Smash Bros Anyone else annoyed with the whole "Echo-Fighter" thing?

[RamboBambiBambo]

Okay.
So I can only imagine it going like this in the Nintendo Offices during the development of the roster.

"We have have room to add in 24 characters and 11 of them are going to be DLC fighters........but we only have enough time to implement 6 new fighters at launch.....what are we going to do?"

*silence fills the board room as the team thinks of ideas on how to achieve their development goals while staying on budget and without putting their staff into over-crunch. Finally, Gary stands up and says his idea*

"ECHO-FIGHTERS! Fans have been wanting alternate costumes for characters for a long time. So... why not make these alternate costumes their own characters? We are planning to put in Dark Samus right? Well, she is a Phazon hybrid of Metroid Prime and Samus so it makes sense that they would have the same moveset right?"

"..................Gary....... we are promoting you to Harry because THAT IS GENIUS !!"

But seriously, Echo-Fighters are kind of annoying if you think about it.

Back in Smash Bros Melee we received Falco who was a compliment to Fox. BUT Falco possessed similar standard moves and special moves, but they were varied enough to make him unique enough to make him feel different and his own character rather than a render-swap. Brawl later did the same thing again by adding in Wolf.

Melee also had Adult Link and Young Link, which changed moves and speed of the character. Brawl eventually added Toon Link who was floatier and had the agility to push off walls to climb maps.
Dr. Mario is ENTIRELY DIFFERENT from Mario and Luigi, despite him just being Mario with a new outfit.
Pikachu had Pichu as a character that did mostly the same, but with higher damage at the cost of hurting yourself with some of your moves.
Brawl had Lucas join Ness from the Mother/Earthbound series, and their special moves were opposites; with Ness being Fire-based and Lucas being Ice-based.

But when Smash Ultimate came around... things changed. Echo-Fighters are just characters that share the same exact moveset as the character they are based off of. The only things that are altered are models, taunts, audio, and some visual special effects from their specials.

• Samus has Dark Samus.
• Peach has Daisy
• Marth has Lucina
• Roy has Crom
• Pit has Dark Pit
• Ryu has Ken
• Simon Belmont has Richter Belmont

Honestly, imagine if they announced that even more fighters were to be added as an update to the game.... only for them to be the main characters in alternate costumes yet still having the same moveset? Like imagine -

• Dark Link to compliment Link
• Metal Sonic to compliment Sonic
• Big Boss to compliment Snake
• Squall to compliment Cloud
• Prince Fluff to compliment Kirby
• Biker Warrior is now updated to be separate from Wario
• Ms. Pac-Man to compliment Pac-Man
• X to compliment Mega Man
• Dixie Kong to compliment Donkey Kong
• Julius Belmont or Trevor Belmont as ANOTHER Simon Echo-Fighter

To be honest? I would have rather we had gotten actual new characters instead of Echo-Fighters. Just have the Echo-Fighters be optional costumes that you could equip to the characters that change them visually, audibly, and their taunts RATHER than taking up a slot on the board. We have 7 Echo-Fighters who could've been their own moveset rather than copying the movesets of others.

Heck if they were made into alternate costumes, then do you know what that would mean? If their goal was to have 13 new characters at the game's launch, they could've done any of the following to be their own character to fill up the 7 slots taken up by the Echo-Fighters -

1. Waluigi - Mario Bros franchise
2. Raiden - Metal Gear Franchise
3. Alucard - Castlevania franchise
4. Linkle - Zelda franchise
5. Tails - Sonic franchise
6. Nightmare - Soul Calibur franchise
7. Captain Toad - Mario Bros franchise
8. Wolf Link - Zelda franchise
9. Sackboy - Little Big Planet franchise
10. Rayman - Rayman franchise
11. Spyro - Spyro franchise
12. Crash Bandicoot - Crash franchise
13. Dante Vain - Devil May Cry franchise
14. Master Chief - Halo franchise
15. Doom Guy - Doom Franchise
16. Krystal - Starfox franchise
17. Eevee - Pokemon franchise
18. Tetra - Zelda franchise
19. Toon Ganon - Zelda franchise
20. Waddle Dee - Kirby franchise

There
I just named off seven potential additions that we could've had instead of Echo Fighters.
Or they could have at least modified the Echo-Fighter's attacks and damage outputs to make them different from their host-fighter.

