Could the Great Bay Temple Be the Pirate Stronghold?

[Willocrisp]

Last night, I thought of an interesting theory that kind of twisted my mind. What if the Great Bay Temple is/was/or could be the Pirates Stronghold? I made this video to make it easier to understand. It includes both pictures and audio:

[video=youtube;XKGQWU2LuBQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKGQWU2LuBQ&list=UUrBCnrAAneQqdpmA4DxXC2w[/video]

For those of you who like to read, here is it all summarized:

Reasons why I believe these two connect together is as follows:

- They are both within the same locations on their respective maps
- The structures/models are very similar
- They are both in the sea (Pirates Stronghold obviously used to be in the sea)
- Both seem to have a better mechanical/advanced technological design than the rest of their respective time periods
- They are even facing the same way (mouth/entrance to the south and back to north)
- If you play the audios to the dungeons at the same time, they mix PERFECTLY - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaG25rkkx7w - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GprL5X5KU9o
- The audios both have mystical synth-lines with off-beat mechanical drums. They both sound almost like some kind of machinery

Here's a few problems I've ran into with this theory though:

- If the Pirate Stronghold did indeed turn into The Great Bay Temple, then that means that the regions within Skyward Sword turn into Termina
- Since Skyward Sword is the earliest of the series, and Majora's Mask is MUCH later in time, then that would mean that before Skyward Sword there was an ocean. During SS the ocean dried up and formed into a desert. Then between the events of SS and MM, the ocean reformed, thus taking the Gerudo Desert theories away


This theory opens up a whole new world of theories, such as Termina actually being a past for future Hyrule and link travels through time when he falls through the portal.

Personally, I think it's quite interesting. However, who really knows. What you do guys think?

 

[Spiritual Mask Salesman]

Ummm... I'm pretty sure that the great bay is solely in Termina, I don't think it connect Hyrule to Termina, I still stand by the theory that Termina was a alternate dimension completly. Honestly it is a great idea, but the whole desert wasn't always an ocean in the past, we learn this by using Timeshift stones in SS, only the Lanayru Sand Sea was a body of water at one time. The pirate stronghold looks sort of similiar, but then again not so much, if they were both the same place why do they look different inside between games? Plus I'm sure if Termina was linked just by water to Hyrule in the past than some Terminian culture would have been brought over and shared with the Hylians, there is no proof of this at all which means it probably never happened.

You are trying to say the Screvo's pirate stronghold could be the great bay temple from MM, right?

 

[VitaTempusN92]

Termina is parallel of Hyrule, so no, the Great Bay Temple is not the Pirate Stronghold, they both share similarities though but no, they're not the same thing, end of story.

Edit:

Ummm... I'm pretty sure that the great bay is solely in Termina, I don't think it connect Hyrule to Termina, I still stand by the theory that Termina was a alternate dimension completly. Honestly it is a great idea, but the whole desert wasn't always an ocean in the past, we learn this by using Timeshift stones in SS, only the Lanayru Sand Sea was a body of water at one time. The pirate stronghold looks sort of similiar, but then again not so much, if they were both the same place why do they look different inside between games? Plus I'm sure if Termina was linked just by water to Hyrule in the past than some Terminian culture would have been brought over and shared with the Hylians, there is no proof of this at all which means it probably never happened.

You are trying to say the Screvo's pirate stronghold could be the great bay temple from MM, right?

Actually there is a possibility the stronghold could connect Hyrule and Termina. What if the stronghold, at one point, was used as a ship to traverse between dimensions, this could explain why it's in Termina instead of Hyrule in the Hero of Time era.

 

[HeroOfTime]

Well, there's obviously a connecting point somewhere in the fabric of the universe. After all, the happy mask salseman (my favorite character, as there's so much mystery surrounding him!) somehow knows how to get between dimensions, and Link somehow got there (maybe it was because the Lost Woods is the connecting area, maybe Skull Kid called him there somehow for some reason with the mask, or maybe from some totally different reason altogether), but there's definitely some place that people can enter Termina. It could be that the pirates stumbled upon it by accident, or that the stronghold is the gateway... the theories about MM have always been the most difficult to prove, though, as there's only been one game about it...

