Between MM and TP

[Zelda64]

So you have the OOT-MM-TP line. We have an idea of what happens during OOT and MM, but what about what happens during MM-TP? I have no clue....What are your thoughts? I mean all you see at the end of MM is Link riding off with Epona in the woods...

 

[BamaLynx]

The common theory in regards to the Hero of Time (the OoT/MM Link) is that after events in MM he gets lost in the Forbidden Woods, becomes a Stalfos, and is the Hero's Shade in Twilight Princess. This is not proven, but seems to be at least one legitimate theory.

With respect to Ganondorf, they pretty much explain what happened to him during that time (which can be seen during the OoT ending and cut scenes in Twilight Princess after Arbiter's Grounds). After the Hero of Time defeats Ganon in OoT, Zelda sends him back to his childhood and Young Link (prior to MM events) goes to Young Zelda and tells her of Ganondorf's plans. In TP we see that based on this information the Sages banish Ganondorf to the Twilight Realm (Ganondorf destroys one Sage in the process). Ganondorf spends his time in the Twilight Realm basically manipulating Zant and biding his time until he can esacape and regain power.

 

[DuckNoises]

The common theory in regards to the Hero of Time (the OoT/MM Link) is that after events in MM he gets lost in the Forbidden Woods, becomes a Stalfos, and is the Hero's Shade in Twilight Princess. This is not proven, but seems to be at least one legitimate theory.

How exactly can Link get trapped in the Lost Woods? He has warp songs.

As far as we know, there seems to be evidence pointing toward some sort of civil strife between Ocarina of Time and TP, in addition to what appears to be the Gerudo fading away from prominence.

There is also the whole notion of Link and his personal life, and whether or not he tries to pursue a normal childhood, romance, etc., but most of it after that point is speculation, and not entirely necessary for theory.

One theory-related bit is that, from my understanding, the entrance to Termina was closed after the end of MM.

 

[Zelda64]

This is exactly what I'm talking about. I know the common theory, BTW.

 

[Locke]

I've had several thoughts on this time period. I wrote a few of them in my recent article about SS:

While I don’t think these last two themes are quite as likely to appear in Skyward Sword, they were highlighted in Twilight Princess to such an extent as to believe that the developers had more in mind than just what they presented in that game. The first is the symbol displayed throughout Snowpeak Ruins. This normally wouldn’t be anything special, as dungeons often have recurring symbols on doors and switches, but the ones in this mansion are given much more meaning by the nature of the mansion, the weapons stored there, and the symbol’s reoccurrence in a hidden cave in North Hyrule Field. This ‘dungeon’ isn’t just a cave or a carved out tree. It’s a manmade structure, built for a purpose that seems to be different from what the yetis use it for. Through the display of weapons and armor, and the frequent use of cannons while progressing through the ruins, one gets the impression that this used to be a military outpost. The crests reveal that it belonged to a powerful family or nation.

As if that wasn’t enough, we were given part of what could prove to be a very interesting story. Deep in a cave situated in North Hyrule Field lies a hidden armory or barracks, protected by walls of ice. Inside, one can find a series of block-pushing puzzles, a treasure chest containing a heart piece, walls lined with various weapons, and more depictions of the same crest found in Snowpeak Mansion. Of particular interest are the banners bearing the crest of the Hylian Royal Family that weren’t present in the mansion. It becomes quite obvious that there is an untold story involving these two locations. I can only guess at what this story is. One of my theories involves some event occurring after the child ending of Ocarina of Time that ties in with a few other themes like the hero’s shade and the many references to a past hero in Twilight Princess. ...

