Twilight Princess I Think It's the Weakest Zelda

[bigflyingpotato]

I like Midna, but I don't get why people like her better the second half of the game. I just feel like her personality drops. I didn't miss all the "hee hee"s, but she was funny the first half. That's why I like Ezlo so much. To me it's like saying somebody likes Navi because of her personality, she didn't much have one, she just told you where to go and how to kill monsters. King of Red Lions is instantly awesome because he's a freaking talking boat, but other than that he just tells you what's up.
Anyway, the Hyrule Fields were a bit bare even though there was usually a way to cross them quickly (warping, running as a wolf or Epona) but I'd argue that Ocarina of Time's field was almost completely bare, and without Epona it takes forever to cross. Just throwing that out there.
The game was a bit easy, but it brings to mind how many games did you play before Twilight Princess? I've seen something interesting once saying that to people who haven't played many video games, games like Twilight Princess will be hard for them. Whereas people who've played Majora's Mask or Oracle of Ages or something considered harder than Twilight Princess, are more skilled gamers and the game won't be so much of a challenge. The game was hard for me when I first played it since I hadn't played many games at that point, but now after playing other games it's easier.
I'll agree with you on the items, ball and chain, dominion rod, spinner, hawkeye, fishing rod, etc. You use them in one temple or for one mini game and then you're done.
I thought it was a good game, not my favorite but not my least favorite 3d. Forgive my rambling.

 

[Shadsie]

I've already been on this thread and have given my defense of Twilight Princess, but I *will* agree with detractors on *one item.*

The Spinner. Man, I feel like the Spinner was so useless. It was used for more than its home-temple and could be used to get a couple of heart pieces out in the field, but it ran out of "spin" too quick. without a gear-wall around, you got on it, and bascially spin-farted a few times, then it was done. So much missed potential! It could have been great as a field-weapon (since you could hurt things with it) if it only gave you more spin! As I was telling my guy while he played the game for the first time - "I hate the Spinner. It is the stupiest item EVER." Strangely enough, I even enjoyed the much-detracted Dominion Rod more. Control of giant statues! Bwwahahaa!

I love TP, but would like to see more item-strength/usfefulness in future Zelda games, or at least, I hope not to see a return of the Spinner.

 

[DuckNoises]

I've already been on this thread and have given my defense of Twilight Princess, but I *will* agree with detractors on *one item.*

The Spinner. Man, I feel like the Spinner was so useless. It was used for more than its home-temple and could be used to get a couple of heart pieces out in the field, but it ran out of "spin" too quick. without a gear-wall around, you got on it, and bascially spin-farted a few times, then it was done. So much missed potential! It could have been great as a field-weapon (since you could hurt things with it) if it only gave you more spin! As I was telling my guy while he played the game for the first time - "I hate the Spinner. It is the stupiest item EVER." Strangely enough, I even enjoyed the much-detracted Dominion Rod more. Control of giant statues! Bwwahahaa!

I agree with you here. I was excited with the Spinner, and I was excited to use it outside of Arbiter's Grounds, yet the opportunity rarely presented itself. It felt very much like a missed opportunity. I really enjoyed usingAlthough, going on a tangent, I very much enjoyed Arbiter's Grounds as a dungeon; it was much more enjoyable than all of the other TP dungeons. Arbiter's Grounds and Snowpeak Manor (if I'm remembering the name correctly) were designed very well; Arbiter's Grounds felt like several throwbacks to previous games at once, while Snowpeak Manor was something truly fresh and unique, that hadn't been done in a Zelda game before. I felt that those two dungeons really showed the potential of the game, but what disappointed me is that I never saw anything near the same quality for the rest of the game.

Anyway, the Hyrule Fields were a bit bare even though there was usually a way to cross them quickly (warping, running as a wolf or Epona) but I'd argue that Ocarina of Time's field was almost completely bare, and without Epona it takes forever to cross. Just throwing that out there.

