Are The Zonai a Beneficial Addition to the Series?

[Ryuu Kage Desu]

literally nobody said or even implied otherwise.


Easily missed means subtle, not nonexistent. Me saying "Wonder Bread" yesterday does not foreshadow me making a sandwich today.

"They might use this in the future" is not foreshadowing.

You want an example of actual foreshadowing? The first Professor Layton trilogy. All throughout the second game, and to a lesser extent the first one, there is dialogue about how the Professor refuses to take off his hat. It's a distinct attribute, albeit one that's subtle enough to be considered a weird quirk and nothing more. Maybe you could theorize why that is, but it clearly wasn't the point to do so. They then follow this up by heavily reiterating the fact that he doesn't remove his hat in the third game before finally revealing the exact reason why. This is foreshadowing because it not only shows that the event in question exists, but also has some sort of thematic connection to the event.

Trying to call the Zonai's presence in BotW "foreshadowing" would be like trying to say that the mere existence of the Professors hat was foreshadowing the reveal of how he obtained it.

Like I said. I get it. You prefer to have things far more blatant and obvious. It doesn't change anything about the game in question.

oh man people definitely overuse the word foreshadowing
especially when it comes to those new disney tv shows
gravity falls was full of great foreshadowing and now everyone who watches owl house/amphibia/star/etc is like "this is clearly foreshadowing!"

probably some of that going on here too

I wouldn't know. I've only seen the parts of those shows my children have shown me. The shows seem interesting enough.

My usage of the terms comes from the writing courses I've taken.

 

[thePlinko]

Like I said. I get it. You prefer to have things far more blatant and obvious. It doesn't change anything about the game in question.

Just because I don’t like ****ty writing doesn’t mean I “prefer to have things far more blatant and obvious.” You making up things that objectively do not exist doesn’t change anything about the game in question either.

My usage of the terms comes from the writing courses I've taken.

You might want to take them again, because you clearly do not know what foreshadowing means.

 

[Ryuu Kage Desu]

Just because I don’t like ****ty writing doesn’t mean I “prefer to have things far more blatant and obvious.” You making up things that objectively do not exist doesn’t change anything about the game in question either.

You might want to take them again, because you clearly do not know what foreshadowing means.

I have not invented anything here, and getting upset won't help your arguments.

 

[thePlinko]

I have not invented anything here, and getting upset won't help your arguments.

You keep insisting that there’s foreshadowing here when there very clearly isn’t, and acting like I just can’t handle subtlety when I point out that theres literally nothing there.

 

[Vaati]

Sounds like we read very different literature. Not all foreshadowing requires a character to look into the fourth wall, and tell us that the thing will be important later. Many of the best uses, in my opinion, are easily missed, then we are reminded about it when it pops up again. For that mater, many people took the mere presence of the ruins, and a few people in game researching said ruins, as that implying future relevance. On top of that, as I have said before, what we did get, enough or not, is still more foreshadowing and continuity than we have gotten in previous games. We could tell that there was a history present in the world before that history was, quite literally, dropped on us.

The ruins were there before; did the zonai ruins fall from the sky, or did the Zonai commute to them? Did the Zonai make them and leave,

 

[Ryuu Kage Desu]

You keep insisting that there’s foreshadowing here when there very clearly isn’t, and acting like I just can’t handle subtlety when I point out that theres literally nothing there.

Foreshadowing, from a perspective taught by industry professionals is more about providing the clues/cues/insight to the audience you are writing to. Just like there is no one way to write a mystery, with some mysteries being an actual puzzle to figure out who done it, and others telling you who right away who done it; there is no prescribed way to write foreshadowing and continuity, with some stories requiring more information, and others needing just hints.

Which leads to the next issue. I said that you must prefer more obvious stories. It's not an insult against your taste, or your ability to grasp subtlety. It's simply a statement about preference. By insisting that nothing is present, when there was indeed something (however minor that is), and that others must view the efficacy of what is there the same way you do, tells everyone all they need to know about your stance.