The other theme is the legend of the ancient hero. It’s not so much a legend like in many other games – such as The Minish Cap – as a series of references pointing to some hero that can’t easily be attributed to any known incarnation of Link. These references included the Hero’s Bow belonging to an ancient hero, the green tunic being worn by the ancient hero, and Renado being reminded of the ancient hero when he sees Link. Before Skyward Sword, the Link from Ocarina of Time and Majora’s Mask was the only one we knew for certain existed before the one in Twilight Princess. But as far as we know, he never “saved Hyrule from a crisis,” (on the child timeline) as is told of the ancient hero. He also didn’t bring the bow or tunic back with him, so some assumptions would have to be made in order to apply the legend to him. Either he did something heroic after returning from Termina...

I didn't expand on the theories that I just bolded because they weren't within the scope of the article, but this seems like an appropriate place to do so.

I'll start with the hero's shade. As has already been posted, this is a common one. I've come to this conclusion using a different set of evidence than most however. I don't see the Gilded Sword or Mirror Shield among his possessions, for one thing. His parting words after teaching the first hidden skill revealed much to me.

There are still six hidden skills for you to learn.
Those are only for one who carries the blood of the hero...the one whose spirit
is that of the sublime beast.
Grow powerful. Test your courage. And when you find that you need another skill
to overcome the threats that face you...
Search for the statues that howl with the sound of the wind. Seek the sound
that calls to the spirit of the beast to awaken me again.
A sword wields no strength unless the hand that holds it has courage. Remember
those words...
Farewell!

A look at the Japanese text specifies that the skills are "inherited only by blood relatives of the hero," and shows that "the one whose spirit is that of the sublime beast" refers to "the hero," not to "one who carries the blood..." This proves that both the hero's shade and Link are blood relatives of "the hero," given that their spirits are also of the sublime beast and they both (already/will) know the hidden skills.
The next quote reveals who "the hero" is.

You have at last mastered all of the hidden skills.
Although I accepted life as the hero, I could not convey the lessons of that life to those who came after. At last, I have eased my regrets.
You who have marched through countless foes, each mightier than the last... You, who now gaze to the future with vision unclouded...
Surely you can restore Hyrule to its stature of yore as the chosen land of the gods.
...Farewell!
Go and do not falter, my child!

The hero's shade is "the hero." Following Occam's Razor, we assume that there is only one "the hero" (besides the one that TP Link is to become) because there is no evidence or necessity for more. This hero is the Hero of Time, the only other hero to have wielded the Master Sword he seems to know so much about.

Now, all of that may seem pointless, as most people already accept this idea. But I'm going to delve deeper into these quotes (possibly too far) to learn more about what became of the Hero of Time. I'll look at the second quote first this time, specifically the second line. "I accepted life as a hero" - I'm almost certainly overanalyzing this - This sounds like a choice. The HoT didn't have much of a choice. He was told what to do. But Zelda felt bad about this and gave him to opportunity to make his own choices by sending him back in time. He must have chosen to be a hero sometime after this point. He couldn't have been referring to his journey in Termina because he didn't know the hidden skills at that point. It was during his "life as a hero" when he learned the lessons. So this life must have happened after he returned to Hyrule. This leads to the second bolded phrase of the section of my article I posted. He became the hero the people of TP remember sometime after both of the previous games. What exactly he did as a hero relates to the first bolded phrase. There was a war, though we don't have enough information to guess who it was with and what it was about.

Back to the first hero's shade quote, he mentions the howling stones. These are interesting objects because they very much resemble the gossip stones from OoT/MM, bearing the eye symbol of the Sheikah.

The Hero of Time came to know a lot about the Sheikah during his journey from his interactions with Impa, the gossip stones, Sheikah artifacts, etc. The howling stones are evidence that he was able to further his studies, possibly from Impa herself.

How he died, however, still remains a mystery. My theory is that he forsaw the need for a new hero in the future in case Ganondorf escaped or a new evil would arise, and he found that the best way of aiding that hero was to create the howling stones and die in the Lost Woods to become a stalfos. Perhaps a battle was fought there as part of the war I mentioned earlier. This might have something to do with the ToT mystery as well, which I still haven't come across a sufficient explanation for.