 

[Willocrisp]

Well, there's obviously a connecting point somewhere in the fabric of the universe. After all, the happy mask salseman (my favorite character, as there's so much mystery surrounding him!) somehow knows how to get between dimensions, and Link somehow got there (maybe it was because the Lost Woods is the connecting area, maybe Skull Kid called him there somehow for some reason with the mask, or maybe from some totally different reason altogether), but there's definitely some place that people can enter Termina. It could be that the pirates stumbled upon it by accident, or that the stronghold is the gateway... the theories about MM have always been the most difficult to prove, though, as there's only been one game about it...

Yes, I agree. However, the strangest thing about Majora's Mask is that Link (or whatever you named your character) the Goron is in it.

In OoT, Darunia names his first son whatever you named your character, and it seems that an older version of him is in MM. Does this mean that Link went a few years forward in time and the Goron somehow got to Termina, or did the Goron somehow manage to travel through time?

Too many questions :chu:

 

[VitaTempusN92]

Yes, I agree. However, the strangest thing about Majora's Mask is that Link (or whatever you named your character) the Goron is in it.

In OoT, Darunia names his first son whatever you named your character, and it seems that an older version of him is in MM. Does this mean that Link went a few years forward in time and the Goron somehow got to Termina, or did the Goron somehow manage to travel through time?

Too many questions :chu:

Huh? You mean the Goron Link you play as? That's just the Hylian Hero of Time Link in the form of the Goron, Darmani. Link the Goron from OoT isn't in this game, I don't even what you're talking about, did you ever even play MM, or did you just see stuff online and assumed things?

 

[PalaeoJoe]

Huh? You mean the Goron Link you play as? That's just the Hylian Hero of Time Link in the form of the Goron, Darmani. Link the Goron from OoT isn't in this game, I don't even what you're talking about, did you ever even play MM, or did you just see stuff online and assumed things?

He is not assuming anything, there is a travailing Goron who made a reservation at the Stock Pot Inn and who coincidentally has the same name as Link.

 

[Spiritual Mask Salesman]

He is not assuming anything, there is a travailing Goron who made a reservation at the Stock Pot Inn and who coincidentally has the same name as Link.

Oh yeah, that is right, I forgot about that. I mean it could be possible that Gorons know a way to get from Hyrule and Termina, afterall in MM some gorons referance the Dondango's cavern from OoT.

 

[VitaTempusN92]

He is not assuming anything, there is a travailing Goron who made a reservation at the Stock Pot Inn and who coincidentally has the same name as Link.

Oh, I didn't think about that when I saw his comment, thanks for reminding me.

 

[HeroOfTime]

Oh yeah, that is right, I forgot about that. I mean it could be possible that Gorons know a way to get from Hyrule and Termina, afterall in MM some gorons referance the Dondango's cavern from OoT.

I think that was another thread on the forum a little bit ago... they said that if Termina was a parallel, it'd have its own Dodongo's cavern...

 

[Justac00lguy]

Termina is parallel of Hyrule, so no, the Great Bay Temple is not the Pirate Stronghold, they both share similarities though but no, they're not the same thing, end of story.

A parallel dimension, by its very definition, is a self contained reality coexisting with another but never meeting (hence the term parallel). Termina can't be just some random dimension with no connection to Hyrule, it has to originate from somewhere; Termina is an alternate reality of Hyrule. You know what's also an alternate reality to Hyrule? The splits in the Timeline. The Wind Waker is a parallel world of, let's say, A Link to the Past - if they were to roughly take place during the same century or so.

What does this mean though? Well something happened in the past that changed the events of Hyrule which eventually led to Termina. If we analyse the infamous and highly controversial third split--the Defeated Timeline--something different happened to cause it to stray off course from the Adult Timeline. Of course we all know why, Ganondorf defeated Link in a hypothetical scenario creating an alternate world. Termina was born in the same way, something happened in Hyrule's past causing this contrast we see.