Anyone else miffed by this?

EDIT - added 8 and beyond to the list of potential fighters they could've added instead of Echo-Fighters

 

[Mikey the Moblin]

No

 

[Link&Midna]

I feel like we should be grateful for whatever we get tbh, or at least not mad about it. I cant see the "waste of a slot" argument because it's not like those echo fighter slots could have been taken by more unique characters, it's more likely that we'd just have less characters in the first place

 

[twilitfalchion]

I don't mind them at all. I think it's a neat concept. Can't go wrong with more content in a game like Smash.

 

[ExLight]

I'm not a Smash expert, but in Fighting games these characters with extremely similar playstyles and movesets, usually called Clones by the communities, have always been a thing, and it has never been something purely 100% aesthetic save for some really rare early exceptions. From what I understand, "Echo Fighters" is just an official nomenclature given in Smash to to these characters that are closely related in playstyle and build, which is hardly something new.

Take the Street Fighter franchise, as an example. They have quite a few characters that fit the Shoto archetype (i.e. Sakura, Sagat, Oni, Dan, etc...) with some even having a decently good amount of similarities as a whole (ex: Ryu, Evil Ryu, Ken, Akuma), although quite a few factors can make them different from each other such as (but not limited to) a few different animations, moves, supers/ultras/skills, target combos, recovery, speed, frame data, damage output, health, weight/floatness, and hitboxes. If I'm not mistaken I think this aspect of Street Fighter got translated pretty well in Smash, because if I'm not mistaken Ryu and Ken are the Echo Fighters with the most differences?

I can guarantee you that most Echo Fighters in Smash will be different from their counterpart in at least a few of the ways mentioned above, even if very very slightly. And no matter how small these differences are, they will affect match-ups and the outcome of some battles; due to that, people like competitive players *will* take these into consideration as stuff always boils down to minor details and that alone is enough reason to be careful on how to treat clones in the game. I think it's also worth pointing out that gradually changing them into more unique characters usually takes multiple game iterations of the franchise to happen, something that Smash still hasn't really got the time or maybe even the confidence to do so.

A bit of a side note, but I feel like it's extremely weird to point fingers at the Echo Characters and complain that they're not alternate costumes and say that they could've been replaced by other characters. Isn't the very core of your argument that the characters are too similar to existing ones? Then why would someone compare the creation of tweaked color palette model and a couple different animations with the development of a whole new character, which involves obtaining the rights, a ton of bureaucracy between companies or teams, creating a new model from scratch, conceptualizing and animating an entire moveset, getting voice acting, trying to come with original mechanics, balancing, presenting, and releasing related content? Phew. No, it's not even remotely comparable. Just because both would fill a single slot it doesn't mean the amount of effort put into both would be the same, and using this argument as an excuse to plug your favorite characters that didn't make the cut is just senseless.

Yea, the differences are extremely minor to the existing pairings. Am I annoyed both characters exist separately? No, not really. The difference might be the way they scratch their asses while idling, it's still a something that might affect a match. After splitting them I'd still prefer them giving the clone a pseudo-character terminology such as Echo Fighter over straight up considering them a separate new character ignoring the fact they're mostly the same; or the even worse - leaving something as a alternate costume/color that potentially has advantage over the others, because that would be bull.

And the developers can always expand on the differences later — instead of complaining that these Echo Characters made into the game or are a thing, I feel like people should be asking for them to get tweaked in the ways I already mentioned as updates go on so they're less like their counterparts. Due to that, I'd personally have categorized Pichu/Pikachu, Lucas/Ness, and Toon Link/Young Link/Adult Link as Echos (and maybe Mario/Dr. Mario but they're from different series' so I guess it's understandable) because that's the kinda differences I'd still expect from Echo Fighters.

The ideal solution to me? Everyone has at least one alternate character costume, with the exact same everything game-relevant; some have Echo Fighters with more relevant differences; and we have a custom color edit tool, which is a real thing in multiple fighting games by now, so we can make our own references in color schemes.

