How did Ganon get sealed in Lorule?

[Moblinking5000]

Ok, I just looked at the timeline, and you're right, they are two different descriptions, but it's the same event. Except it does say "revive," so it's the same Ganon, but revived.
View attachment 51337View attachment 51338
Also, this is the ZE canonical events (I mean, I don't consider ZE canonical, but let's play with it). It is the soul of Ganon, not the body. But we see the body, and we DON'T see the soul, as Yuga becomes the soul in the Ganon body.

You're right. We do see the body. And Ganon also has the ToP, despite him losing it when he dies in TP and Zelda 1. There's a disclaimer in ZE stating that creative liberties were taken with parts of the book, but we also know that the updated timeline placements are canon according to Zelda Portal, the official Japanese Zelda site, among other official recognition of the timeline. If something contradicts the games or creator intent, then it can be ignored, but aspects that do not contradict the games should be considered canon or atleast highly considered, IMO.

Good find!

Also, I stand by my word. Ganon's fate =/= Ganondorf's fate. I'm closing my opinion on that.

They have the same fate as they're both the same person. That's like saying Vaati's floating eyeball form is a different character from his Minish form or his human form, or that Wolf Link in TP is a separate character from Link, etc.

Also, why close your mind off to altering your beliefs based on new information?

 

[ASAP_Slash]

You're right. We do see the body. And Ganon also has the ToP, despite him losing it when he dies in TP and Zelda 1. There's a disclaimer in ZE stating that creative liberties were taken with parts of the book, but we also know that the updated timeline placements are canon according to Zelda Portal, the official Japanese Zelda site, among other official recognition of the timeline. If something contradicts the games or creator intent, then it can be ignored, but aspects that do not contradict the games should be considered canon or atleast highly considered, IMO.



They have the same fate as they're both the same person. That's like saying Vaati's floating eyeball form is a different character from his Minish form or his human form, or that Wolf Link in TP is a separate character from Link, etc.

Also, why close your mind off to altering your beliefs based on new information?

This is not new information and certainly not information that disproves my theory. Even details I ignored from you and Mikey hold true. Ganon's castle is Ganon's castle because Ganondorf transforms into Ganon during the seven year gap. This is true in both ZE and HH and has to happen for the DT split. So it makes sense that the castle we play in is Ganon's castle, not Ganondorf's castle.

Also yes, Link most definitely kills Ganon at the end of the OoT Game. Zelda even says, and I quote, "Use the master sword. Destroy Ganon with the sacred sword". Despite Ganon having ultimate power, the master sword can destroy him because it has Ganon's ultimate power sealed within it, Demise' residual consciousness. No other sword can do this, not even the Foursword, despite its ability to seal Ganon in FSA. In fact the only other weapon that has similar power to the master sword is the silver arrows which can exterminate Ganon.

Although, in the beginning of WW it does say that the Hero of Time sealed him with the master sword and it does show Ganon. So I'm wrong, right? Well, once again, nomenclature. That does happen, but only in ZE. However HH says that Ganondorf is sealed and that's what we see in the game after we watch Link Destroy Ganon.

@MichaelMyersMoblin Korl never meets Ganondorf until the end of the game when he wishes on the Triforce at which point he does refer to Ganondorf as Ganondorf. Until that point Korl only knows of Ganon when he busted out in the prologue of WW.

@GZ Zelda even the mini Ganon/Ganondorf timeline holds true to my theory. Not only do the writers write out both names instead of one, but all games shown have both Ganon and Ganondorf existing a part from each other. Save for OoT where they split, TP where young Link's interception prevents a split, and FSA when Ganondorf reincarnates.

With all that said, I do believe Ganon is Ganondorf. However Ganondorf always comes first. Killing Ganon in the future does not mean Ganondorf is stopped in the past. That's literally the whole plot device used to conceive the three splits in the timeline. Furthermore they can fuse their soul, body, and spirit with others which changes their title such as when Ganondorf fuses with Zelda to create Puppet Zelda. Therefor, nomenclature is important and necessary because it provides reference to what time and place is being observed. I will argue this to my deathbed.

Also, shameless edit but I'm not going to create another post that goes off topic from the thread.

 

[Spiritual Mask Salesman]

Ok, so I thought this over. Ganondorf is basically a daimaō, a chief supernatural demonic force in Japanese myth and fiction. Usually in myth daimaō are killed in battle, but they don't truly die, they are "sealed". A daimaō, even a lesser demon like a maō, cannot truly die, their essence still exists somewhere unless they are completely destroyed by unique circumstances (Demise being asorbed into the Master Sword, for example).

It's kind of like Okami. In the backstory of the game Orochi is a daimaō that was defeated in battle, he should be dead with that considered, but he is just sealed away and is released at the start of the game.

As for ThecWind Waker's backstory, I think he just found portals between dimensions to break his seal. The seal was temporary anyway though, Zelda says it will only hold him "for a time". He had the Triforce of Power still, to boot.

WW states he created a form to manifest on the Great Sea, but doing that made him lose his connection to Hyrule. Pulling the Master Sword allowed him to be able to return to Hyrule finally.

 

[Moblinking5000]

Ok, so I thought this over. Ganondorf is basically a daimaō, a chief supernatural demonic force in Japanese myth and fiction. Usually in myth daimaō are killed in battle, but they don't truly die, they are "sealed". A daimaō, even a lesser demon like a maō, cannot truly die, their essence still exists somewhere unless they are completely destroyed by unique circumstances (Demise being asorbed into the Master Sword, for example).

It's kind of like Okami. In the backstory of the game Orochi is a daimaō that was defeated in battle, he should be dead with that considered, but he is just sealed away and is released at the start of the game.

