Malon
DBA DBA DBABA GF#G DB EF#E (If you know, you know)
These are hilariously the same song, but reversed. Lost woods is FAB FAB and the song of healing is BAF BAF.
Majora's Mask Lost woods/song of healing
- Thread starter Malon
- Start date
I can discuss everything about this, seeing as how I am a musician and I have a deep understanding of music theory.
First, I want to stress that just because two pieces of music use the same notes does not mean they are the same composition, because then we can basically invalidate the whole concept of relative keys and invalidate the concept of modal music.
On top of that that has some.... unfortunate implications. For example, if we both compose a piece in the key of D Minor, let's say, are they really the same piece of music even if they use the same notes?
No, we wouldn't, just like a painting that uses the same color or a similar subject matter isn't the same piece, so too with music. We have to think less black and white and think more nuanced when it comes to music.
So, for that reason, we need to think of these as two separate pieces, because by all intents and purposes, they are, and really, the whole of OoT and MM's music is fascinatingly more intricate because there's a limitation on the number of notes.
A classic songwriter's and composer's saying is that limitation breeds creativity. Counterintuitively, sometimes, when making music, if you impose limits on yourself, you end up creating much more powerful and memorable music that way.
Why do so many songs use the verse-chorus-verse-chorus-bridge-chorus structure? Because it sounds good, and we musicians, songwriters, and composers are forever slaves to what sounds the best, and what the music requires.
Thus, why I think OoT and MM had some of the most memorable and deceptively intricate music in the Zelda series.
The notes in question that we're limited to are:
In fact, the music written and composed for OoT and MM uses a lot of modal mixture, as does Zelda music as a whole, generally speaking.
When analyzing music, we have to take the whole piece in context, not just the notes used (the key signature), or just the harmony, but the entirety of the piece, so we'll have to analyze both.
THE LOST WOODS THEME:
Now, many people not quite learned in modes, might look at the melody of the Lost Woods Theme and think it's in the Lydian Mode. After all, the notes F, A, and B that make the main melody do outline parts of an Fmaj7(#11) chord, and when it comes to the modes in terms of tone, Lydian is considered to be the brightest sounding because of the #4 interval intrinsic to its sound.
But this is why analyzing just a melody can mess with us if we ignore the underlying harmony and don't consider the rest of the piece.
The note we start on is F natural, and it finishes on B natural, which is a tritone. When we listen to the accompanying chords, those being F and C respectively, some interesting stuff occurs because of the fact that Koji Kondo deceives us into thinking we're in F Lydian.
That means that tritone, the B natural, isn't functioning as a diminished fifth, but an augmented fourth, and in context with these chords, that gives both chords an Fmaj7(#11) sorta sound on the F chord, and a Cmaj7 sound on the C chord. I like to show this to people who are still learning that one note can hold a whole lot of power.
Now, as the piece progresses, we use basically a typical F Lydian modal progression, utilizing a vi-II-V-iii progression, which, in the mode of F Lydian, that's Dm, G, C, and A.
It mostly continues this until the very end where some modal interchange happens, where we have a Vsus4/iii, and a V/iii.
These are called secondary dominants in this specific case, and you can think of them as "create this chord/in this temporary key."
It adds a bit of interest to an otherwise straightforward F Lydian modal progression.
But, when analyzing music, I tend to use Occam's Razor, and tend to go for the analysis that makes less use of such things, and it's far better to think of this piece as being in the key of C Major, and not as a modal piece.
If we think of harmony of the piece in C Major, then we get much a less complicated analysis.
We start on F, outlining fragments of an Fmaj7(#11) chord, with the next chords being Dm, G, C, and A.
That's a IV-ii-V-I-vi progression, no secondary dominants required!
THE SONG OF HEALING:
If you've ever wondered why we consider minor keys to be completely different keys, even if they have the same notes, this is a perfect example as to why.
While the Lost Woods Theme is in C Major, the Song of Healing is in the relative minor key, A Minor, and if you can't tell, the somber, sad, melancholic, dark, and contemplative feeling of the piece should be a clue.
While C Major and A Minor are relative keys, meaning they share the same notes, they aren't the same key. The Tonic chords they resolve to are fundamentally different, and you wouldn't find any music nerd, musician, or musicologist that would say that a major triad and a minor triad are the same thing, because they aren't.
This is why context matters when composing, writing, playing, and analyzing music.
The piece's melody is playing B, A, and F, sure, but the underlying chords and harmony changes the context of that melody.
