time.

I don't think simply finding the lost blade revives all of the lost information. It might bring some information back, depending on what Fi cares to reveal, and can reveal. The name of the blade is most suspect. Until the blade chooses a wielder, someone would have given the blade a different name, not knowing what it was called long ago.

Well we know where they were seen last: on Ganon's Tower in Ganondorf's forehead at the bottom of the sea in AT, in the Sacred Grove at the end of the DT and CT.

I don't think Bandit's separate AT Master Sword theory has much evidence other than the art change. In any event, there is no canon explanation for a new Master Sword before WW.

Zelda wouldn't have known where to look for the Master Sword: the Zonai would have, and if Ganondorf's Gerudo followers found the blade in a Ganondorf-shaped rock in the desert, the Zonai wouldn't have access to it (is the AT theory).

The Zora could have still evolved from the Parella. Like I said, evolution is a process of branching life, not replacing life. The structure of the systern requiers people who can survive in and out of the water. The only people we see who can naturally do that is the Zora.

But did Hylia just abandon the Zora in SS? I mean she ditched the Gorons so maybe lmao, but it just seems weird that they aren't anywhere to be found in SS.

We know the races present in the war: the Robots, the Parella, the Kikwi, the Gorons and the Mogma. Maybe the artist of this mural forgot three of them?

You are probably correct for the real world inspiration, for the name. But, looking at it cronologically, those enemies appear after the Gerudo people. And, as far as I have seen in real life, insects are named after existing things, not the other way around, and the same often goes for naming locations. This would mean that either the insect was named after the place or the people, with a heavier lean to the people. Then, there is also the Pirate hideout that is covered in the Gerudo colors and paterns.

But Gerudoman and Gerudoarm obviously aren't Gerudomen or Gerudo arms, they are named after another signifier. Most races are named after the region they inhabit which is named after : Indians, Germans, Americans (named after a river, the word for "people" and a cartographer. To have the German Butterfly is to have a butterfly from Germany, not a butterfly named after the German race; same with Gerudo Butterfly.

We never actually see Ganondorf reincarnate. The closest we see is FSA, where we do see a new person with that name, but he is changed when he gets ahold of the trident. Zelda even reffers to him as "ancient demon reborn" because of it. Ganondorf's forces seem th focuss on ressurrection, rather than waiting on the reincarnation cycle, like Hyrule does. Like I said in another place, it's not a problem, it's an explination.

An incarnation of Demise's hatred follows the bloodline and the spirit. It's just odd if this was already happening because of leaky-gloom TotK Ganondorf creating Ganondorf clones that sweared fealty to the king in OoT (maybe the king in OoT is just massively naive about history and Hyrule's biggest threat).

Also, are you saying that the Statue has decended by the point of Rauru's reign, or assended? There is no sign of the statue in the memories. Memory 12 even takes place where the statue is seen in BotW/TotK-present. Depending on which of the two senarios I just outlined, the statue may not have even been constructed yet, or it may already be above the clouds.

I'm saying that, after a cataclysmic flood, the Statue and its temple fell into a ravine. Maybe there was an entire kingdom that lived and died while folks were on Skyloft, or that there was an entire kingdom that lived and died before Skyloft was raised, but I know that there was a kingdom that lived and died before and during the flood.

As far as the multiple times the castle is disturbed, and I count MC, the castle is not the seal on Ganondorf itself, but a seal on a seal. Judging on the many broken seals we encounter on the way down to meet Mummydorf, the castle is more of a seal on multiple layers of seals, on the main central seal. When the castle is altered (MC), lifted (OoT), blown up (TP), and so on, the series of seals are likely fractured, allowing increasing amounts of power out.

The castle is only seriously damaged in OoT and BotW. It slightly crumbles in MC before being magically fixed, and it is entirely in tact in the TP credits. If the castle being entirely destroyed in OoT doesn't undo the seal, I don't know what does. We saw what happens with the damage from the Calamity, and TotK is explicit in the castle's purpose: to hold Rauru's seal. The castle being damaged is a major problem and would very quickly release Rauru's seal, and it is the most damaged in OoT. Maybe Rauru was lying about the castle being the seal?

If your Sealed Temple theory places it right next to Hyrule Castle in BotW, and the new Hyrule Castle was built to hold the seal, we would be able to see it in the past or future of Skyward Sword.

 

[Ryuu Kage Desu]

It's been a minute. New position taking up my time and energy.

Well we know where they were seen last: on Ganon's Tower in Ganondorf's forehead at the bottom of the sea in AT, in the Sacred Grove at the end of the DT and CT.

I don't think Bandit's separate AT Master Sword theory has much evidence other than the art change. In any event, there is no canon explanation for a new Master Sword before WW.