.

 

[Fraxinus]

The way I see it is, there are people who pick their mains based on the identity of a character and either their passion for that character or the series they're from, and there are people who pick their mains based on the way a character plays, regardless of their feelings about that character's source game.

Echo fighters are meant for the former, as a way to give some popular characters a chance to be included, despite their mostly reused moveset, the people who were happy about their inclusion are just happy they're playable. For people who pick mains based in movesets, also could use them to nitpick certain properties between the two characters, such as Lucina's lack of a tipper mechanic, or Dark Samus having an actual roll.

You can't please everyone. People who didn't get their dream character even after the DLC was implemented, would probably be totally okay getting that character, even if it meant having an existing moveset.

I don't feel strongly about echo fighters in either direction, but I don't think it's necessary for them to give every single character an echo fighter to sell the concept. If the echoes are gonna be of characters that aren't highly requested, then it kind of defeats the purpose of having them there.

 

[thePlinko]

I have 3 issues with echoes when they’re not implemented well.

First off, they’re almost never different enough to warrant existing as a separate character as opposed to an alt.

Yes, clones have existed for a long time, but they generally have a few mechanical differences, certain echoes do not.

Daisy, Dark Samus, and Richter have close to no mechanical differences. This isn’t a “they have same-ish looking specials so they’re the same” kinda deal, they literally have the exact same moveset, frame data, and physics. If you’re going to make these characters the exact same, why even bother programming them in as separate characters?

My second issue is that having a character in as an echo severely limits any chances they have of becoming a fully fledged character in the future. You saw Ganondorf, it took him 20 years to just get some new Smash attacks, and he’s still not fully decloned. Imagine how long it will take characters like Dark Samus to actually get a full moveset.

And finally, they are incredibly loose on who is considered a separate character and who isn’t. Realistically speaking, the space furries, one of the midget links, and Dr.Mario should all be considered “Echoes.”

I get why Ken is considered an Echo, but that doesn’t change the fact that there are more differences between him and Ryu than all of the characters listed above and their counterparts.

Hell, there are more differences between Roy and Chrom than there are between Marth and Roy, and yet somehow Chrom is the echo.

I don’t dislike the idea of Echoes, but I think that they were implemented horribly, and it just makes me wish that they weren’t even included and the development time was spent fleshing out the base roster better instead.

 

[RamboBambiBambo]

In my opinion, the Echo Fighters should've been similar to Fox/Falco/Wolf, Pikachu/Pichu, Link/Young Link/Toon Link, Ness/Lucas, and of course - Mario/Luigi.

These sets of characters are mostly the same. But yet, they are different enough to warrant the changes that make them diverse enough as characters.

Fox is the standard speedy-boy who blitzes around the arena with his moveset. Falco has a very similar moveset, but his damage-per-second is adjusted and his specials are tweaked. Meanwhile Wolf has slow hitting attacks but they strike with more damage-per-hit and if memory serves me correctly (i haven't encountered a Wolf player in a LONG time), his blaster shots deal a brief stunning effect. Also, Fox is considered a weight baseline among the characters with Wolf being heavier and thus a little harder to launch while Falco is a bird and is thus lighter and easier to launch.

Pikachu and Pichu are quite similar. But Pichu is smaller and thus faster. And Pichu's electrical attacks deal more damage than Pikachu's, however they will cause Pichu some self-harm as a balancing point that matches the Pokedex entries about Pichu.

Link is your standard fare as he has been for years for the most part. Young Link has a slightly tweaked moveset and he is smaller, therefore faster and a little easier to launch but harder to hit thanks to his size but at the cost of having less reach with his sword. Toon Link shares the same moves, but has the aspect of being floaty. Sure this makes him much easier to launch, but it allows him to angle around above and in the air. Plus with the fact that Toon Link vaults off of walls unlike Link and Young Link; he gets even more of a high-ground advantage on some arenas.

Ness and Lucas share pretty much all aspects, except for a few special attacks. Ness uses PK Fire while Lucas uses PK Freeze and uses his reflector down-special in a different manner than Ness; as Ness can deploy his to cover his body while Lucas has to be facing whatever he wishes to reflect, exposing him to strikes from behind, above, and below.