The two chords being played in the main B, A, F motive are an F and an E chord, with those being the bVI and V chords of the key of A Minor.
Now, consider the notes as they relate to those chords, the B, A, and F notes are fleshing out the harmony a bit more, with B being the #4 as it relates to F, A being the major third as it relates to F, and F being the root of the chord.
The melody then goes E-D-E, with it only changing to the V chord on the final E note, meaning E and D have to be thought of as they relate to F and E.
As it relates to F, E natural is the major seventh, and D is the major sixth, and the final E note lands when the E chord lands, and E is the root of the chord, with us pedaling on a B note before we repeat the section again. B is the perfect fifth as it relates to E.
So far, we've outlined a bVI-V chord movement in a minor key, and the rest of the piece progresses.
The chords in the next section are Bbmaj7, Am7, Gm7, Fmaj7, Bø, and E.
Those are, as they relate to the key of A Minor: bII-i-bvii-bVI-ii°-V.
The bII chord is a true Neapolitan chord as it resolves to the Tonic, which isn't unheard of generally speaking, we then have a non-diatonic chord in the bvii chord, and it finishes in a classic jazz chord progression.... kinda.
See, a classic jazz chord progression in a minor key is the bVI-ii°-V-i. In fact, the 2-5-1 as it's called is basically the Swiss Army Knife of jazz harmony, and is one of the building blocks in jazz music, as it's all over the place, but once we reach the Dominant, the E chord in this case, we'd expect to hear a resolution to the Tonic, which is Am in this case.
But we don't, we get a Deceptive Cadence, and a Deceptive Cadence is when the Dominant chord doesn't resolve to the Tonic, but it resolves to a different tonic function chord, most commonly, the one built on the sixth scale degree, which is F in this case.
Minor keys typically sound dark, brooding, melancholic, sad, or somber, so this piece being in a minor key really sells the tragedy of these beings who's soul you heal with this song. It's also quite a beautiful melody. Dark and somber can be peaceful and beautiful, and by not relieving all the tension that we'd love to hear, instead deceiving us by resolving to a different chord, all that tension is still there.
Some of it gets resolved, but there's still a lingering sense of foreboding that never truly gets resolved. And it being designed to loop, only reinforces the context. You can only help so many people in so many hours of the day.
Hope this gives some wider context and expands on this idea!
Cheers!
FOOTNOTE:
If the Roman numerals are confusing, they're just shorthand for chords, the general idea is that you want to indicate the intervals in the chord by indicating what the third degree is, and what the fifth degree is in shorthand instead of writing it out all the time.
They're numbered one through seven.
First, I want to stress that just because two pieces of music use the same notes does not mean they are the same composition, because then we can basically invalidate the whole concept of relative keys and invalidate the concept of modal music.
On top of that that has some.... unfortunate implications. For example, if we both compose a piece in the key of D Minor, let's say, are they really the same piece of music even if they use the same notes?
No, we wouldn't, just like a painting that uses the same color or a similar subject matter isn't the same piece, so too with music. We have to think less black and white and think more nuanced when it comes to music.
So, for that reason, we need to think of these as two separate pieces, because by all intents and purposes, they are, and really, the whole of OoT and MM's music is fascinatingly more intricate because there's a limitation on the number of notes.
A classic songwriter's and composer's saying is that limitation breeds creativity. Counterintuitively, sometimes, when making music, if you impose limits on yourself, you end up creating much more powerful and memorable music that way.
Why do so many songs use the verse-chorus-verse-chorus-bridge-chorus structure? Because it sounds good, and we musicians, songwriters, and composers are forever slaves to what sounds the best, and what the music requires.
Thus, why I think OoT and MM had some of the most memorable and deceptively intricate music in the Zelda series.
The notes in question that we're limited to are:
- D = the A button.
- F = the C down button.
- A = the C right button.
- B = the C left button.
- D = the C up button.
In fact, the music written and composed for OoT and MM uses a lot of modal mixture, as does Zelda music as a whole, generally speaking.
When analyzing music, we have to take the whole piece in context, not just the notes used (the key signature), or just the harmony, but the entirety of the piece, so we'll have to analyze both.
THE LOST WOODS THEME:
Now, many people not quite learned in modes, might look at the melody of the Lost Woods Theme and think it's in the Lydian Mode. After all, the notes F, A, and B that make the main melody do outline parts of an Fmaj7(#11) chord, and when it comes to the modes in terms of tone, Lydian is considered to be the brightest sounding because of the #4 interval intrinsic to its sound.