Ultimately, I agree that the writing could have been better, and what little was there could have been improved upon. It doesn't change the fact that there is more here than before. Is that little enough to be happy with? It is for me, and numerous others. Is it enough for everyone? Obviously not.

The ruins were there before; did the zonai ruins fall from the sky, or did the Zonai commute to them? Did the Zonai make them and leave,

My going theory is that the Zonai civilization operated much we already see, for modern cities close to one another. Many would have spent their time more locally, be it in the sky, the depths, or on the surface, with there being pilgrimages, and things being shipped from where they were made. I also still think there was a conflict that lead the Zonai to become the Minish, basically abandoning their destroyed structures. But those are just my theories on the subject.

 

[thePlinko]

Foreshadowing, from a perspective taught by industry professionals is more about providing the clues/cues/insight to the audience you are writing to. Just like there is no one way to write a mystery, with some mysteries being an actual puzzle to figure out who done it, and others telling you who right away who done it; there is no prescribed way to write foreshadowing and continuity, with some stories requiring more information, and others needing just hints.

I never said that there was one way to write foreshadowing, I said that what you’re arguing is foreshadowing is not. Foreshadowing would require the elements in question to have some sort of relevance to the story it’s building to. Generic ruins and a meaningless name do neither of that.

Which leads to the next issue. I said that you must prefer more obvious stories. It's not an insult against your taste, or your ability to grasp subtlety. It's simply a statement about preference. By insisting that nothing is present, when there was indeed something (however minor that is), and that others must view the efficacy of what is there the same way you do, tells everyone all they need to know about your stance.

And I’m saying that you’re wrong. I don’t prefer “obvious” stories. I like stories that actually exist. I’m insisting that there’s nothing present because there isn’t anything present.

 

[Daku Rinku]

On further thought I dislike the Zonai addition, it severely messes with the established lore that The Golden Goddesses made the races:





In Tears of the Kingdom Zelda says The Zonai made the Hylians, interbreed to make them.

 

[Vaati]

On further thought I dislike the Zonai addition, it severely messes with the established lore that The Golden Goddesses made the races:

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In Tears of the Kingdom Zelda says The Zonai made the Hylians, interbreed to make them.

yeahhhh......

Alternate realities like in pokemon. Obviously. Could the Golden Goddesses be gold leafed Zonai constructs lol?

 

[Daku Rinku]

yeahhhh......

Alternate realities like in pokemon. Obviously. Could the Golden Goddesses be gold leafed Zonai constructs lol?

I imagine they will go the the Silmarillion route: The Golden Goddesses are like Eru Illuvatar (great god) who created through lesser gods The Valar/Vala who in this case would be The Zonai.

I don’t like that retconning, even though I love the Sil, I preferred it being The Three Goddesses.

 

[Spiritual Mask Salesman]

In Tears of the Kingdom Zelda says The Zonai made the Hylians, interbreed to make them.

Source? I do not remember her ever saying this. She says the zonai forged a relationship with the Hylians of the time to forge the kingdom of Hyrule, not that the Zonai created Hylians.

Regarding the debate on whether the Zonai were foreshadowed in Breath of the Wild: in the game itself, no. There is no importance or weight put into the Zonai in Breath of the Wild. We only see the name "Zonai" in the location "Zonai Ruins" but there is no indicator that the ruins should be special. It was only Creating a Champion's release that mention the Zonai a little more, but still not a ton. If someone only ever played BotW but knew nothing about Creating a Champion, they'd never see any foreshadowing. Foreshadowing requires some literal hint or clue in the body of work itself, and that isn't present in any of the text in BotW as a game.

 

[Daku Rinku]

Source? I do not remember her ever saying this. She says the zonai forged a relationship with the Hylians of the time to forge the kingdom of Hyrule, not that the Zonai created Hylians.