As for ThecWind Waker's backstory, I think he just found portals between dimensions to break his seal. The seal was temporary anyway though, Zelda says it will only hold him "for a time". He had the Triforce of Power still, to boot.

WW states he created a form to manifest on the Great Sea, but doing that made him lose his connection to Hyrule. Pulling the Master Sword allowed him to be able to return to Hyrule finally.

I can see where this idea comes from considering that alot of Japanese fiction uses it, and I think there's places in the series where this applies(like Vaati between TMC and the FSBS and Malladus in the BS of ST), but not always, as Demon Kings don't always seem to die: a problem with this idea being widespread in Zelda is that Ganon holds onto the Triforce of Power at the end of both OoT and the backstory of ALBW, and yet the ToP leaves him when he dies at the end of TP and Zelda 1.--despite him not having a body any of those four examples, according to you. Why the inconsistency if this theory is the type of sealing/death mechanic the series always uses? And why is it that we see that Ganon doesn't even die in OoT when stabbed in the head, with him just flailing and screaming out in agony afterwards, which Zelda uses as her cue to summon the Awakened Sages(probably before he snaps out it due to her firmly telling them to hurry, which shouldn't be possible for him if dead)? And why do we see FSA Ganon being sucked into the FS, body and all, if he dies at the end of that game? Same for Vaati at the end of FS.

I think the whole ''body is destroyed, spirit/essence is sealed away'' is a TYPE of sealing in the series, but I think that non-lethal sealings are common, too, perhaps because the means are not right to destroy them(OoT Link doesn't have Silver Arrows and Ganon has the ToP within him, for example).

 

[Spiritual Mask Salesman]

I think the whole ''body is destroyed, spirit/essence is sealed away'' is a TYPE of sealing in the series, but I think that non-lethal sealings are common, too, perhaps because the means are not right to destroy them(OoT Link doesn't have Silver Arrows and Ganon has the ToP within him, for example).

I agree. I'm not saying Ganondorf is killed everytime, non-lethal sealings definitely happen too. But my point is I think even when he does die, he isn't truly dead, and won't be dead until his death is made permanent by some means; like a Triforce wish to eradicate him for good, or his essence being asorbed by the Master Sword so that the power to repel evil completely erodes his consciousness.

I think the fact that when he is revived, that he is the same person, proves that normal death doesn't have to be permanent for a demon. In the sense, death is merely a seal for a demon too until they are revived, which breaks the seal of death. A revival ritual is a breaking of the seal that is death, metaphorically. There is probably some dimension reserved as a sort of limbo where the spirits of demons go after a normal death. They are either stuck there forever, or for a demon like Ganondorf who has many followers, is revived at some point.

I think the framework is acceptable, and I kind of want to dig deeper into it perhaps for a thread of its own where I editorialize.

 

[Moblinking5000]

I think the framework is acceptable, and I kind of want to dig deeper into it perhaps for a thread of its own where I editorialize.

Go for it! I'd be interested in reading that.

I am a bit stumped when it comes to the CT, though; Ganon dies at the end of TP, but not in a way that would suggest a permanent death{unlike say TWW in the AT where he was eradicated by the Triforce), and yet, he's reincarnated as a new Ganon in FSA. Why do you think FSA is the only game to feature a different Ganon when all other games feature the same Ganon unsealed and/or revived? IMO, it makes me woinder if TP is really the last time Ganon I is around on the CT. Depending on how much time there is between TP and FSA, there might be room for Nintendo to make a game featuring a revival of Ganon I(preferably a successful one so he doesn't go completely mad like in the DT; I'd like to have another game with Ganondorf I where he's not nuts, as we haven't had that since TP), with him maybe being killed once and for all via a Triforce Wish or something like that.

 

[GZ Zelda]

I am a bit stumped when it comes to the CT, though; Ganon dies at the end of TP, but not in a way that would suggest a permanent death{unlike say TWW in the AT where he was eradicated by the Triforce),

This is actually reversed. Ganondorf gets stabbed through the chest in TP, a much more final death than getting turned to stone and sunk to the bottom of an ocean. If the ocean drains (which seems pretty likely to have happened considering BotW's canonical placement at the end of all timelines), all someone has to do is pull the sword out of his head and Ganondorf is back up and running presumably.

The only time Demise's curse actually comes into play is in FSA, but I do think Ganondorf dies at the end of TP (except assuming we can consider the BotW2 trailer canon, he is actually sealed below Hyrule Castle with his chest wound still pouring Malice). We could definitely see a game where this happens, I've always found it weird that TP never got the obligatory sequel, except it would probably take place in lands south of Hyrule cuz that's where Link ran off to at the end of the game, so I'm not sure how Ganon would play into that.

Obligatory "the linear timeline solves all of this.

 

[Moblinking5000]

This is actually reversed. Ganondorf gets stabbed through the chest in TP, a much more final death than getting turned to stone and sunk to the bottom of an ocean. If the ocean drains (which seems pretty likely to have happened considering BotW's canonical placement at the end of all timelines), all someone has to do is pull the sword out of his head and Ganondorf is back up and running presumably.

Daphnes wishes on the Triforce for Ganon to perish along with Hyrule. It's not just the MS. The Master Sword draining Ganon's life force is just how the wish is fulfilled, like how a rock falling ontop of the Imprisoned is how the Triforce wish Link made in SS to destroy him was fulfilled in the present. We know that Triforce wishes permanently eradicate Demon Kings.

Also, BotW is NOT canonically at the end of all three. Nintendo has said that it's a the end of one of the timelines, but they're not saying which one it's in(btw it's totally in the DT long after Zelda 2, but that's irrelevant to the point here).

