TOTK Ganondorf and OOT Ganondorf cannot be the same

[YoungGanon23]

In OOT they reveal to us that Ganondorf is loyal to OOT Zelda father a Hylian King he comes to Hyrule to search for the Triforce the Deku Tree reveals that there was a Hyrulean Civil War in which OOT Ganondorf most likely participated OOT Link mother escaped from that War and trusted her son to the Deku Tree OOT Link is 10 years old at the beginning of the game so the Hyrulean Civil War was a recent event

in TOTK Ganondorf does not know the Triforce the Master Sword or the Goddesses it is revealed to us that he was present at the founding of Hyrule and that he is loyal to a Zonai King named Rauru i dont understand how TOTK Ganondorf could be the same Ganondorf from OOT so i think TOTK Ganondorf is a Reincarnation or an Ancestor of OOT Ganondorf or maybe TOTK Ganondorf is a variant of OOT Ganondorf caused by one of the Time Travel paradoxes of Skyward Sword maybe TOTK Ganondorf is part of a new timeline created by Skyward Sword in where the events of OOT never happened

 

[Lambsquirt]

My friend, Put your Bunny hood on.

The Legend of Zelda - Calling All Lore Nerds!! #3

Q). "Does Ganon Incarnate indefinitely every 100 years?" 1. YES! 2. No...... 3. Subject to "Circumstance". [Theory] Ganondorfs evil soul is Relentless. Never at peace. Every time he dies he Incarnates, and the 1 male every 100 years IS "Canon" Every 10 000 years he succeeds in Escaping (The...

zeldadungeon.net

 

[GZ Zelda]

In OOT they reveal to us that Ganondorf is loyal to OOT Zelda father a Hylian King he comes to Hyrule to search for the Triforce the Deku Tree reveals that there was a Hyrulean Civil War in which OOT Ganondorf most likely participated OOT Link mother escaped from that War and trusted her son to the Deku Tree OOT Link is 10 years old at the beginning of the game so the Hyrulean Civil War was a recent event

I think the OoT Civil War was Ganondorf against the other races of Hyrule who were all fighting. The scene we see of Ganondorf bending the knee to the king is him admitting defeat from the Hyrulean Civil War.

in TOTK Ganondorf does not know the Triforce the Master Sword or the Goddesses it is revealed to us that he was present at the founding of Hyrule and that he is loyal to a Zonai King named Rauru i dont understand how TOTK Ganondorf could be the same Ganondorf from OOT so i think TOTK Ganondorf is a Reincarnation or an Ancestor of OOT Ganondorf or maybe TOTK Ganondorf is a variant of OOT Ganondorf caused by one of the Time Travel paradoxes of Skyward Sword maybe TOTK Ganondorf is part of a new timeline created by Skyward Sword in where the events of OOT never happened

There's three theories here: TotK Ganondorf is before OoT, TotK Ganondorf is after OoT and TotK Ganondorf is on a different timeline to OoT.

If it's on a different timeline, then they obviously aren't related.

If TotK Ganondorf is before OoT, then OoT is muddled: Ganon's legacy would be that of death and destruction, one that the royal family would remember well, and his deception wouldn't make much sense. Pre-SS, it would mean he exists before Demise's curse, that he should have encountered Hylia in her goddess form, that the Goddess Sword should be somewhere around, that the Rito exist before Wind Waker. Pre-SS also means there are three Master Swords at certain points in Skyward Sword (one with Dragon Zelda, one with Link, one with Impa). That's kind of crazy.

If TotK Ganondorf is after OoT, there's a couple questions: in which timeline, and are they related? In a DT, it would be a post-Z2 refounding. In the CT, it would be a post-FSA refounding, and in the AT it would be a post-flood/ST refounding. The one that makes most sense for me is an Adult Timeline placement: the world is built on deku-like roots, the Triforce and Master Sword are obsolete, there are lush forests and the Rito are present.

DT is second most convincing, but I personally think Zelda 2 has Hyrule on the up-and-up with the completed Triforce, multiple well-populated settlements, and the most territory we've ever seen it have. A refounding after a major destruction doesn't work as well in DT compared to AT. And the CT makes no sense.

The only version I see where TotK Ganondorf is OoT Ganondorf is a post-Wind Waker flood, where Ganondorf is unsealed from the Master Sword and actively hides it. Ganondorf doesn't have his usual forehead scar, which makes this idea less likely, but I do think it's interesting that he has many of the same tactics as the OoT Ganondorf did (feigning ignorance, stealing a relic)

He seems relatively nonchalant about executing his plan: my initial read was that he has tried this before. I also think that his reaction to learning about Link, "Interesting, I look forward to meeting him" is pretty mild, as if he's been through this before. And his pity at the mythical "sword that seals the darkness" being so easily destroyed is him recognizing that this "Link" is weaker then the last two. His focus on being "unable to face a worthy opponent" is him having experienced worthy opponents before, and the line "thousands of years will pass in the blink of an eye" suggests that he has been through this "thousands of years" process before. This also explains why the Master Sword is missing in the past of Tears of the Kingdom: Ganondorf is intentionally hiding it as last time, it sealed him in stone.