 

[DuckNoises]

The hero's shade is "the hero." Following Occam's Razor, we assume that there is only one "the hero" (besides the one that TP Link is to become) because there is no evidence or necessity for more. This hero is the Hero of Time, the only other hero to have wielded the Master Sword he seems to know so much about.

Now, all of that may seem pointless, as most people already accept this idea. But I'm going to delve deeper into these quotes (possibly too far) to learn more about what became of the Hero of Time. I'll look at the second quote first this time, specifically the second line. "I accepted life as a hero" - I'm almost certainly overanalyzing this - This sounds like a choice. The HoT didn't have much of a choice. He was told what to do. But Zelda felt bad about this and gave him to opportunity to make his own choices by sending him back in time. He must have chosen to be a hero sometime after this point. He couldn't have been referring to his journey in Termina because he didn't know the hidden skills at that point. It was during his "life as a hero" when he learned the lessons. So this life must have happened after he returned to Hyrule. This leads to the second bolded phrase of the section of my article I posted. He became the hero the people of TP remember sometime after both of the previous games. What exactly he did as a hero relates to the first bolded phrase. There was a war, though we don't have enough information to guess who it was with and what it was about.

One thing that we have to remember is that the Hero of Time still possesses all the memories and experiences he had when he went and saved Hyrule on the Adult Timeline in the events of OoT. The phrase "choosing to become the Hero" could also merely mean that he decided to warn Zelda about Ganondorf's attack on Castle Town, as that was not Zelda's specific request; her request was:

Now it is time for me to make up
for my mistakes...
You must lay the Master Sword to
rest and close the Door of Time...

However, by doing this, the road
between times will be closed...

Link,
give the Ocarina to me...
As a Sage, I can return you
to your original time with it.

When peace returns to Hyrule...
It will be time for us to say
good-bye...

Now, go home, Link.
Regain your lost time!
Home...
where you are supposed to be...
the way you are supposed to be...

Her original request was only for Link to close the Door of Time so that Ganondorf could not break the Triforce, and Zelda's continued emphasis on him returning to "the way he was supposed to be" implies that she wants him to return to before he became the Hero of Time, and before he truly got started on his quest to gather the Spiritual Stones. This implies that Zelda originally intended for Link to return to his childhood, to live his life as if they had never met, but it sounds like Link went above and beyond Zelda's demands and saved Castle Town by warning them of the attack. To me, this sounds what the Hero's Shade is referring to when he says he "chose to be the Hero." It implies a strong sense of nobility in Link that he would choose to save Hyrule and then Castle Town, even after he was no longer obliged to do so. This would explain all the reverence that exists for the Hero of Time on the Child Timeline, or it could merely be the fact that the exploits of the Hero of Time when he was on the Adult Timeline were shared when he returned to the Child Timeline. This does not necessarily preclude the notion that the Hero of Time went on to have further adventures on the Child Timeline after saving Termina, but it doesn't have to be necessary. At this point, by extension of Occam's Razor, there isn't a necessity to assume that there were heroics other than those already stated, as it doesn't look like further events are eluded to on the timeline after TP.

He couldn't have been referring to his journey in Termina because he didn't know the hidden skills at that point. It was during his "life as a hero" when he learned the lessons. So this life must have happened after he returned to Hyrule. This leads to the second bolded phrase of the section of my article I posted. He became the hero the people of TP remember sometime after both of the previous games.

The Hero's Shade could very well be referring to his time on the Adult Timeline; remember that he is still the Hero of Time in spirit (accidentally profound phrasing), and he possesses all the memories and experiences of the Adult Timeline. He remembers every thing that he used to defeat Ganondorf (as is suggested by him remembering/re-learning many OoT melodies in MM), and the same is true for sword techniques. He doesn't necessarily have to develop "hidden sword techniques" in name by going on another adventure -- they can just be named alternatives of things he learned when he saved Hyrule on the Adult Timeline (named exclusively for gameplay purposes in TP). Again, this brings us back to the notion of "choosing to be the Hero"; rather than abandon his past (well, technically, his future :xd: -- the stuff he did on the Adult Timeline) he chose to relive the life of a Hero rather than go back to his humble beginnings in Kokiri Forest after closing the Door of Time.