While I acknowledge that you are correct that OoT's Hyrule Field was pretty bare, it was much more of an achievement in its day. It was something of unprecedented size and majesty at release, with the first in-game night/day changes (and subsequent gameplay changes based on the time of day), and everything that you could see in the distance would be possible to reach. Every little detail wasn't there merely for appearance, they often served a specific function. While OoT's Hyrule Field does seem bare, it actually has far more things to do (relative to its size) in comparison to TP's Hyrule Field. The problem with TP's Hyrule Field is that it didn't hold quite the same feeling, perhaps because it wasn't so bare; it didn't give you the same impression that you got when you left Kokiri Forest in OoT -- that there was this vast world outside of you that was accessible this whole time, and that, all of a sudden, the world had just opened itself up to you. (I figure this is also a nifty little metaphor for Link's "coming of age," so to speak, and finally leaving his sheltered home to discover the sheer size and majesty of the world)

 

[Ventus]

TP is a weak Zelda, but not weaker (in my opinion) than ST or PH. TP was too simple, too easy. No enemy besides King Bulbin does over a heart of damage, the items are NOT useful outside of their dungeons (except the D Clawshot, Spinner [sometimes], and probably bottles.). Even then, bottles aren't even required. The fact that a red potion heals 8 hearts, and it is available VERY early just ruined the game right there. In older games (MC and further back), having a potion, milk, fairy, or any other restoration item was regarded as a second life. In TP, they are pretty much there for looks. There were literally 2 sidequests in the game that could be considered "hard", yet they were incredibly simple in their own design yet again.

Also, I must say, Midna wasn't a good character at all (in my opinion). She pretty much ruined the story of TP. Her presence irked me to no end. In the beginning, she's some freak who pushes you around. Most say that by the middle, she gets better, but she is still pushing Link around even after her "change of heart". Even Navi or Tatl could've done better than that. TP was mainly for the graphics, it didn't feel too much like an adventure to me.

Had TP more dungeons (side dungeons), harder enemies, more puzzles, and a less empty Hyrule Field, then TP would be rated a lot higher than before. I remember watching a TP review on Toonami (that old Cartoon Network anime deal). They rated it 9.5/10, and called it spectacular. I thought so as well, because the graphics were amazing. When I first played it, I felt it was awesome. But, by endgame, I felt it was just one of those throwaway titles, never to be seen again lest you have some urge to open your basement's chest of wonders. I know for sure that it was rushed, else they would've made the enemies deal more damage. The Cave of Ordeals is the only challenging area in the entire game.

I'd rate TP probably 6/10 vs other Zelda games, it was just too easy, a point I make a bazillion times.

 

[StrangeWig]

I got very disappointed with the spinner too. And does anybody know if this thing can be used as a weapon at all? Because, when I saw it, I instantly imagined myself cruising Hyrule and killing some bad guys with it's spin. I tried so a lot of times but nothing happened (usually, I would be the one being hit).

While I acknowledge that you are correct that OoT's Hyrule Field was pretty bare, it was much more of an achievement in its day. It was something of unprecedented size and majesty at release, with the first in-game night/day changes (and subsequent gameplay changes based on the time of day), and everything that you could see in the distance would be possible to reach. Every little detail wasn't there merely for appearance, they often served a specific function. While OoT's Hyrule Field does seem bare, it actually has far more things to do (relative to its size) in comparison to TP's Hyrule Field. The problem with TP's Hyrule Field is that it didn't hold quite the same feeling, perhaps because it wasn't so bare; it didn't give you the same impression that you got when you left Kokiri Forest in OoT -- that there was this vast world outside of you that was accessible this whole time, and that, all of a sudden, the world had just opened itself up to you. (I figure this is also a nifty little metaphor for Link's "coming of age," so to speak, and finally leaving his sheltered home to discover the sheer size and majesty of the world)

Totally agreed. Entering Hyrule's Field for the first time and watching the sunset in OoT, is actually one of the best memories I have from gaming. And I think one fact is very important: OoT's Hyrule Field was big, TP's Hyrule Field was HUGE! The difference is staggering! TP's one must be four times bigger (or even more) than the original from OoT. That's MUCH more empty space!

 

[triforce88]

It may not be as good as OoT but I don't think it's the weakest Zelda game. I think some of the handheld games are weaker.

 

[Midna666]

I disagree. I think that Twilight Princess is a great game(even better then OOT).
It has some creative dungeons. Snowpeak Ruins was a breath of fresh air far as dungeon designs go.
And storywise I felt that the game has a great story. There's one scene in Ordona Village(when you first return there as Wolf Link)where you see Bo, and Jaggle talking about there village being attacked by the monsters. Bo was going to look for the missing kids. Plus there's the cutscene where Renado is trying make the kids feel better. Plus there's Telma, and her group, who come together, and help Link. Never before have we seen so many people in Hyrule come together before. In OOT, the people seemed lifeless, and indifferent to Ganondorf ruling Hyrule.