But this is why analyzing just a melody can mess with us if we ignore the underlying harmony and don't consider the rest of the piece.
The note we start on is F natural, and it finishes on B natural, which is a tritone. When we listen to the accompanying chords, those being F and C respectively, some interesting stuff occurs because of the fact that Koji Kondo deceives us into thinking we're in F Lydian.
That means that tritone, the B natural, isn't functioning as a diminished fifth, but an augmented fourth, and in context with these chords, that gives both chords an Fmaj7(#11) sorta sound on the F chord, and a Cmaj7 sound on the C chord. I like to show this to people who are still learning that one note can hold a whole lot of power.
Now, as the piece progresses, we use basically a typical F Lydian modal progression, utilizing a vi-II-V-iii progression, which, in the mode of F Lydian, that's Dm, G, C, and A.
It mostly continues this until the very end where some modal interchange happens, where we have a Vsus4/iii, and a V/iii.
These are called secondary dominants in this specific case, and you can think of them as "create this chord/in this temporary key."
It adds a bit of interest to an otherwise straightforward F Lydian modal progression.
But, when analyzing music, I tend to use Occam's Razor, and tend to go for the analysis that makes less use of such things, and it's far better to think of this piece as being in the key of C Major, and not as a modal piece.
If we think of harmony of the piece in C Major, then we get much a less complicated analysis.
We start on F, outlining fragments of an Fmaj7(#11) chord, with the next chords being Dm, G, C, and A.
That's a IV-ii-V-I-vi progression, no secondary dominants required!
THE SONG OF HEALING:
If you've ever wondered why we consider minor keys to be completely different keys, even if they have the same notes, this is a perfect example as to why.
While the Lost Woods Theme is in C Major, the Song of Healing is in the relative minor key, A Minor, and if you can't tell, the somber, sad, melancholic, dark, and contemplative feeling of the piece should be a clue.
While C Major and A Minor are relative keys, meaning they share the same notes, they aren't the same key. The Tonic chords they resolve to are fundamentally different, and you wouldn't find any music nerd, musician, or musicologist that would say that a major triad and a minor triad are the same thing, because they aren't.
This is why context matters when composing, writing, playing, and analyzing music.
The piece's melody is playing B, A, and F, sure, but the underlying chords and harmony changes the context of that melody.
The two chords being played in the main B, A, F motive are an F and an E chord, with those being the bVI and V chords of the key of A Minor.
Now, consider the notes as they relate to those chords, the B, A, and F notes are fleshing out the harmony a bit more, with B being the #4 as it relates to F, A being the major third as it relates to F, and F being the root of the chord.
The melody then goes E-D-E, with it only changing to the V chord on the final E note, meaning E and D have to be thought of as they relate to F and E.
As it relates to F, E natural is the major seventh, and D is the major sixth, and the final E note lands when the E chord lands, and E is the root of the chord, with us pedaling on a B note before we repeat the section again. B is the perfect fifth as it relates to E.
So far, we've outlined a bVI-V chord movement in a minor key, and the rest of the piece progresses.
The chords in the next section are Bbmaj7, Am7, Gm7, Fmaj7, Bø, and E.
Those are, as they relate to the key of A Minor: bII-i-bvii-bVI-ii°-V.
The bII chord is a true Neapolitan chord as it resolves to the Tonic, which isn't unheard of generally speaking, we then have a non-diatonic chord in the bvii chord, and it finishes in a classic jazz chord progression.... kinda.
See, a classic jazz chord progression in a minor key is the bVI-ii°-V-i. In fact, the 2-5-1 as it's called is basically the Swiss Army Knife of jazz harmony, and is one of the building blocks in jazz music, as it's all over the place, but once we reach the Dominant, the E chord in this case, we'd expect to hear a resolution to the Tonic, which is Am in this case.
But we don't, we get a Deceptive Cadence, and a Deceptive Cadence is when the Dominant chord doesn't resolve to the Tonic, but it resolves to a different tonic function chord, most commonly, the one built on the sixth scale degree, which is F in this case.
Minor keys typically sound dark, brooding, melancholic, sad, or somber, so this piece being in a minor key really sells the tragedy of these beings who's soul you heal with this song. It's also quite a beautiful melody. Dark and somber can be peaceful and beautiful, and by not relieving all the tension that we'd love to hear, instead deceiving us by resolving to a different chord, all that tension is still there.
Some of it gets resolved, but there's still a lingering sense of foreboding that never truly gets resolved. And it being designed to loop, only reinforces the context. You can only help so many people in so many hours of the day.
