Spoiler Skyward Sword Ending Discussion Thread (OoT and SS Spoilers)

[Terminus]

Remember, the key difference between endings like OoT and SS is that the changes that happened were not significantly different, because the changes that were made in the past complement events that happened in the relative future, and match their outcomes. Observe the list:
• Demise is sealed and decays, Demise is destroyed in the future
• The Master Sword is removed from the future, brought to the past, and left in the past such that it exists in the future and sufficient time has passed for Demise’s spirit to die
• Fi no longer exists in the future, because she went back into the Master Sword in the past. This does not change the events of Skyward Sword, because they have already been achieved in the time period in which Link will return to.
• The Statue of the Goddess is in the Sealed Grounds in the future because that is where it was before Link went through the Door of Time; events that occurred in the future before Link went through the Door of Time cannot be undone.

In conclusion, we can determine that there is in fact no time paradox at the end of Skyward Sword, because it operates under B-theory.
Feel free to post questions and comments.

Well, that jus killed 80% of the SS theory threads.

 

[muggleprince]

i dont really care that much about the timeline its the just all the games are fun to play,yeah from time to time i think about it but i just love playing the zelda games

 

[felipe970421]

To me the events of SS are easier to get if you adopt the perspective of a third observer, which doesn't travel in time at all but sees all the events from the beggining to the end, basically it would go like this:

1) SS Intro
2) Goddess sword created, skyloft sent skyward
3) Demise imprisoned in the sealed grounds
4) Impa leaves through the gate of time
5) Hylia and Impa arrive from the future and go to the temple of Hylia
6) Some hero appears out of nowhere, speaks with hylia, and leaves with the true master sword, leaving a sleeping goddess behind
7) Random fabulous demon comes from the gate of time, with the goddess' body and starts reviving Demise
8) Hero comes with a kickass sword and slays Demise, imprisoning him in the master sword
9) Hero leaves the sword there, note that there are two swords now, a goddess sword in Skyloft and a master sword in the temple of Hylia
10) Hero disappears, leaving with the goddess Hylia and leaving a sleeping Hylia behind
11) Centuries later, Hero is born
12) starting events of SS
13) Impa and Hylia flee through the door of time in Lanayru's temple of time
14) Forging of the MS
15) Hero enters gate of time, returns with the true MS [from Link's perspective, he went to (6) and returned]
16) Hero gets the triforce, and kills demise forever
17) Hylia awakes and is abducted by Ghirahim into the portal, hero follows them [From Zelda's, Link's, and Ghirahim's perspective, they skipped to (7), (8) and (9) and then returned]
18) hero and Hylia return, hero is swordless
19) Hero sees the master sword, other events of the ending take place

Some parts, particularly (10), may seem weird, but it all makes sense.

Noteworthy:

From (8) on, there is always a master sword in the world
and from (13) until (16), there are two master swords present
before (13), we had the goddess sword, created in (2)
If the master sword sealed demise in (8), then he was sealed into it until (15), by that logic, the sealing spike is the master sword
Proof that Link doesn't kill Demise in (8), but rather seals him, is that f he died, Zelda would have awakened immediately, instead she awakens in (16), when the triforce kills Demise
From link' (and therefore the player's) perspective, first goes (11), (12), (13), (14), then (15), (6), then (15) again, then goes (16) and (17), then goes (8) and (9), finnaly (18) and (19)
From Zelda perspective, it's (12), (13), (6), (17), (7), (8), (9), (18) and (19)
Impa's perspective is a bit tricky, it's (4), (12), (13), (5), (6), (7), (8), (9), (10), Impa gives the bracelet in (10), and then waits centuries in the temple until (11) and the rest of the events unfold linearly for her
Ghirahim's perspective, it's from (1) all the way until (17) (of course assuming he was during the events of the intro, maybe he wasn't born until later), he goes to (7), (8), and dies (presumably)

Again, it's difficult to get but it all makes sense, it's the best way I could explain it, perhaps Locke could provide a better way to say it

 

[Locke]

To me the events of SS are easier to get if you adopt the perspective of a third observer, which doesn't travel in time at all but sees all the events from the beggining to the end, basically it would go like this:

[...]