And even if the ocean were to drain, Old Hyrule would still be gone. Daphnes specifically wishes to ERASE Hyrule in the Japanese version of The Wind Waker.

Also, even ignoring that it's not the official timeline, your linear timeline is quite frankly nonsensical. How does the Master Sword end up back in Hyrule after being left at the bottom of the ocean in TWW? Why is it that FSA Ganon has a backstory as a desert nomad that no one in his tribe likes with him being more or less a lone wolf, and why does his backstory in ALttP suddenly change to be more like OoT Ganon(king/leader of thieves who enters the Sacred Realm and claims the Triforce)? Why are ALttP and TP so far removed from OoT when they're supposed to be sequels to it? How do you explain the fact that the KoRL says that Link left Hyrule by travelling the flows of time in the JP version of TWW? How do you explain the fact that OoT's ending shows the AT and CT coexisting with each other? How does Old Hyrule come back after being erased in TWW's ending? Why are the Oracles placed between ALttP/LA when the Link in the Oracles is a demonstrably different character from ALttP/LA Link due to things like Oracles Link having a Triforce birthmark, not knowing Zelda, and having to be tested by the Triforce?

 

[GZ Zelda]

Daphnes wishes on the Triforce for Ganon to perish along with Hyrule. It's not just the MS. The Master Sword draining Ganon's life force is just how the wish is fulfilled, like how a rock falling ontop of the Imprisoned is how the Triforce wish Link made in SS to destroy him was fulfilled in the present. We know that Triforce wishes permanently eradicate Demon Kings.

Except they don't, Demise's hatred is reincarnated over and over and over through the Ganon vessel.

Also, BotW is NOT canonically at the end of all three. Nintendo has said that it's a the end of one of the timelines, but they're not saying which one it's in(btw it's totally in the DT long after Zelda 2, but that's irrelevant to the point here).

I mean Aonuma said that it's "up to the player's imagination," which like, c'mon Aonuma. I think that the only way Koroks or Rito are ever evolving is with a massive event like the flood but idk.

And even if the ocean were to drain, Old Hyrule would still be gone. Daphnes specifically wishes to ERASE Hyrule in the Japanese version of The Wind Waker.

Except New Hyrule has essentially the same traditions and culture as Old Hyrule except w/ trains. So his wish didn't really work. Especially since the ZE timeline says that Spirit Tracks takes place in Hyrule. (also wtf is malladus, this might also deserve a new thread, but literally wtf is he).

Back to the topic of the thread, there are three words happening here: resurrection, revival, reincarnation. (Ima talk about the DT cuz that's the one with ALBW and I'm still trying to figure out wtf is happening in it). In OoT, Ganondorf is the reincarnation of Demise's hatred. That's the same thing as the Imprisoning War...I think? So Ganon is shot with Silver Arrows in ALttP, killing him. Ganon is then revived? resurrected? by Twinrova using their body as a vessel for his hatred....but which one is it? AND THEN Ganon is revived? resurrected? by Yuga, opening a portal? to wherever Ganon's body? soul? was stored and then possessing it. AND THEN Ganon is...awakened...in Zelda 1, The ZE timeline says he is "awakened," that he "returns." How? Idfk. And then his resurrection fails in Zelda 2, but somehow it happens later and then BotW happens? Or BotW is a reincarnation of Ganon, much like FSA? None of this makes any sense and I'm angry about it.

We can go into the linear timeline if you want...I'm gonna do it. I'm doing it.

Spoiler: Linear Timeline Explanation

How does the Master Sword end up back in Hyrule after being left at the bottom of the ocean in TWW?

The ocean drains slowly over time as the Koroks create trees which leads to less ocean. This is why Hyrule expands as time goes on.

Why is it that FSA Ganon has a backstory as a desert nomad that no one in his tribe likes with him being more or less a lone wolf, and why does his backstory in ALttP suddenly change to be more like OoT Ganon(king/leader of thieves who enters the Sacred Realm and claims the Triforce)?

FSA Ganon is a lone wolf; he's the same one from WW who had no band of thieves. But in FSA, we see how the Deku and the Mages begin to worship him as their leader, as the King of Darkness, after he finds the Trident. And in ALttP, after getting unsealed from the Four Sword (which is the reason he has the Four Sword in his pyramid), he is able to more effectively gather a group of thieves.

Why are ALttP and TP so far removed from OoT when they're supposed to be sequels to it?

ALttP is only a sequel to Link dying in OoT. Which, canonically, doesn't happen in the game. We played the game that happened, all the way through. That never happened in the game that we played. Also the TP backstory doesn't line up with OoT at all.

"He was the leader of a band of
thieves who invaded Hyrule in the
hopes of establishing dominion
over the Sacred Realm.
He was known as a demon thief, an
evil-magic wielder renowned for
his ruthlessness..."

This isn't OoT. This is ALttP. In OoT, there was a civil war that I don't think had anything to do with the Sacred Realm. If it did, I don't know why Ganondorf wasn't executed the moment he stepped into the castle. Then there was Ganondorf's invasion, which would not have happened in the CT, except here it says that it already did happen.

How do you explain the fact that the KoRL says that Link left Hyrule by travelling the flows of time in the JP version of TWW?

He did. He went back in time, and then went into a near-infinite time loop in Termina. That's pretty "travelling the flows of time" to me. Except KoRL would not have known that he did that, unless he knew the fate of OoT Link. Which he couldn't possibly, it's in a different timeline.

How do you explain the fact that OoT's ending shows the AT and CT coexisting with each other?