The notion of revisiting his past is perhaps why OoT ends with Link returning to the courtyard where he first meets Zelda rather than in Kokiri Forest, the place of his childhood; this has a fair number of implications, the most important of which being the implication that he returned to the place where he first legitimately set out on his journey as a hero, which implies that he would make that choice again in saving Castle Town. Had he returned to Kokiri Forest rather than Hyrule Castle Courtyard, we would almost definitely assume that he chose to resume his childhood. But that notion is not entirely thrown away, as suggested by the ending of Majora's Mask, which has him returning to (what appears to be) Kokiri Forest with Skull Kid and the wood carving on the tree, which implies that he got to have some of his childhood, but still, not as he would have originally had it. Alternatively, it could be interpreted that all these events seem to separate him from his childhood, seemingly implying that he was chosen by fate to remain a hero upon making the decision to save Castle Town; perhaps his fate was sealed as the Hero because he returned with the Triforce of Courage. Its significance is often skimmed over, so perhaps this could be its true intention, that the ToC keeps him noble and heroic, and influenced his decisions to save Hyrule once again.

Now, the bit about the bloodline; another implication of the Castle Courtyard ending with Zelda is perhaps a resolution to the romantic subplot in OoT. By choosing to revisit the path of the Hero, that subsequently meant that he would have to work closer with Zelda to prevent Ganondorf's attack to come to fruition. Now, I won't go into details about what this implies, but maybe this resolves the whole "Hero's bloodline" issue as suggested by Locke's Japanese TP quotation. (How did rabid fangirlism work its way into my post? Curse you, interwebs! ) On the other hand, the phrase "My child" is very likely just the Hero's Shade addressing TP Link with a sense of seniority; regardless, the utterance of such a phrase doesn't preclude either notion one way or the other. Anyway, this ties in nicely with the whole Hero's bloodline and the choice of being the Hero again.

Now, why is it necessary that the Hero of Time dies in the second "bout" of heroism? Could he not have died merely of old age? One doesn't have to die young to remain a revered Hero in the sense that the Hero of Time was -- he could have merely aged and died an old swordsman, having been a hero in youth. In fact, that's often been the case in recent Zelda games with Sword Techniques. I see the fact that he appears as a Stalfos as merely symbolic, both in the sense that they need a physical manifestation of him to demonstrate the sword techniques, in addition to the notion that the Hero would need a "deceased" form to provide a greater, more ominous presence, similar to how Hamlet's father appears as a ghost in Hamlet; to see him physically is not entirely necessary, but it furthers the intrigue.

At any rate, I think that the "choice" is merely a reference to his achievement in preventing Ganondorf's attack; we can't be so certain yet that he was involved in any war between MM and TP.

 

[Kaiser Kami]

I know this cannot be put into the Zelda timeline but how about this? what happened between MM and TP was Soul Caliber 2 and Smash Bros Melee. At the end of SC2 the game explains why Link went to that world. it's because of some monsters were approching and Zelda was not supposed to know, he went on a secret mission to stop the monsters. Melee I understand they are Trophies just like in Brawl but it could be like Dissida Final Fantasy. The fighters are pulled in at random times during the game (mainly at the climax of the game or the ending) Link went back to Hyrule at the end of MM but became lost and ended up in the Melee world, as he left that's where what I said above of SC2 starts. so that is
MM -> Melee-> SC2-> TP but who knows? I think that the hero in that golden wolf form is not MM Link, but the Knights of Hyrule. They were mentioned in OOT and in all the Zelda games usually...so it has to be one of them. That's just my theory.