Hope this gives some wider context and expands on this idea!
Cheers!
FOOTNOTE:
If the Roman numerals are confusing, they're just shorthand for chords, the general idea is that you want to indicate the intervals in the chord by indicating what the third degree is, and what the fifth degree is in shorthand instead of writing it out all the time.
They're numbered one through seven.
- If it's just a capital Roman numeral, that's a major triad.
- If it's lower case, that's a minor triad.
- If it's lower case with a degree symbol, that's a diminished triad.
- If it's upper case with a plus sign, that's an augmented triad.
- If a chord's root is altered to what's considered diatonic, it's indicated with an accidental in front of the Roman numeral.
- The circle with a line through it is just a shorthand for a half-diminished seventh chord, or a min7b5 chord. Just simpler to use the symbol instead of typing that out all the time.
Last edited:
Malon
DBA DBA DBABA GF#G DB EF#E (If you know, you know)
I can discuss everything about this, seeing as how I am a musician and I have a deep understanding of music theory.
First, I want to stress that just because two pieces of music use the same notes does not mean they are the same composition, because then we can basically invalidate the whole concept of relative keys and invalidate the concept of modal music.
On top of that that has some.... unfortunate implications. For example, if we both compose a piece in the key of D Minor, let's say, are they really the same piece of music even if they use the same notes?
No, we wouldn't, just like a painting that uses the same color or a similar subject matter isn't the same piece, so too with music. We have to think less black and white and think more nuanced when it comes to music.
So, for that reason, we need to think of these as two separate pieces, because by all intents and purposes, they are, and really, the whole of OoT and MM's music is fascinatingly more intricate because there's a limitation on the number of notes.
A classic songwriter's and composer's saying is that limitation breeds creativity. Counterintuitively, sometimes, when making music, if you impose limits on yourself, you end up creating much more powerful and memorable music that way.
Why do so many songs use the verse-chorus-verse-chorus-bridge-chorus structure? Because it sounds good, and we musicians, songwriters, and composers are forever slaves to what sounds the best, and what the music requires.
Thus, why I think OoT and MM had some of the most memorable and deceptively intricate music in the Zelda series.
The notes in question that we're limited to are:
These choices of notes outlines a Dm6 chord, and gives us a lot of freedom to explore different modes. With modal mixture, we can make these five notes feel and say a whole lotta things!
- D = the A button.
- F = the C down button.
- A = the C right button.
- B = the C left button.
- D = the C up button.
In fact, the music written and composed for OoT and MM uses a lot of modal mixture, as does Zelda music as a whole, generally speaking.
When analyzing music, we have to take the whole piece in context, not just the notes used (the key signature), or just the harmony, but the entirety of the piece, so we'll have to analyze both.
THE LOST WOODS THEME:
Now, many people not quite learned in modes, might look at the melody of the Lost Woods Theme and think it's in the Lydian Mode. After all, the notes F, A, and B that make the main melody do outline parts of an Fmaj7(#11) chord, and when it comes to the modes in terms of tone, Lydian is considered to be the brightest sounding because of the #4 interval intrinsic to its sound.
But this is why analyzing just a melody can mess with us if we ignore the underlying harmony and don't consider the rest of the piece.
The note we start on is F natural, and it finishes on B natural, which is a tritone. When we listen to the accompanying chords, those being F and C respectively, some interesting stuff occurs because of the fact that Koji Kondo deceives us into thinking we're in F Lydian.
That means that tritone, the B natural, isn't functioning as a diminished fifth, but an augmented fourth, and in context with these chords, that gives both chords an Fmaj7(#11) sorta sound on the F chord, and a Cmaj7 sound on the C chord. I like to show this to people who are still learning that one note can a whole lot of power.
Now, as the piece progresses, we use basically a typical F Lydian modal progression, utilizing a vi-II-V-iii progression, which, in the mode of F Lydian, that's Dm, G, C, and A.
It mostly continues this until the very end where some modal interchange happens, where we have a Vsus4/iii, and a V/iii.
These are called secondary dominants in this specific case, and you can think of them as "create this chord/in this temporary key."
It adds a bit of interest to an otherwise straightforward F Lydian modal progression.
But, when analyzing music, I tend to use Occam's Razor, and tend to go for the analysis that makes less use of such things, and it's far better to think of this piece as being in the key of C Major, and not as a modal piece.
If we think of harmony of the piece in C Major, then we get much less complicated analysis.
We start on F, outlining fragments of an Fmaj7(#11) chord, with the next chords being Dm, G, C, and A.