I don't think this is what is happening here. The ending of OoT shows two coexisting Links, not two coexisting timelines. Time travel doesn't fundamentally alter the basic presuppositions of the timeline that one is time-traveling back to. The logic doesn't check out with these two being different timelines.

How does Old Hyrule come back after being erased in TWW's ending?

Because New Hyrule carries on Old Hyrule's traditions and the Koroks, shown to be attempting to create new forests to get rid of the ocean, is successful.

Why are the Oracles placed between ALttP/LA when the Link in the Oracles is a demonstrably different character from ALttP/LA Link due to things like Oracles Link having a Triforce birthmark, not knowing Zelda, and having to be tested by the Triforce?

He doesn't have the birthmark in OoS, and in the linear timeline, OoS takes place after OoA. He only gets the birthmark after he touches the Triforce, that's why it isn't in ALttP.

Zelda is a princess who's meeting tons of people all the time, she hasn't seen Link in, like, 5 years, he's probably more grown-up, and also she does recognize him. "You're Link right? I knew it at first glance."

How does a Link who doesn't know Princess Zelda get access to the Triforce, kept guarded in Hyrule Castle after Ganon used it to almost invade Hyrule? He doesn't, the Link we see already knows Zelda and the royal family, and has already proved his courage in ALttP, which is why the Triforce tests him in the first place.

 

[ASAP_Slash]

Back to the topic of the thread, there are three words happening here: resurrection, revival, reincarnation. (Ima talk about the DT cuz that's the one with ALBW and I'm still trying to figure out wtf is happening in it). In OoT, Ganondorf is the reincarnation of Demise's hatred. That's the same thing as the Imprisoning War...I think? So Ganon is shot with Silver Arrows in ALttP, killing him. Ganon is then revived? resurrected? by Twinrova using their body as a vessel for his hatred....but which one is it? AND THEN Ganon is revived? resurrected? by Yuga, opening a portal? to wherever Ganon's body? soul? was stored and then possessing it. AND THEN Ganon is...awakened...in Zelda 1, The ZE timeline says he is "awakened," that he "returns." How? Idfk. And then his resurrection fails in Zelda 2, but somehow it happens later and then BotW happens? Or BotW is a reincarnation of Ganon, much like FSA? None of this makes any sense and I'm angry about it.

When Ganon is resurrected by Twinrova and, allegedly by Zelda, Link stops his resurrection with the Noble Sword, or the wooden sword. The En. says that the noble sword's upgrade into the master sword isn't actually the master sword rather it has power like the master sword. No master sword, no destruction of Ganon/Ganondorf. So I think one of two things happened...

1.) The noble sword has sealing powers like the Foursword and the Goddess Blade. So, if the Noble Sword does have power like the master sword then it might have sealed Ganon so that it could inevitably become a blade of evil's bane the same way the Goddess Blade becomes a BoEB.

2.) Allegedly Ganon's resurrection is stopped as told to Link by Zelda, but it sure doesn't seem that way in the Linked timeline. So that may not have fully been Zelda. As we've seen in twilight princess, Ganondorf can fuse himself with her to turn her into Puppet Zelda. So Zelda might have sealed Ganon inside herself. If the Kingdom grew with a Zelda that had Ganon sealed within her then that might explain the origins of Hilda if she was Zelda's descendant.

I think it's more likely to be #2 as you don't have to acquire the noble sword to beat the game, and no matter how you beat Ganon you see the same ending.

 

[Moblinking5000]

Except they don't, Demise's hatred is reincarnated over and over and over through the Ganon vessel.

Demise and Ganondorf being eradicated at the end of SS and TWW doesn't mean that there won't be more incarnations of hatred. It won't be them, though.

I mean Aonuma said that it's "up to the player's imagination," which like, c'mon Aonuma. I think that the only way Koroks or Rito are ever evolving is with a massive event like the flood but idk.

Actually, Hidemaro Fujibayashi said that, not Aonuma:


Eiji Aonuma: “Well of course it’s at the very end. But, I get what you’re asking, it’s which timeline is it the end of?”

Hidemaro Fujibayashi: “That’s… up to the player’s imagination, isn’t it?”

While Hidemaro was involved in directing BotW and some other games in the series, Aonuma is the series producer, so I'd take what he says over Hidemaro, and he says that there IS a placement that you can figure out, even dropping a hint that pretty much confirms that BotW is on the DT without confirming it:

''I wouldn’t say that it obviously fits into any one part of the timeline, but if you play the game, you’ll be able to work out where it fits. As you probably saw in the trailer, the most recent trailer, there’s a woman’s voice, and she says: “The history of the royal family of Hyrule is also the history of the Calamity Ganon.” And as you know, the Zelda series, up until now, is a history of repeated attacks by Ganon. So, there’s food for thought there. I don’t want to say anything more as I’d like players to work it out for themselves, to play the game and see what they think.''

And saying that the Koroks and Rito can only exist in the era of the Great Flood is no more than conjecture to support your theory. The Deku Tree says that the Koroks willingly transformed:

Once upon a time, long ago, the Koroks took on human forms, but when they came to live on the sea, they took these shapes."

And we see a picture of them in ALBW, too.

The Rito in BotW are nothing like the species in the TWW from a biological or cultural perspective. The Rito children in TWW lack wings, wheras the ones in BotW have them, they look more like straight up birds than the ones in TWW, Valoo doesn't appear to have anything to do with their culture, etc. The only evidence for them being the same is the fact that they're called Rito and are bird people, which considering that we have two different types of fish people called Zora doesn't amount to much.

Except New Hyrule has essentially the same traditions and culture as Old Hyrule except w/ trains.