The only thing that I found wrong with the game was the sidequests. In TP, the sidequest were pretty boring.

But all in all I think that Twilight Princess is one of the strongest games in the series.

 

[Ventus]

That was the only thing that actually gave TP some points in the "WINNER!" area. The cutscenes were a nice addition to Zelda, but it wasn't anything too spectacular. Snowpeak was basically another Snowhead, as far as the elements of the dungeon go (pounding/moving blocks). The NPCs were far less lifeless AND interactive in TP than in OoT. In OoT, they actually had reason to be glum. They knew that Ganondorf would eventually attack Kakariko and other areas that were considered "safe". I'm not going to compare the game to OoT so much, because there are other Zelda games that are better in OoT in some departments (even ALttP, which I loathe). I'm just trying to point out that TP wasn't so great at all. It wasn't an OoT-redone. It had it's improvements in some areas, but relied too much on graphics rather than gameplay.

 

[bigflyingpotato]

While I acknowledge that you are correct that OoT's Hyrule Field was pretty bare, it was much more of an achievement in its day. It was something of unprecedented size and majesty at release, with the first in-game night/day changes (and subsequent gameplay changes based on the time of day), and everything that you could see in the distance would be possible to reach. Every little detail wasn't there merely for appearance, they often served a specific function. While OoT's Hyrule Field does seem bare, it actually has far more things to do (relative to its size) in comparison to TP's Hyrule Field. The problem with TP's Hyrule Field is that it didn't hold quite the same feeling, perhaps because it wasn't so bare; it didn't give you the same impression that you got when you left Kokiri Forest in OoT -- that there was this vast world outside of you that was accessible this whole time, and that, all of a sudden, the world had just opened itself up to you. (I figure this is also a nifty little metaphor for Link's "coming of age," so to speak, and finally leaving his sheltered home to discover the sheer size and majesty of the world)

I still make comparisons to Ocarina of Time like Hyrule Field, and usually whenever I'm right people tell me it was great for its time period. That's great, but that time period is over. If Ocarina of Time is still going to be credited as the greatest game ever, and things of it will be said like "everything about it was amazing" (not a direct quote) then I think it's fair to criticize some things. Though I will admit it was good for its time, that there wasn't something so massive and overwhelming at that point, but now there are other things to rival that.
You mentioned that it was amazing walking out into Hyrule Field the first time and being overwhelmed by the vast world presented to you, can't the same be said of Wind Waker and Twilight Princess? Playing Twilight Princess before Ocarina of Time, I thought seeing the first Hyrule Field, and looking at my map and seeing the huge masses of land I've yet to explore was amazing. Same for Wind Waker, the first time you set sail to Dragon Roost from Windfall, you put up your sail and epic music starts playing and you can see beautiful blue seas and mysterious islands in the distance, and you get that wonderful feeling that an epic adventure has only just begun.
I'll admit that there were a lot of decorations as opposed to things like holes in Ocarina of Time that would usually just hold 20 rupees. But remembering Hyrule field from OoT, there were some holes, some fences to hop, Lon Lon Ranch, some giant monsters, and decorations. You make it sound like everything in Hyrule Field is meaningful and leads to at least 5 minutes of fun.
I hope I don't sound rude or anything, it's just nice to debate now and again

 

[Hanyou]

What some people are missing in the comparison is that the presentation in OoT and TWW is totally different. OoT opens up much of the world to us from the very beginning, while still leaving some places unexplored; it feels massive because there really is so much to do from the start, and just enough hidden to pique the gamer's curiosity (heck, the entirety of Gerudo Valley remains to be explored). While there were some arbitrary obstacles like the boulders in Zora River, the game did not assault you at every turn with these obstacles to progress, which made it feel much less linear. Part of this is probably due to the game's two-part design, which gives it a slight advantage; but TP should have done something to compensate for the more linear progression.

Emptiness itself is not so much a problem as lack of interesting things to do in the game. People argue that the Great Sea in TWW was empty, and I agree; but I found it compelling because its design encouraged constant exploration and there were plenty of secrets, perhaps more than any other Zelda game. OoT's field was empty, yes; but as a gateway to more densely populated regions that offered tightly-packed minigames and sidequests of their own, its emptiness was extremely refreshing and its design helped polish the overall experience. TP's field was nothing, and its corridors led to slightly less nothing in the towns; furthermore, its linear design and constant restrictions inhibited the overall experience and made it feel both limiting and empty, something neither OoT nor TWW suffered from, regardless of what other weaknesses you believe their overworlds had.