 

[Raven]

I don't think Link went straight back to Hyrule I think he had quite a few more adventures before he finally makes it back to his homeland. At the end of MM we see Link riding away into the distance, I took this to mean that he was traveling even farther and not turning back, to me it felt like from now on Link would only move forwards without looking back over his shoulder for the friends he had past by, after MM he recieves the words "Whenever there is a meeting, a parting shall follow. But that parting needs not last forever. Whether a parting be forever or merely for a short while... that is up to you." - The Mask Salesman (MM)

To me that was like an important lesson that Link learned at the very end of the game, and once he realized the truth in those words he decided he would see is friends again (ex. Navi, Saria, Zelda, Malon) but not yet... not just yet. He would meet them again, but not by turning around and trying to find them (like he did for Navi or perhaps Saria in the Lost Woods) but by moving ever forward. Then when he finally meets his friends again he would be a stronger person for it.

Much like a few of my friends who have moved on without me, I'll continue to keep moving forward too until I see them again, instead of trying to seek them out. I think that might be one of the differences between adults and kids, upon reaching adulthood some of the people you know move away or start their own life and you dont see them as much. More often than kids, adults must learn to let go of these important people and just continue on.

 

[linebyline]

The hero's shade is "the hero." Following Occam's Razor, we assume that there is only one "the hero" (besides the one that TP Link is to become) because there is no evidence or necessity for more. This hero is the Hero of Time, the only other hero to have wielded the Master Sword he seems to know so much about.

Occam's Razor, huh? Don't make up extra stuff to explain a situation when the stuff you already know about will work, right? Nice to hear it being used for something other than "You're appealing to ignorance!" "No, you are!" (Got to stop reading comment threads for religion articles. Urgh.)

Bit the way I see it, either way is making up something we don't have, and neither way is something we haven't seen before. Okay, you're not making up another Link, but you are presumably making up another adventure (which doesn't appear in any game, judging by the timeline in your signature). I don't see that as being any more or less likely than necessitating an additional Link. Four Swords did the same thing, so there's precedent. Though that extra Link's story was eventually told in a game, i.e. Minish Cap.

On the other hand, there's also a precedent for Link wanting to set out on ever more adventures, like Raven says. Beside MM, there's also the Link in LA who got so bored after beating Ganon (in LttP, it was safe to assume at the time) that he went out to sea in search of adventure. So again, it could go either way.

I also see a problem with the idea of Link becoming a Stalfos, though it may be just fuzzy memories of OoT: Was it necessary that people die in the Lost Woods to become a Stalfos? I thought it just happened to those who became lost there. OoT Link in particular was exempt from being turned into anything nasty, as presumably was his mother when she dropped him off there in the first place. I'm with DuckNoises--the skeletal appearance was more symbolic, perhaps to emphasize that he is in fact a dead guy.

Kaiser Kami brings up an interesting point about the Knights of Hyrule; If I remember correctly (which is kinda hit or miss), it was rather frequently said that Link had to be in their bloodline (though WW Link may be an exception depending on what Red Lions meant by not being related to the Hero--does that rule out a common ancestor? But I digress...) so that stuff about blood relations does make sense. Recall that Link's Uncle in LttP also mentioned something about the Whirling Blade Technique being handed down in their family.

That said, I think "The Hero" generally does mean he was Link at some point. It kinda goes back to the Four Swords example I brought up earlier: It was never said that the boy who used the Four Sword was a Link, but Minish Cap came along and confirmed that he was.

What you should take away from all this is that I haven't the slightest idea what I'm talking about.

 

[DuckNoises]

I was looking through some MM quotes, and I found this, from the introduction:

In the land of Hyrule, there
echoes a legend. A legend held
dearly by the Royal Family that
tells of a boy...

A boy who,
after battling evil and saving
Hyrule, crept away from the land
that had made him a legend...

Done with the battles he once
waged across time, he embarked
on a journey. A secret and
personal journey...

A journey in search of a
beloved and invaluable friend...

A friend with whom he parted
ways when he finally fulfilled his
heroic destiny and took his place
among legends...