Mario and Luigi are the OG Clones of Smash. Luigi was one of the original unlockable characters, sharing much of the same moves as Mario. But his attacks were altered for the most part when it came to the classics down-smash and up-special. Mario has heavily been changed since his moveset shift in Smash Bros Brawl, while Luigi's moves have remained mostly the same with a few additions.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Had Echo-Fighters for the most part been something like this, I think it would be somewhat less of an issue in Smash Ultimate. Echo-Fighter changes are too subtle in my opinion. Dark Samus has an interesting electrical reaction when it comes to flames. Crom switches out one of his special moves with Roy so they don't share the same moveset. But they are far too minimal of a change.

Here is how I would do the Echo-Fighters to keep them interesting tweaks off of the base character -

• Dark Samus levitates just above the ground. Ergo, she should be easier to launch than Samus. And instead of missiles, Dark Samus should deploy Phazon Gas Bombs that create a brief area-denial as a toxic cloud of Phazon will envelop the area.
• Daisy should be similar to the changes made to Luigi from Mario. She should have some of her smash attacks and specials tweaked to have them work differently than Peach. For example, her golf-club should be a wedge to send enemies flying upwards rather than a wide-arc.
• Lucina is very much like her ancestor Marth. However, she is from a separate time period. Perhaps some of her specials should be altered versions of the ones that Marth makes use of, allowing either more reach with an attack. As for her Neutral Special, I think she should have a quicker charge up at the cost of less damage while also jumping with her lunge to give her more distance with said attack.
• Crom is more muscular than Roy. So I believe his strikes should hit a bit harder than Roy's and he should be a little bit more heavier. Ergo, he is harder to launch but it is also a challenge for him to get up in the air to strike at opponents above.
• Dark Pit should use Cursed Arrows rather than Holy Arrows. Players struck by Dark Pit's Arrows will have a slowness effect put onto them, reducing their mobility by 15%. Same jump height, but they will reach that height slowly.
• Ken should have a higher attack speed than Ryu, but at the cost of having less damage-per-hit. To give Ken an advantage over Ryu other than this, he should also be able to jump slightly higher with his initial jump, while his Double Jump will still be the same distance between the top height of the Initial Jump and the Double Jump's - giving Ryu players a high-ground playstyle alternative to their character.
• Richter uses a Steel Chain version of the Vampire Whip. Therefore his whip attacks should be a little slower than Simon's Leather Vampire Killer. A slower whipping speed while an increased damage as a metal chain lashes at opponents. Some of his specials should be adjusted a little as well. For example, Holy Water causing blue flames to glide forward from where the bottle smashes and to briefly damage players who enter the fires. Bonus damage to Dark enemy types such as Dark Pit, Ganondorf, and Bayonetta.

 

[Azure Sage]

I'm fine with them. In most cases I ended up liking the echo more, so I hope they don't get cut. Lucina especially is one of my mains and I like her a lot more than Marth.

 

[A Link In Time]

Chrom is a good example of how to handle an echo fighter. He borrows moves from both Roy and Ike, which makes him more distinct than fighters that barely change anything, like Daisy.

 

[Bloody Kun]

I’d rather have less characters than have more clones. Ganondorf, Toon Link, Dark Samus etc. all have plenty of material to draw from for their own movesets…but no instead we get bland ass steve

 

[Link&Midna]

I’d rather have less characters than have more clones. Ganondorf, Toon Link, Dark Samus etc. all have plenty of material to draw from for their own movesets…

makes sense

but no instead we get bland ass steve

but how does this even relate?

 

[Bloody Kun]

Because it’s wasted time and resources. Their priorities are not in the right place. Hell, Waluigi the joke character deserved to be in before that travesty.

 

[thePlinko]

Because it’s wasted time and resources. Their priorities are not in the right place. Hell, Waluigi the joke character deserved to be in before that travesty.

You could’ve chosen any character to call a “waste of time and resources,” and yet you chose the only good character in the entire pass.

 

[Mikey the Moblin]

Because it’s wasted time and resources. Their priorities are not in the right place. Hell, Waluigi the joke character deserved to be in before that travesty.

Ewww waluigi