So the overworld's design in TP was arguably a perfect storm of mediocrity; it was not one element that hurt the design, but several.

Also, a slightly off-topic sidenote directed at bigflyingpotato: a lot of people, including myself, believe OoT stacks up quite strongly against even modern games in pretty much every way. The visual style, the music, and the gameplay is all tight and perfect for what we're presented with, even if it might not be 80 hours long. For that, I think it still deserves credit, and I feel no need to apologize or compensate for its age. Indeed, some 8-bit games are still stunning, so a game released only 12 years ago (hardly "retro" at all) isn't any less brilliant.

 

[DuckNoises]

I don't think TP is a bad game -- quite the contrary -- it's a great game. The biggest problem though is that it could have done so much more. That's what I feel is the problem with its inconsistency; it shows you how great it can be, and then it segues into a much weaker portion of the game that doesn't look like it had much effort put into it. It gives you a great high, but the crash feels so much worse when it doesn't feel like there were any measures taken to prevent it. It's more of a matter that the game showed such great potential early on in the game, but it felt to me like it stopped expanding on what it had already achieved.

And storywise I felt that the game has a great story. There's one scene in Ordona Village(when you first return there as Wolf Link)where you see Bo, and Jaggle talking about there village being attacked by the monsters. Bo was going to look for the missing kids. Plus there's the cutscene where Renado is trying make the kids feel better. Plus there's Telma, and her group, who come together, and help Link. Never before have we seen so many people in Hyrule come together before. In OOT, the people seemed lifeless, and indifferent to Ganondorf ruling Hyrule.

Warning! OoT Spoilers.

Indifferent? The whole point is that they couldn't resist, or else there would be hell to pay. Ganondorf was an unrelenting, brutal autocrat; Machiavelli once said that "It's often safer to make someone fear you than it is to make them trust you." That expresses what Ganondorf was doing; anyone that tried to resist faced the threat of utter eradication. Look at what happened to the Gorons; they tried to act against him, and they were almost wiped out in there entirety. He froze Zora's Domain so they couldn't rebel, and made it that if the Kokiri left their homes, they would be killed by monsters while trying to escape. He already massacred half of Castle Town, and the remnants (after moving to Kakariko Village) were pinned inside their homes because Bongo Bongo was escaping. They didn't try to resist because they couldn't; Ganondorf was a constant threat. He'd made it pretty clear that anyone who resisted would be crushed.
There were those that did resist -- the Sages. Each went out of their way to try and solve the crises surrounding their communities, and almost all of them were enveloped in it.
(Spoilers end here)


Edit (after long absence from typing):
In regards to bigflyingpotato:
I should mention that I finished Twilight Princess in its entirety before I even owned OoT. Granted, I had played very small bits and pieces of it over a very long time span, but I had played very little of it overall. I was still disappointed in much of Twilight Princess even before playing OoT; even without a comparison, TP has its flaws, and those are universal flaws, that don't need to be compared at all to OoT to be judged. I felt there were certain areas where it came short, and it could have done better. A lot of these views are retrospective, and I noticed how much more I liked OoT after I finally bought it a little less than a year after finishing TP. I felt that many elements of OoT still felt superior to TP, despite its age.

This brings me to my next point. Great games are great, no matter when you play them. Something that every gamer should do is think retrospectively and appreciate what results have come from the past's innovations and see how they were be built upon. The same can also be said for the opposite; every gamer should also look into new games and see spots where things weren't built upon when they clearly should have been. A great game transcends time, and what a great game is made of can be very different things for different people. Nonetheless, there are universal gems, and people can spot them and see their brilliance regardless of how old they are. The same can be said of any person, place, or thing. An understanding of the past provides an uncanny understanding of the present, and that is something that should be embraced.

 

[Anaribia]

....The reason I didn't like TP as much is simple: the gameplay is not on par with it's predecessors. For an easy comparison, most of the dungeons in TP are completely straightforward and VERY simple. They really dissapointed me in this department, as with the other titles, like OoT and LttP, the dungeons were way more complex, and you actually got relieved after you found the map and the compass to guide you. The only dungeon that truly satisfied me in TP, was the Lakebed Temple (and I thought Arbiter Grounds was pretty decent).
....Well, TP still had some very good stuff about it, and an aspect I really appreciated was it's characters. TP had some really good characters, like Ilia, Yeta/Yeto, Colin, Renado, Telma, Prince Ralis, Aghita, Beth, Hena, etc, and I still think they could have done some more about all of them. I got sort of sad because Zelda didn't have much of a participation in the story, I mean, she was important, but we barelly talked to her throughout the adventure.