Really? So the fact that Triforce symbolism in regards to the emblem of Hyrule is nowhere to be seen and replaced with the symbol of the spirits instead, no Master Sword, etc. equals, ''the same culture''?

So his wish didn't really work. Especially since the ZE timeline says that Spirit Tracks takes place in Hyrule.

It does, but not in HIS Hyrule(old Hyrule).

(also wtf is malladus, this might also deserve a new thread, but literally wtf is he)

...he's the main villain of Spirit Tracks. How can you talk about ST when you don't even know who the main villain is? I'm perplexed.

Back to the topic of the thread, there are three words happening here: resurrection, revival, reincarnation. (Ima talk about the DT cuz that's the one with ALBW and I'm still trying to figure out wtf is happening in it). In OoT, Ganondorf is the reincarnation of Demise's hatred. That's the same thing as the Imprisoning War...I think? So Ganon is shot with Silver Arrows in ALttP, killing him. Ganon is then revived? resurrected? by Twinrova using their body as a vessel for his hatred....but which one is it? AND THEN Ganon is revived? resurrected? by Yuga, opening a portal? to wherever Ganon's body? soul? was stored and then possessing it. AND THEN Ganon is...awakened...in Zelda 1, The ZE timeline says he is "awakened," that he "returns." How? Idfk. And then his resurrection fails in Zelda 2, but somehow it happens later and then BotW happens? Or BotW is a reincarnation of Ganon, much like FSA? None of this makes any sense and I'm angry about it.

The IW actually happens after OoT's DT ending. Revived/ressurected are both synonyms, so that difference is irrelevant. While they're commonly used to mean bring back from the dead, they're also used to refer to unsealings in the series as well, and have non-lethal definitions in the dictionary to boot.

And no, BotW Ganon is not a new one. MW/CaC says that Ganondorf, the same man that became the Great Calamity, was born in the same era as Nabooru.

The ocean drains slowly over time as the Koroks create trees which leads to less ocean. This is why Hyrule expands as time goes on

So, Daphne's wish meant nothing in the long run? Kind of weird for the game to make a big deal about it, if that's the case.

FSA Ganon is a lone wolf; he's the same one from WW who had no band of thieves. But in FSA, we see how the Deku and the Mages begin to worship him as their leader, as the King of Darkness, after he finds the Trident. And in ALttP, after getting unsealed from the Four Sword (which is the reason he has the Four Sword in his pyramid), he is able to more effectively gather a group of thieves.

TWW Ganondorf is OoT Ganondorf. Well, every Ganon is OoT Ganondorf aside from the one in FSA, but TWW is the most explicit about the Ganon in that game being the same one as OoT Ganon. FSA Ganondorf, on the other hand, has a completely different backstory with him being hated by his own people and ****, and the Gerudo in FSA say they witnessed him grow up, which meant that he was born in that era. So FSA Ganon can't be TWW Ganon.

Also, him escaping the FS is fanfic until we get a new game saying otherwise.

ALttP is only a sequel to Link dying in OoT. Which, canonically, doesn't happen in the game. We played the game that happened, all the way through. That never happened in the game that we played

Even before the existence of the Downfall Timeline was revealed, we had interviews from when OoT was released that said that it dealt with the backstory from ALttP.

there was a civil war that I don't think had anything to do with the Sacred Realm. If it did, I don't know why Ganondorf wasn't executed the moment he stepped into the castle. Then there was Ganondorf's invasion, which would not have happened in the CT, except here it says that it already did happen.

We don't know exactly how or if Ganondorf was involved in the Unification War.

He did. He went back in time, and then went into a near-infinite time loop in Termina. That's pretty "travelling the flows of time" to me. Except KoRL would not have known that he did that, unless he knew the fate of OoT Link. Which he couldn't possibly, it's in a different timeline.

If I recall, the Hylian in the opening says the same thing as the KoRL, but I may be mistaken. And in a single timeline, he would not leave Hyrule by travelling through time, but from a certain perspective, that is true in the split timeline model, as he did leave the AT version of Hyrule at the end. He didn't start going through the time loop in Termina until he already left Hyrule.

I don't think this is what is happening here. The ending of OoT shows two coexisting Links, not two coexisting timelines.

And yet, we only see one Link in the ending.

He doesn't have the birthmark in OoS, and in the linear timeline, OoS takes place after OoA. He only gets the birthmark after he touches the Triforce, that's why it isn't in ALttP.

It's specifically called a birthmark, though.

Zelda is a princess who's meeting tons of people all the time, she hasn't seen Link in, like, 5 years, he's probably more grown-up, and also she does recognize him. "You're Link right? I knew it at first glance."

There's been other green tunic heroes named Link by the time the Oracles happen. She would be able to recognize him easily. Also, she said that she knew ''at first glance'' implying that it's the first time she's ever met him.

How does a Link who doesn't know Princess Zelda get access to the Triforce, kept guarded in Hyrule Castle after Ganon used it to almost invade Hyrule? He doesn't, the Link we see already knows Zelda and the royal family, and has already proved his courage in ALttP, which is why the Triforce tests him in the first place.

He wouldn't be the first Link to enter the castle without permission(hello, OoT Link). Also, if he's already proven himself, then why in the world does the Triforce feel the need to test him?

 

[GZ Zelda]

Demise and Ganondorf being eradicated at the end of SS and TWW doesn't mean that there won't be more incarnations of hatred. It won't be them, though.

This is what I was talking about with Malladus. Is Malladus a Demise demon (the same can be posed to Vaati), or is Malladus just a separate demon that was already messing with New Hyrule? Because, if so, the wish didn't really eradicate one of the central tenants of Hyrule.