That's a IV-ii-V-I-vi progression, no secondary dominants required!
THE SONG OF HEALING:
If you've ever wondered why we consider minor keys to be completely different keys, even if they have the same notes, this is a perfect example as to why.
While the Lost Woods Theme is in C Major, the Song of Healing is in the relative minor key, A Minor, and if you can't tell, the somber, sad, melancholic, dark, and contemplative feeling of the piece should be a clue.
While C Major and A Minor are relative keys, meaning they share the same notes, they aren't the same key. The Tonic chords they resolve to are fundamentally different, and you wouldn't find any music nerd, musician, or musicologist that would say that a major triad and a minor triad are the same thing, because they aren't.
This is why context matters when composing, writing, playing, and analyzing music.
The piece's melody is playing B, A, and F, sure, but the underlying chords and harmony changes the context of that melody.
The two chords being played in the main B, A, F motive are an F and an E chord, with those being the bVI and V chords of the key of A Minor.
Now, consider the notes as they relate to those chords, the B, A, and F chords are fleshing out the harmony a bit more, with B being the #4 as it relates to F, A being the major third as it relates to F, and F being the root of the chord.
The melody then goes E-D-E, with it only changing to the V chord on the final E note, meaning E and D have to be thought of as they relate to F and E.
As it relates to F, E natural is the major seventh, and D is the major sixth, and the final E note lands when the E chord lands, and E is the root of the chord, with us pedaling on a B note before we repeat the section again. B is the perfect fifth as it relates to E.
So far, we've outlined a bVI-V chord movement in a minor key, and the rest of the piece progresses.
The chords in the next section are Bbmaj7, Am7, Gm7, Fmaj7, Bø, and E.
Those are, as they relate to the key of A Minor: bII-i-bvii-bVI-ii°-V.
The bII chord is a true Neapolitan chord as it resolves to the Tonic, which isn't unheard of generally speaking, we then have a non-diatonic chord in the bvii chord, and it finishes in a classic jazz chord progression.... kinda.
See, a classic jazz chord progression in a minor key is the bVI-ii°-V-i. In fact, the 2-5-1 as it's called is basically the Swiss Army Knife of jazz harmony, and is one of the building blocks in jazz music, as it's all over the place, but once we reach the Dominant, the E chord in this case, we'd expect to hear a resolution to the Tonic, which is Am in this case.
But we don't, we get a Deceptive Cadence, and a Deceptive Cadence is when the Dominant chord doesn't resolve to the Tonic, but it resolves to a different tonic function chord, most commonly, the one built on the sixth scale degree, which is F in this case.
Minor keys typically sound dark, brooding, melancholic, sad, or somber, so this piece being in a minor key really sells the tragedy of these beings who's soul you heal with this song. It's also quite a beautiful melody. Dark and somber can be peaceful and beautiful, and by not relieving all the tension that we'd love to hear, instead deceiving us by resolving to a different chord, all that tension is still there.
Some of it gets resolved, but there's still a lingering sense of foreboding that never truly gets resolved. And it being designed to loop, only reinforces the context. You can only help so many people in so many hours of the day.
Hope this gives some wider context and expands on this idea!
Cheers!
FOOTNOTE:
If the Roman numerals are confusing, they're just shorthand for chords, the general idea is that you want to indicate the intervals in the chord by indicating what the third degree is, and what the fifth degree is in shorthand instead of writing it out all the time.
They're numbered one through seven.
Hope that gives some clarity!
- If it's just a capital Roman numeral, that's a major triad.
- If it's lower case, that's a minor triad.
- If it's lower case with a degree symbol, that's a diminished triad.
- If it's upper case with a plus sign, that's an augmented triad.
- If a chord's root is altered to what's considered diatonic, it's indicated with an accidental in front of the Roman numeral.
- The circle with a line through it is just a shorthand for a half-diminished seventh chord, or a min7b5 chord. Just simpler to use the symbol instead of typing that out all the time.
I don't think I can properly reply to this with my level of impressed-ness.
I've actually analyzed quite a few soundtracks of video games, before.I don't think I can properly reply to this with my level of impressed-ness.
It's quite fun!
There's more that I could analyze about Zelda music, like the Milk Bar using dominant 7th chords in a specific way other than as the primary Dominant function chord, how Zelda music gets creepy, why BotW has the ambient soundtrack it does, how the Hyrule Castle Theme in ALttP is in the Sonata-Allegro Form, how OoT and MM can teach us about modal mixture, and so on.