This snippet here seems to imply that the Hero's choice was merely to return to Hyrule in the past and save it, as this is when Link parts ways with Navi. This quotation seems to act against the notion of the Hero of Time having a separate adventure after MM; it doesn't necessarily preclude the notion, but it implies that such an adventure wasn't what made him a revered historical figure. The use of the phrase "heroic destiny" is what makes me associate it with TP, as there are numerous references to the "ones chosen by destiny" or the "Hero chosen by destiny" (TP Link) -- TP Link is carrying on the "heroic destiny" of the Hero of Time.
Alternatively, it could also be referring to the Legend of the Hero in TWW, because this is when the Hero of Time leaves the Adult Timeline.

 

[An Hero of Time]

My personal theories concerning Link's departure from Termina after MM... :

1. Link gets lost in the forest, falls victim to the Lost Woods' curse and becomes TP's Skull Kid. (I personally believe that The Hero's Shade isn't the Hero of Time, but is instead SS Link or some "unknown" Link that lived and fought between MM and TP's time era.)

2. Link returns to Hyrule in order to become a Royal Knight and ends up marrying Malon. They have children and later start their own ranching business in a remote territory of Hyrule, eventually founding the village of Ordon. (No, I'm in no way a supporter of LinkXMalon, but it seems plausible due to the evidence that was presented in both OoT and TP.)

3. Link returned to Termina, or perhaps embarked on other adventures as he continued his search for Navi, (the latter part would ago against MM's main message though, but you never know... I wouldn't be surprised if Nintendo makes one more game starring the Hero of Time in the near future, thanks to the 3DS OoT remake.)

 

[Whats your name]

Hero's Shade

Wherever i went i always heard that the hero's shade is the result of majora's mask's ending, now the first time i heard this it shocked me. I really thought "this is what i get for saving the world"? it sounds nerd as hell but i really didnt want link to end in that way.

But now after years of wanting twilight princess i finally got it and finished it, and the more i think about it the less and less likely it seems to me that the hero's shade is link turned into a stalfos.

I REALLY WANT to know why everyone says link turned into a stalfos And i almost made this account only to post why i think its the worst theory in the world.

First - They say the hero's shade shield is the shield from majora's mask. The shield's shape is a circle i give you that, but then why does he has the master sword -and- the shield from majora's mask. we're talking about the timeline where the door of time is closed and stays closed. But oh well this proves nothing, ive got better but-seses(?)

He was 10 years old he should have turned into a skull kid not a stalfos

If he was lost in lost woods after majora's mask, asuming he turned into the hero's shade, wich is the shade of an adult, not a 10 years old kid, how would tp link be his descendant?

He tells you (the shade) he could not pass away until he taught his sword technics to a new hero, why should we be thinking of sad ways he could have died when it doesnt even fit with the timeline?

OK i did it, now i can rest at ease xD
if the whole theory bases only in saria's song at the end of mm please tell me and if it doesnt end my suffering now and take away from me the last bit of hope i had left for oot link xD

 

[JuicieJ]

Actually, the Stalfos means nothing because that was him taking on a form Link wouldn't mind slashing at. His actual form is the golden wolf, not the Stalfos. He could have turned into any form he felt like. A Stalfos was just the most fitting, as they're an enemy that Link wouldn't mind hacking at. If he'd turned into a human form, Link would have been a little hesitant to attack. But other than that, you got it perfectly. (Save the shield.)

 

[DuckNoises]

We have many threads like this, so I'm going to merge this with an older one.

 

[Cardkeeper]

Personally, I agree with the fact that OoT/MM Link is the Shade, but it honestly doesn't make much sense for him to be a literal Stalfos. Besides, JuicieJ hit it right on the head, he's the Golden Wolf. My theory is that his form is the Golden Wolf because he has the Triforce of Courage. When TP Link finds him and learns from him all 6 times, he 'proves' himself to be the chosen one and the ToC can be sent from the Hero to TP Link and that is why he can know rest easy, he found a new hero to trust with the Triforce.