''I wouldn’t say that it obviously fits into any one part of the timeline, but if you play the game, you’ll be able to work out where it fits. As you probably saw in the trailer, the most recent trailer, there’s a woman’s voice, and she says: “The history of the royal family of Hyrule is also the history of the Calamity Ganon.” And as you know, the Zelda series, up until now, is a history of repeated attacks by Ganon. So, there’s food for thought there. I don’t want to say anything more as I’d like players to work it out for themselves, to play the game and see what they think.''

I actually agree that, in the splitist timeline, BotW is on the downfall branch. But I also think that 5 attacks (OoT, ALttP, ALBW, Z1, BotW backstory) is comparable to the 3 from the CT (TP (because OoT never happens in the CT), FSA, BotW), especially because the Ganondorf in BotW2's trailer is unlike any we've seen in the DT, and identical to the one we've seen in the CT (and the AT).

Really? So the fact that Triforce symbolism in regards to the emblem of Hyrule is nowhere to be seen and replaced with the symbol of the spirits instead, no Master Sword, etc. equals, ''the same culture''?

They have a Hyrule Castle, a Princess Zelda, a small forest village, an evil demon, 7 "sages," a Link. Hyrule is very much not dead. In fact, the symbol of the spirits, identical to Force Gems found within PH and ST, is identical to Force Gems found in FSA, suggesting that this New Hyrule uses the same force as the Old Hyrule.

It does, but not in HIS Hyrule(old Hyrule).

But his wish was to eradicate Hyrule. He didn't. He eradicated an already entirely flooded Old Hyrule. The people in WW's backstory also eradicated Hyrule by covering it in water, and they didn't even use the Triforce.

...he's the main villain of Spirit Tracks. How can you talk about ST when you don't even know who the main villain is? I'm perplexed.

PERPLEXED YOU SAY? No, I mean like what is he? He's a demon king, from where? The Dark Realm, what is that? A realm of darkness with a portal on an island outside Aboda Village. How'd that get there? Is he connected to Demise? His eyes look like Majora's. His coloring is teal, so he isn't Malice, is he Spirit Energy? I want to know his deal. Also wtf are the Lokomo, why do we never see them again, how did all this New Hyrule stuff happen and where is it in the other timelines?

The IW actually happens after OoT's DT ending. Revived/ressurected are both synonyms, so that difference is irrelevant. While they're commonly used to mean bring back from the dead, they're also used to refer to unsealings in the series as well, and have non-lethal definitions in the dictionary to boot.

And no, BotW Ganon is not a new one. MW/CaC says that Ganondorf, the same man that became the Great Calamity, was born in the same era as Nabooru.

Isn't the IW when the sages seal Ganon in the Sacred Realm after he gets all three pieces of the Triforce? And they retconned it so that they weren't trying to find the Master Sword, it's just that the hero Link had already died?

What hero's blood was used to revive Ganon? BotW Ganon being the same Ganon requires another game.

So, Daphne's wish meant nothing in the long run? Kind of weird for the game to make a big deal about it, if that's the case.

From ZE:

Triforce wishes don't last in the series, that's another level of tragedy.

TWW Ganondorf is OoT Ganondorf. Well, every Ganon is OoT Ganondorf aside from the one in FSA, but TWW is the most explicit about the Ganon in that game being the same one as OoT Ganon. FSA Ganondorf, on the other hand, has a completely different backstory with him being hated by his own people and ****, and the Gerudo in FSA say they witnessed him grow up, which meant that he was born in that era. So FSA Ganon can't be TWW Ganon.

Also, him escaping the FS is fanfic until we get a new game saying otherwise.

"Once every 100 years, a special child is born unto my people. That child is destined to be the mighty guardian of the Gerudo and the desert. But this child, its heart grew twisted with every passing year. The child became a man who hungered for power at any price." This is just referring to OoT.

"Yes, this Ganondorf you speak of is a member of the Gerudo. But his intent is unknown to me. He has flouted the law and fled for the pyramid. To reach the pyramid, one must first pass the trial of the Desert Temple. The villain Ganondorf will no doubt draw his last breath failing this trial." Ganondorf is a member of the Gerudo, as he doesn't become a beast in WW, and so he'd be subject to the same laws as the rest of the Gerudo after his unsealing.

"Ganon... I've heard that name before. No, wait... It was Ganondorf... But, no... That man was of the Gerudo tribe. I can't imagine these creatures worshipping some desert nomad. There's a Gerudo village in the desert." Same thing, it's the same Ganondorf from WW.

He has the FS in ALttP, in his pyramid. He made a palace for it. I don't know how he got it without releasing Vaati, and that opens another can of worms. I think it makes sense that he was unsealed from the Four Sword and that's why he has it. That doesn't seem that fanfic-y to me.

Even before the existence of the Downfall Timeline was revealed, we had interviews from when OoT was released that said that it dealt with the backstory from ALttP.

Do we care about developer intention? OoT's developers intended it to be a prequel to ALttP, FSA's developers intended it to be a prequel to ALttP, the Oracle developers clearly intended for the games to a prequel to LA cuz they put a boat and three seagulls in the ending, and that's the entire theme of LA, WW's developers intended it to be a sequel and so did TP's developers. Also, FSA's developers definitely intended it to be a sequel to FS. So which developers do we give the right to have their intention manifested? We have to go by the in-game evidence. And the TP backstory doesn't align with the OoT backstory. The ALttP backstory also doesn't align with the OoT backstory. They require significant alterations, such as the Hero of Time DYING and Ganondorf waging war to break into the Sacred Realm before Link meets Zelda in the courtyard.