There is no Kingdom in Termina, there are no monarchs ruling, there is no sign of the Triforce or other important relics. However it contains some familiar faces and races. You could probably trace the lack of a Kingdom to the fact that it might never had been established. Possibly Termina could have been a hypothetical turn of events where Hyrule (the Kingdom) was never fully established. Could have some connection to this "Dark Tribe" we hear about briefly, but that's pure speculation. Point is, Termina was once Hyrule, but it followed a different plot line. So I think it's perfectly fine to compare it, geologically, to Hyrule's early stages.

---

Anyway on to the OP's theory.

It's interesting to say the least, I've never really thought of it simply because both eras and worlds are so drastically different. Adding to your theory, you could also possibly relate it to the fact that the Pirates, Gerudos, occupy the area, adding that it could be a Stronghold to them too before Majora started to temper with the ocean. Just a minor point really, it only relates to the name if anything.

However, there are number of problems with your theory, in that it's rather lacking concrete support. I can't necessarily disprove it, but the strong points don't convince me enough. I see the exterior designs of the dungeons being rather similar. I mean they're never going to fully match, Majora's Mask was made 11 years before and a good few console generations before as well. Visual comparisons are always going to be hard taking this into account, but I can slightly make out a fish mouth shape in the Great Bay Temple.

Did you ever consider the interior though? As far as my memory saves right, both are very different, from colour schemes to layout and even functions. They serve different purposes. Sure it's possible that the, original, Pirate's Stronghold turned into something else, but that's even more speculation and you could apply this to linking any location in the series and say "they just changed".

Oh and about the technology for their time period, Hyrule doesn't follow a linear progression of technoclical advancements like we see in our world. I mean we know this because, in Hyrule's early stages, things were quite technologically sound - the Timeshift Stones showcasing this. However, games like Twilight Princess, Legend of Zelda and Adventure of Link show little signs of advancement, in fact, they show decline if anything. These games take place, most likely, thousands and thousands of years after this technological age in Hyrule as well. What I'm saying is that technology is dependent on how it's allowed it's thrive. If Ganondorf pops up and destroys half of Hyrule then technology probably resets, which is present in TP.

Overall, I think you have a case, but I just don't see enough convincing evidence to full support it. It's interesting, I'm just not exactly certain on it.

 

[VitaTempusN92]

A parallel dimension, by its very definition, is a self contained reality coexisting with another but never meeting (hence the term parallel). Termina can't be just some random dimension with no connection to Hyrule, it has to originate from somewhere; Termina is an alternate reality of Hyrule. You know what's also an alternate reality to Hyrule? The splits in the Timeline. The Wind Waker is a parallel world of, let's say, A Link to the Past - if they were to roughly take place during the same century or so.

What does this mean though? Well something happened in the past that changed the events of Hyrule which eventually led to Termina. If we analyse the infamous and highly controversial third split--the Defeated Timeline--something different happened to cause it to stray off course from the Adult Timeline. Of course we all know why, Ganondorf defeated Link in a hypothetical scenario creating an alternate world. Termina was born in the same way, something happened in Hyrule's past causing this contrast we see.

There is no Kingdom in Termina, there are no monarchs ruling, there is no sign of the Triforce or other important relics. However it contains some familiar faces and races. You could probably trace the lack of a Kingdom to the fact that it might never had been established. Possibly Termina could have been a hypothetical turn of events where Hyrule (the Kingdom) was never fully established. Could have some connection to this "Dark Tribe" we hear about briefly, but that's pure speculation. Point is, Termina was once Hyrule, but it followed a different plot line. So I think it's perfectly fine to compare it, geologically, to Hyrule's early stages.

1) Did you not read my edit in my first post in this thread? I edited in my response to Spiritual Mask Salesman, saying the following:

Actually there is a possibility the stronghold could connect Hyrule and Termina. What if the stronghold, at one point, was used as a ship to traverse between dimensions, this could explain why it's in Termina instead of Hyrule in the Hero of Time era.

After I watched Willocrisp's video, I realized there may be a connection after all as I corrected myself there somewhat.