Zelda wouldn't have known where to look for the Master Sword: the Zonai would have, and if Ganondorf's Gerudo followers found the blade in a Ganondorf-shaped rock in the desert, the Zonai wouldn't have access to it (is the AT theory).

I'm not saying that she would have known where the Master Sword itself would be, not directly. I am saying that she knew exactly where the pedestal, and the Great Deku Tree would be. Not only would those be noteworthy to have recorded, or have likely come up in conversation about the blade, but the tree does have the ability to locate the sword.

But did Hylia just abandon the Zora in SS? I mean she ditched the Gorons so maybe lmao, but it just seems weird that they aren't anywhere to be found in SS.

We know the races present in the war: the Robots, the Parella, the Kikwi, the Gorons and the Mogma. Maybe the artist of this mural forgot three of them?

She only lifted the humans. The mural only shows the races present in that particular story. I don't think the murals are a full telling of the events before SS, but Impa providing Link addition information about who to trust. We don't see depictions of the entirety of Demise's forces, all of whom look more like Ghirahim than anything else we fight. We don't even see any depictions of the dragons, who would be very important for a through history. No, I think Impa only depicted the helpful races she knew Link would encounter.

But Gerudoman and Gerudoarm obviously aren't Gerudomen or Gerudo arms, they are named after another signifier. Most races are named after the region they inhabit which is named after : Indians, Germans, Americans (named after a river, the word for "people" and a cartographer. To have the German Butterfly is to have a butterfly from Germany, not a butterfly named after the German race; same with Gerudo Butterfly.

I'm not sure if you are agreeing with me, or disagreeing. In your example of the German Butterfly, the insect got (would get) it's name from the land, which in turn got it's name from the people; though they call themselves Deutsche, meaning "of the people," and their land Deutschland. This means that the butterfly you talk about is ultimately named after the people. From what I have found, most peoples name themselves first, then their land, then other things are named after that. And, in the cases were a people are named after their land, such as Americans, the name was provided from outside the group, though the land and the people still come before attaching the name to other things.
In other words, if the Gerudo people named themselves Gerudo, the people came first, then the land. If the Gerudo were named by an outside group, it is possible that the land was named before the people. But, in either case, the name of the insect would come after the land and/or people, yet we do not see any land carying the Gerudo name. If there's no land to pull the name from, the people are the natural origion.

An incarnation of Demise's hatred follows the bloodline and the spirit. It's just odd if this was already happening because of leaky-gloom TotK Ganondorf creating Ganondorf clones that sweared fealty to the king in OoT (maybe the king in OoT is just massively naive about history and Hyrule's biggest threat).

With that line of logic, one or more of the kings must be the idiot, seeing as many of them keep falling for the same tricks. Best I can offer, at the moment, is that the cercomstances would have been different enough to not trigger any read flags. Although, I can't say we are much better in real life. We seem to be able to make many of the same mistakes, every ten to thirty years. Two kings making the same mistake generations apart, reguardless of their order of succession, doesn't seem so far fetched in comparison.

I'm saying that, after a cataclysmic flood, the Statue and its temple fell into a ravine. Maybe there was an entire kingdom that lived and died while folks were on Skyloft, or that there was an entire kingdom that lived and died before Skyloft was raised, but I know that there was a kingdom that lived and died before and during the flood.

Perhapse.

The castle is only seriously damaged in OoT and BotW. It slightly crumbles in MC before being magically fixed, and it is entirely in tact in the TP credits. If the castle being entirely destroyed in OoT doesn't undo the seal, I don't know what does. We saw what happens with the damage from the Calamity, and TotK is explicit in the castle's purpose: to hold Rauru's seal. The castle being damaged is a major problem and would very quickly release Rauru's seal, and it is the most damaged in OoT. Maybe Rauru was lying about the castle being the seal?

The castle, from what I remember, was basiclly blown up, right before Link fights Ganondorf; but that's an asside to the real point. As you said, the castle was built as a protection on Rauru's seal. The castle wasn't Rauru's seal itself. The game is very clear that the two are seperate. Rauru created his seal before the castle was built, meaning that it would need to be it's own complete seal. Then, the castle was constructed to protect that. And, judging by the multiple busted seals we pass on our way down to Mummydorf, the castle wasn't the only seal created to protect Rauru's seal. The damage from the Calamity was only the straw that broke the cammel's back, and finally damaged the entier system enough to fail completely.

If your Sealed Temple theory places it right next to Hyrule Castle in BotW, and the new Hyrule Castle was built to hold the seal, we would be able to see it in the past or future of Skyward Sword.

Actually, I place the sealed temple in the current Lost Woods, keeping the pedistal in the same place. That's quite a distance from the castle, and being able to see it also assumes that construction would have been finished before the events of SS.

-------------------------------------------------

this is honestly such a bloody good read

Thank you. I appreciate it.