We don't know what exactly how or if Ganondorf was involved in the Unification War.

exactly. If he wasn't, TP is invalid. If he was, the war would have to be over access to the Sacred Realm (as said in TP), and there's no way they are letting him peacefully surrender if his intention is to find the Triforce and eradicate everybody. Unless the King of Hyrule is unbelievably stupid, which he is for not believing the prophetic dreams of his daughter but for some reason trusting a forest child with a triangle on his hand, which up to this point has no Triforce significance?

If I recall, the Hylian in the opening says the same thing as the KoRL, but I may be mistaken. And in a single timeline, he would not leave Hyrule by travelling through time, but from a certain perspective, that is true in the split timeline model, as he did leave the AT version of Hyrule at the end. He didn't start going through the time loop in Termina until he already left Hyrule.

He "left Hyrule" when he went to Termina to travel through time. That's what the King is talking about.

And yet, we only see one Link in the ending.

Cuz the other one is doing OoT, probably saving Ruto or whatever.

It's specifically called a birthmark, though.

Admittedly, I'm not well-read on the Mark of the Hero. From my understanding, it's appeared in five games: OoS, OoA, TP, Z2, SS. In SS, Link gets it after Farore's Flame? In OoA and OoS, he starts his adventure in the respective lands with it. In TP, he has it from the beginning? In Z2, he gets it after Z1, on his 16th birthday. So it doesn't seem like a birthmark. Also "birthmark" doesn't appear in either game.

There's been other green tunic heroes named Link by the time the Oracles happen. She would be able to recognize him easily. Also, she said that she knew ''at first glance'' implying that it's the first time she's ever met him.

Idk I'm pretty sure she just hasn't seen him in a while and she's highly formal.

He wouldn't be the first Link to enter the castle without permission(hello, OoT Link). Also, if he's already proven himself, then why in the world does the Triforce feel the need to test him?

He broke into Hyrule Castle, not just into the courtyard, but into the ROOM with the Triforce?! The Triforce tests him because otherwise Twinrova would have revived Ganon. And the Triforce doesn't want that to happen. So they picked a trusted hero who had saved the day once before and sent him on two new quests.

Except I don't know why the Triforce is talking or doing this as it doesn't match any other behavior. So maybe the Triforce is depressed.

 

[ASAP_Slash]

The IW actually happens after OoT's DT ending. Revived/ressurected are both synonyms, so that difference is irrelevant. While they're commonly used to mean bring back from the dead, they're also used to refer to unsealings in the series as well, and have non-lethal definitions in the dictionary to boot.

No, just stop. If the writers wanted there to be no difference between a resurrection, a revival, or even a return then they would have used one word for those events. It's the same reason they take the effort to distinguish Ganon and Ganondorf. It's the same reason they distinguish his title of kingship. It's the same reason why ZE and HH are fundamentally different timelines. Not only is this consistent in both timelines, it's consistent in every game. You disrespecting nomenclature, yet continuing to use dev quotes and JAP translations is bad theory crafting. Respect the nomenclature.

 

[Moblinking5000]

This is what I was talking about with Malladus. Is Malladus a Demise demon (the same can be posed to Vaati), or is Malladus just a separate demon that was already messing with New Hyrule? Because, if so, the wish didn't really eradicate one of the central tenants of Hyrule.

Malladus is probably an incarnation of hatred,like Ganon and Vaati, yes, especially if Demise's JP speech is any indication.

I actually agree that, in the splitist timeline, BotW is on the downfall branch. But I also think that 5 attacks (OoT, ALttP, ALBW, Z1, BotW backstory) is comparable to the 3 from the CT (TP (because OoT never happens in the CT), FSA, BotW), especially because the Ganondorf in BotW2's trailer is unlike any we've seen in the DT, and identical to the one we've seen in the CT (and the AT).

FSA is a different Ganon, so it probably doesn't count since it's a different guy. BotW most likely isn't on the CT. And Ganondorf's body has round ears, which we've only seen him have in OoT, and CaC mentions when the Gerudo had round ears long ago. We've never seen Ganon's human form with pointy ears at any point in the DT. You're also forgetting the Oracles and the backstory of ALBW.

They have a Hyrule Castle, a Princess Zelda, a small forest village, an evil demon, 7 "sages," a Link. Hyrule is very much not dead. In fact, the symbol of the spirits, identical to Force Gems found within PH and ST, is identical to Force Gems found in FSA, suggesting that this New Hyrule uses the same force as the Old Hyrule.

Difference being that Force Gems are not used in the Emblem of Hyrule in FSA.

But his wish was to eradicate Hyrule. He didn't. He eradicated an already entirely flooded Old Hyrule. The people in WW's backstory also eradicated Hyrule by covering it in water, and they didn't even use the Triforce.

Old Hyrule was the only Hyrule Kingdom that existed at the time of TWW.

PERPLEXED YOU SAY? No, I mean like what is he? He's a demon king, from where? The Dark Realm, what is that? A realm of darkness with a portal on an island outside Aboda Village. How'd that get there? Is he connected to Demise? His eyes look like Majora's. His coloring is teal, so he isn't Malice, is he Spirit Energy? I want to know his deal. Also wtf are the Lokomo, why do we never see them again, how did all this New Hyrule stuff happen and where is it in the other timelines?

My apologies; I misunderstood the meaning of your point, there. Maybe another game will reveal more about Malladus's backstory if they decide to revive him and make him the new main villain of New Hyrule or something.

Isn't the IW when the sages seal Ganon in the Sacred Realm after he gets all three pieces of the Triforce? And they retconned it so that they weren't trying to find the Master Sword, it's just that the hero Link had already died?