2) Termina is NOT Hyrule and never was. Just because it's a parallel world or alternate reality or whatever, doesn't mean it was once Hyrule. By that logic, you're basically suggesting the possibility that Lorule was once Hyrule and you wouldn't first on that if that was the case. Not saying you're idea of Termina is bad or anything, I just have a different view of things, plus I following most of what's confirmed, especially the info that's sense to my view of things. It's confirmed Termina isn't Hyrule, officially anyways, like I always say, you can believe what you want, in this case, I'm just following what Nintendo has confirmed.

3) There were Triforce symbols on the pillars and blocks of Stone Tower Temple. My theory is that there was a time when Hyrule and Termina at some point in time interacted with each other.

Anyways, that would be all for now, I'm tired. :tired:

 

[Justac00lguy]

1) Did you not read my edit in my first post in this thread? I edited in my response to Spiritual Mask Salesman, saying the following:

Yeah sure I saw it, but there's no evidence to back up that claim whatsoever, plus there's a far more logical explanation.

2) Termina is NOT Hyrule and never was. Just because it's a parallel world or alternate reality or whatever, doesn't mean it was once Hyrule. By that logic, you're basically suggesting the possibility that Lorule was once Hyrule and you wouldn't first on that if that was the case. Not saying you're idea of Termina is bad or anything, I just have a different view of things, plus I following most of what's confirmed, especially the info that's sense to my view of things. It's confirmed Termina isn't Hyrule, officially anyways, like I always say, you can believe what you want, in this case, I'm just following what Nintendo has confirmed.

I don't think you understand parallel dimensions. They are alternate realities of the origin world. Think something simple, that Family Guy episode on the Multiverse Theory for example. Each universe is formed from a hypothetical scenario that changed the course of history thus causing an alternate reality. Parallel dimensions are just that. They run side-by-side but never meet. Doesn't this sound an awful lot like something we know? Ah yes the Timeline. Each split is a parallel dimension. The Downfall Timeline is a hypothetical universe where Ganondorf killed Link - that's why we this and the Adult Timeline are parallel to each other; they're not the same.

So when the term "parallel world" is used to describe Termina, people automatically think it's some alien world that has no connection to reality - that's wrong and competently illogical. Parallel worlds are alternate realities that once originated from the original world. Hyrule is the world and Termina is an alternate version of Hyrule, most likely something happened--maybe a hypothetical scenario like Ganondorf defeating Link--that changed the course of this particular world, which is why it contrasts from the likes of Ocarina of Time. I mean you can even look at the characters and races; there are Zoras, Hylians, Gerudos, Gorons, all of which originated from Hyrule within its early stages.

 

[Jirohnagi]

I always thought Termina became how it was because there was no Link, each of the races had it's own hero bar the humans. Darmani - Gorons, Mikau - Zoras for the Deku you could argue the Princess for that one. But there is no hero for the humans. No one to save them from anything type of war or the like. I think the Ikana Kingom was once like the Hyrule Kingdom, but it was felled by a neighboring country. (sound familiar? Garos - Gerudo), Another missing parallel person is Zelda's counterpart we see no one similar to her. Majora is it's own type of evil and not of the Demise line of evil because at that point in time Ganondorf is still alive along the adult timeline and (presumably) Incarcerated in the child timeline.

 

[Justac00lguy]

I always thought Termina became how it was because there was no Link, each of the races had it's own hero bar the humans. Darmani - Gorons, Mikau - Zoras for the Deku you could argue the Princess for that one. But there is no hero for the humans. No one to save them from anything type of war or the like. I think the Ikana Kingom was once like the Hyrule Kingdom, but it was felled by a neighboring country. (sound familiar? Garos - Gerudo), Another missing parallel person is Zelda's counterpart we see no one similar to her. Majora is it's own type of evil and not of the Demise line of evil because at that point in time Ganondorf is still alive along the adult timeline and (presumably) Incarcerated in the child timeline.

Yeah Termina is definitely absent of a hero. There is no talk of one coming to rescue them - even among folklore. The only hope they have of savoir is from the Four Giants, but they're simply province guardians like the Light Spirits or the Dragons from Skyward Sword. So I definitely think it's plausible that this specific parallel world was formed, most likely, from the absence of a hero much like the events of the Great Flood.