And them there's Midna, holy ****!!! <3

She starts of as an irritating girl that orders you around, but after the first portion of the game, she makes up for everything she said, and by the end, there's absolutely no way you don't love her! :xd:
Seriously, as much as this game has a few flaws, Midna's character compensates all of them! She's even hotter than Zelda (in the end, of course! ), and I simply can't sleep anymore after seeing that ending!....

I think gameplay is really my only big complaint about TP...the dungeons were very easy, but at the same time, I think this was a useful accident for Nintendo! Why this is is becuase the Wii appeals to all sorts of age groups, thus, a lot of newbies bought it, then went out looking for games for it. They'd pick up a copy of Zelda, and could catch on quickly, because the game is easy enough for a newb to easly beat (and easy enough to be enjoyable for them). They could then learn of more titles online, buy those games and BOOM--a brand new Zelda fan. xD
I would say one of the strongest point of TP was its insane character build-up. So much detail is put into the background of each character--how Hena, Iza, and Coro end up being sibilings, Agitha's creepily sensing "pheromones" of bugs on you, Colin moving from boyhood to manhood, the list goes on (If you'd like, I actually can...I pick up on characters well. xD ) Of course, the grand champion of most amazing characters without a doubt goes to Midna! Midna was just a stroke of brilliance brought out from Nintendo; the character was made SO well and brings out all sorts of emotions in the player!
And I'm not sure about her being "hot" though...I'm a girl, and am not interested in other girls...I'll take your word for it I suppose! xD haha!

 

[Meego]

I agree with your opinion...in some ways.

I am part way through Twilight Princess and I can't really be bothered to continue. It isn't entirely obvious where you have to go an dit is really dark and dreary. It kind of bores me really. I also find the collection of the light bugs tedious and pointless.

 

[StrangeWig]

I think gameplay is really my only big complaint about TP...the dungeons were very easy, but at the same time, I think this was a useful accident for Nintendo! Why this is is becuase the Wii appeals to all sorts of age groups, thus, a lot of newbies bought it, then went out looking for games for it. They'd pick up a copy of Zelda, and could catch on quickly, because the game is easy enough for a newb to easly beat (and easy enough to be enjoyable for them). They could then learn of more titles online, buy those games and BOOM--a brand new Zelda fan. xD
I would say one of the strongest point of TP was its insane character build-up. So much detail is put into the background of each character--how Hena, Iza, and Coro end up being sibilings, Agitha's creepily sensing "pheromones" of bugs on you, Colin moving from boyhood to manhood, the list goes on (If you'd like, I actually can...I pick up on characters well. xD ) Of course, the grand champion of most amazing characters without a doubt goes to Midna! Midna was just a stroke of brilliance brought out from Nintendo; the character was made SO well and brings out all sorts of emotions in the player!
And I'm not sure about her being "hot" though...I'm a girl, and am not interested in other girls...I'll take your word for it I suppose! xD haha!

Well, then it's good you don't think she's hot!

By the way, when you said how Nintendo may have made TP easier to attract new players, specially the casual audience from the Wii, something that I always thought very important came to my mind: when we were kids, with absolutely no ability in gaming, we still played HARD games, and we enjoyed it!

To die three times in a game doesn't make it frustrating, and I can't believe someone would drop a game just because he/she died twice. What I mean is that making a game a little bit harder might actually fuel the casual player's desire to keep going for it. Giving the game a big learning curve would also help a lot in the process. The game "Klonoa", for PS1, is a good example of this. I remember the first levels were a cakewalk, but as you progressed through the game, it got harder and harder, until the final stages were extremely challenging.

I think a casual player doesn't need an easy game, what he needs is a game that doesn't confuse him!

 

[zack125]

Well, then it's good you don't think she's hot!

By the way, when you said how Nintendo may have made TP easier to attract new players, specially the casual audience from the Wii, something that I always thought very important came to my mind: when we were kids, with absolutely no ability in gaming, we still played HARD games

... and no internet, I might add.