The IW is after OoT. People start wandering into the SR, and they start becoming monsters. The seal starts to weaken and said monsters start to pour out, and the Seven Sages of that period have to seal it again to stop Ganon's army.

What hero's blood was used to revive Ganon? BotW Ganon being the same Ganon requires another game.

By that logic, Zelda 1 Ganon requires another game. Ganon being revived is a big part of the Downfall Timeline.

Triforce wishes don't last in the series, that's another level of tragedy.

Daphnes is already dead in TWW. He's a spirit according to HH, and there's ingame evidence for that as well(the fact that he can just appear at will when Ganon tries to touch the full Triforce in TWW).

"Once every 100 years, a special child is born unto my people. That child is destined to be the mighty guardian of the Gerudo and the desert. But this child, its heart grew twisted with every passing year. The child became a man who hungered for power at any price." This is just referring to OoT.

"Yes, this Ganondorf you speak of is a member of the Gerudo. But his intent is unknown to me. He has flouted the law and fled for the pyramid. To reach the pyramid, one must first pass the trial of the Desert Temple. The villain Ganondorf will no doubt draw his last breath failing this trial." Ganondorf is a member of the Gerudo, as he doesn't become a beast in WW, and so he'd be subject to the same laws as the rest of the Gerudo after his unsealing.

"Ganon... I've heard that name before. No, wait... It was Ganondorf... But, no... That man was of the Gerudo tribe. I can't imagine these creatures worshipping some desert nomad. There's a Gerudo village in the desert." Same thing, it's the same Ganondorf from WW.

He has the FS in ALttP, in his pyramid. He made a palace for it. I don't know how he got it without releasing Vaati, and that opens another can of worms. I think it makes sense that he was unsealed from the Four Sword and that's why he has it. That doesn't seem that fanfic-y to me.

In those quotes you mention, he's literally referred to as ''some desert nomad'' and his intent is considered unknown. Does that sound like the same evil king that lead to the ruin of a kingdom to you?

Do we care about developer intention? OoT's developers intended it to be a prequel to ALttP, FSA's developers intended it to be a prequel to ALttP,

People say that, but they base it on the fact that FSA had sages and the Master Sword as unused content, which are elements in many Zelda games.

the Oracle developers clearly intended for the games to a prequel to LA cuz they put a boat and three seagulls in the ending,

MM Link ends the game on a horse, and Oracles Link begins his game on a horse. Guess the Oracles are after MM, then.

exactly. If he wasn't, TP is invalid. If he was, the war would have to be over access to the Sacred Realm (as said in TP), and there's no way they are letting him peacefully surrender if his intention is to find the Triforce and eradicate everybody. Unless the King of Hyrule is unbelievably stupid, which he is for not believing the prophetic dreams of his daughter but for some reason trusting a forest child with a triangle on his hand, which up to this point has no Triforce significance?

What do you mean, no significance? It's the mark of the Triforce!

Cuz the other one is doing OoT, probably saving Ruto or whatever.

We see that Ganon is already defeated though, hence the celebration at Lon Lon Ranch. We also see that this is seperate from the Child Era, as after the celebration, we see that Link is a child again and so is Zelda.

Also "birthmark" doesn't appear in either game.

It does in the JP.

アラ あなた 左手に 「Triangle」のアザが あるのね Oh, you have a triangle birthmark on your left hand.

So they picked a trusted hero who had saved the day once before and sent him on two new quests.

「大地と時空のことわり」を知り その勇気をもって　邪悪なるものを しりぞけたあなたは トライフォースのみちびきにより でんせつの勇者となったのです
You have the courage of knowing the “Reasons of Earth and Space-Time” and have driven away the evil one. You have become the legendary hero who is guided by the Triforce.

He doesn't become a hero until the end of the game.

Also, the Triforce spoke in ALttP as well.

If the writers wanted there to be no difference between a resurrection, a revival, or even a return then they would have used one word for those events.

The reemergence of Calamity Ganon in BotW is referred to as both a return and resurrection, for example, and the description of Memory #15 says that he ''awakens''. Are you really going to try and argue that's a different thing as well?

It's the same reason they take the effort to distinguish Ganon and Ganondorf

Yes, for the sake of simplicity. The manual for ALttP says that ''Ganon'' was used as his common name before he ever transformed, and Daphnes interchangeably uses both names in TWW, and Zant refers to him as Ganon in TP. They're both one in the same, and Ganon is literally just a nickname for Ganondorf in universe.

It's the same reason they distinguish his title of kingship. Not only is this consistent in both timelines, it's consistent in every game. Respect the nomenclature.

Zelda 1 refers to him as both the Prince of Darkness and the Great Demon King. ALttP refers to him as the Evil King and the Demon King. BotW refers to him as the Demon King and the Great Calamity. His titles are not even consistent in each indivdual game!

 

[Spiritual Mask Salesman]

No, just stop. If the writers wanted there to be no difference between a resurrection, a revival, or even a return then they would have used one word for those events. It's the same reason they take the effort to distinguish Ganon and Ganondorf. It's the same reason they distinguish his title of kingship. It's the same reason why ZE and HH are fundamentally different timelines. Not only is this consistent in both timelines, it's consistent in every game. You disrespecting nomenclature, yet continuing to use dev quotes and JAP translations is bad theory crafting. Respect the nomenclature.

Your leaning really heavily into headcanon. Four Swords Adventures Ganondorf/Ganon is the only different Ganondorf/Ganon in the series. Saying there are multiple different Ganondorfs/Ganons is an unsubstantiated claim that you are waving around in this thread like its some fact you have proven beyond a doubt. Nomenclature in the series is clearly not consistent, you are using something the devs obviously had no intention behind to say there was some plan behind it, when there isn't.