From (8) on, there is always a master sword in the world
and from (13) until (16), there are two master swords present
before (13), we had the goddess sword, created in (2)
If the master sword sealed demise in (8), then he was sealed into it until (15), by that logic, the sealing spike is the master sword
Proof that Link doesn't kill Demise in (8), but rather seals him, is that f he died, Zelda would have awakened immediately, instead she awakens in (16), when the triforce kills Demise
From link' (and therefore the player's) perspective, first goes (11), (12), (13), (14), then (15), (6), then (15) again, then goes (16) and (17), then goes (8) and (9), finnaly (18) and (19)
From Zelda perspective, it's (12), (13), (6), (17), (7), (8), (9), (18) and (19)
Impa's perspective is a bit tricky, it's (4), (12), (13), (5), (6), (7), (8), (9), (10), Impa gives the bracelet in (10), and then waits centuries in the temple until (11) and the rest of the events unfold linearly for her
Ghirahim's perspective, it's from (1) all the way until (17) (of course assuming he was during the events of the intro, maybe he wasn't born until later), he goes to (7), (8), and dies (presumably)

Again, it's difficult to get but it all makes sense, it's the best way I could explain it, perhaps Locke could provide a better way to say it

I hate the theory that the Sealing Spike is the MS, but I have to admit, it's the only way to make any sort of sense out of Ghirahim's meddling in the past. I'm still bothered by how worried future/present-Impa was when Ghirahim went back in time. If it follows B-Theory as you describe, then she should have already experienced Link defeating Demise. Ironically, OoT's contradiction involving the Magic Beans is in a way propogated to SS through the Tree of Life. Going by B-Theory, it should have been there the whole time. As a direct contradiction, Impa's bracelet is there the whole time. They obviously prioritized convenience over coherence.

 

[felipe970421]

I hate the theory that the Sealing Spike is the MS, but I have to admit, it's the only way to make any sort of sense out of Ghirahim's meddling in the past. I'm still bothered by how worried future/present-Impa was when Ghirahim went back in time. If it follows B-Theory as you describe, then she should have already experienced Link defeating Demise. Ironically, OoT's contradiction involving the Magic Beans is in a way propogated to SS through the Tree of Life. Going by B-Theory, it should have been there the whole time. As a direct contradiction, Impa's bracelet is there the whole time. They obviously prioritized convenience over coherence.

I'm not a fan of the master sword = sealing spike theory but the more I think about it in B-theory style, the more sense it makes to me and the more necessary it seems, all this of course assumes three things: that the tree of life is just gameplay and story segregation, that Fi lied about Demise being truly dead, and that Impa discretely moves the strings in order to keep time stable, assuming this three things (note the word here: assuming), Impa faked the fear and all the time was working towards making time stable.

Thinking Skyward Sword as A-theory just plain doesn't make sense to me, there are far more inconsistencies from my point of view.

 

[DaveAndersmith]

time-shift stones. The idea is that the stone will cover a certain area in a force field that transports anyone who steps in it back in time, but can return to the present whenever they prefer by stepping out of the force field. It would reanimate robots and monsters who happened to be within the bounds of the field.

My question is, if it reanimates the robots and suchthen it obviously changes living things too, right?Then why doesn't it disintegrate Link when he steps in, seeing as he wasn't in existence at the time the monsters and robots were alive?

 

[Locke]

time-shift stones. The idea is that the stone will cover a certain area in a force field that transports anyone who steps in it back in time, but can return to the present whenever they prefer by stepping out of the force field. It would reanimate robots and monsters who happened to be within the bounds of the field.

My question is, if it reanimates the robots and suchthen it obviously changes living things too, right?Then why doesn't it disintegrate Link when he steps in, seeing as he wasn't in existence at the time the monsters and robots were alive?

I believe they work a bit differently from how Fullmetal described. Rather than sending you to the past, they revert everything in the field besides you into a past state. As an example of some evidence that points to this conclusion (the whole argument would take an article-length explanation), you can open/unlock doors in the present in the Sandship, and they'll still be open/unlocked when you activate the Timeshift Stone, even though they weren't open/unlocked before. You didn't travel to a past time, when they would still be locked - you essentially de-aged them, so they're exactly how they were in the present, but newer.

As for why Link isn't affected, that's mostly because it's necessary for gameplay. Somehow the Timeshift Stone doesn't affect the person who activates it (or any sword spirits they're carrying around). Look up "hand-waving" on TVTropes.

 

[felipe970421]

I believe they work a bit differently from how Fullmetal described. Rather than sending you to the past, they revert everything in the field besides you into a past state. As an example of some evidence that points to this conclusion (the whole argument would take an article-length explanation), you can open/unlock doors in the present in the Sandship, and they'll still be open/unlocked when you activate the Timeshift Stone, even though they weren't open/unlocked before. You didn't travel to a past time, when they would still be locked - you essentially de-aged them, so they're exactly how they were in the present, but newer.

As for why Link isn't affected, that's mostly because it's necessary for gameplay. Somehow the Timeshift Stone doesn't affect the person who activates it (or any sword spirits they're carrying around). Look up "hand-waving" on TVTropes.

Alternate explanation, since Link didn't exist in that period, there is nothing to revert him to