Regarding the debate on whether the Zonai were foreshadowed in Breath of the Wild: in the game itself, no. There is no importance or weight put into the Zonai in Breath of the Wild. We only see the name "Zonai" in the location "Zonai Ruins" but there is no indicator that the ruins should be special. It was only Creating a Champion's release that mention the Zonai a little more, but still not a ton. If someone only ever played BotW but knew nothing about Creating a Champion, they'd never see any foreshadowing. Foreshadowing requires some literal hint or clue in the body of work itself, and that isn't present in any of the text in BotW as a game.

Its at the beginning when Zelda looks at the murals it says “This depiction definately suggests the the Zonai descended from the heavens, it is said that my ancestors, the first of Hyrule, They were born from the union with the gods who had descended from the heavens. This mural suggests the same legend that it is the Zonai who are the gods. They must have formed relationships to establish the kingdom of Hyrule!” (Zelda, Tears of the Kingdom)

Here is the video:



Watch starting 6:47 to 7:48 of vid^

 

[Spiritual Mask Salesman]

Its at the beginning when Zelda looks at the murals it says “This depiction definately suggests the the Zonai descended from the heavens, it is said that my ancestors, the first of Hyrule, They were born from the union with the gods who had descended from the heavens. This mural suggests the same legend that it is the Zonai who are the gods. They must have formed relationships to establish the kingdom of Hyrule!” (Zelda, Tears of the Kingdom)

Here is the video:



Watch starting 6:47 to 7:48 of vid^

I think you're interpreting this wrong. The mural before this specific one, Zelda says "This is similar to the statues we saw earlier - a Zonai. And these figures look like Hylians. This depiction certainly suggests that the Zonai descended from the heavens." And so forth.

The mural shows the Hylians already existed, the Zonai did not make the Hylians, they only helped the Hylians create the kingdom of Hyrule.

 

[Daku Rinku]

I think you're interpreting this wrong. The mural before this specific one, Zelda says "This is similar to the statues we saw earlier - a Zonai. And these figures look like Hylians. This depiction certainly suggests that the Zonai descended from the heavens." And so forth.

The mural shows the Hylians already existed, the Zonai did not make the Hylians, they only helped the Hylians create the kingdom of Hyrule.

Zelda is clear in her words that I cited, that the gods made union and created the Kingdom of Hyrule.

 

[Daku Rinku]

The Japanese Tranacript reads:
“Are you okay, Link? This mural… Within the royal family’s archives, it is recorded that in a period of myth long ago from today, there was a great war between people and the demon king battling for domination over the world… Perhaps this is a depiction of that folklore… with the Zonai tribe that was depicted in the statue before… This looks like us Hylians… It appears like the Zonai tribe descended from the heavens. My ancestor, the founder of Hyrule’s royal family… It is said that they were born from a union with gods who descended from heaven. If you believe this mural those relatives that descended from heaven were the Zonai tribe… This country flourished shortly after relations between this family and the Hylians of the land… Hyrule Kingdom… But then an evil being appears and steals the kingdom’s great power… Everything matches the contents of the archives… And then the Demon King is born… A battle occurred to overthrow it… If the person depicted here is the one called the Demon King… Amazing… This is the great war recorded in the archives after all… It’s a mural depicting the full story of the sealing war! Link! This is a huge discovery! Thank goodness I brought this which Purah made. It’s very useful for recording stuff like this. You can’t see if from here because it’s buried… What the heck’s going on here…? I think the answer is over there. Let’s continue ahead now, Link.”
The English Version tweaks this information. It indicates the Hylians are from the union of the gods,
“My ancestor, the founder of Hyrule’s royal family… It is said that they were born from a union with gods who descended from heaven.”

I do concede it seems the gods got together with a Prot-Hylian race or Hylians before they became Hylians as we know them, though I recall the pointed ears of the Hylians csme from the Zonai in another cut scene.