I personally like the reading that every Ganondorf is the same Ganondorf, a consolidated vessel of Demise's hatred.
This goes OoT - WW - TotK past - FSA - TP - ALttP - OoX - ALBW - Z1 - BotW - TotK present.

TL;DR: No, canonically, TotK Ganondorf is likely not OoT Ganondorf, as TotK past probably takes place, canonically, way, way after Z2. But if they were to be the same, a post-flood TotK setting leaves the most likely possibility of them being the same.

 

[Lambsquirt]

Theres a of a lot of speculation and conjectire here GZ, i think u need to understand where the only "canon timeline split is"OOT"
The flood happened between OOT and Totk (Presant).
Me thinks you needa sit down and work out a few solid datums with me, if u would like clarification i will be happy for you to DM me

#1
"If TotK (PAST)"Demon King Ganondorf" is before OoT, then OoT is muddled: Ganon's legacy would be that of death and destruction, one that the royal family would remember well, and his deception wouldn't make much sense. Pre-SS, it would mean he exists before Demise's curse, that he should have encountered Hylia in her goddess form, that the Goddess Sword should be somewhere around, that the Rito exist before Wind Waker. Pre-SS also means there are three Master Swords at certain points in Skyward Sword (one with Dragon Zelda, one with Link, one with Impa). That's kind of crazy.

1A.
Conjecture.
In the 'canon lore" Ganon is a Gerudo,
The Gerudo life span is 100 years.
We have a canon calamity timeline of "10,000" years.

We are looking at a "Re-incarnation process of a "Mortal Gannon" not the "Demon King Ganon".
(his reason for "Perpetually" incarnating every 100 years "subject to circumstance." is being trapped by RARU.)
there is Circumstance being, if the "1 Gerudo male" incarnates and its not "Ganon" (E.G the Gerudo male in BOTW dressed like a woman and Groose)
Ganon does not have a host body, hence His malace Forms Take over!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

#2.
The Rito Evolving (1st seen) in "W/W".

2A. is also common conjecture,
Just because they were released in this game, it does not indicate their "Datum" on the timeline.
Totk Past and the first "Sealing of the Demon King Ganon" is the earliest we see the "Rito"
And the only "Canon timeline split" is at OOT.


you get my point you are missing the connecting of a few dots and haven't joined them properly, so it is understandable you will feel unresolved in your theorizing.

oh an btw was the flood natural? or "Ethereal" ("Dropped from the heavens by the Goddesses"?)
people need to stop looking at the flood like its a natural flood that would take "thousands of years" it is not.

 

[Bowsette Plus-Ultra]

oh an btw was the flood natural? or "Ethereal" ("Dropped from the heavens by the Goddesses"?)
people need to stop looking at the flood like its a natural flood that would take "thousands of years" it is not.

I don't think anyone has ever looked at it like that, especially since Wind Waker's introduction says it isn't.

 

[Lambsquirt]

R

I don't think anyone has ever looked at it like that, especially since Wind Waker's introduction says it isn't.

Referring to this for peoples theorizing of time estimates around the flood in W/W, just for clarification.
Some people might need the perspective. Thanks

 

[Ryuu Kage Desu]

The main argument I see for the two being the same, is literally the kneeling bit, something about smoke rings around Death Mountain, and a reference to a Sealing War. Seems like week reasoning to me. In my mind, there has never been a question about them being different.

Well, the thought had crossed my mind at the beginning of the game, but quickly lost that thought with the first contradiction.

 

[Bowsette Plus-Ultra]

The main argument I see for the two being the same, is literally the kneeling bit, something about smoke rings around Death Mountain, and a reference to a Sealing War. Seems like week reasoning to me. In my mind, there has never been a question about them being different.

Well, the thought had crossed my mind at the beginning of the game, but quickly lost that thought with the first contradiction.

I think I'd point to how the lore books treat Ganon as a singular entity whenever he appears. I've never read the encyclopedia, but Hyrule Historia treats Ganon as one guy and there isn't really anything to suggest otherwise outside of TotK's shoddy writing. Having the Ganon of TotK just be... some guy would be a very ****ty (and totally in character) move by Nintendo, but I think in this case it's just intended to be the same guy. I'd attribute the differences to how TotK treats BotW and every other entry in the franchise:

It pretends they don't exist.

 

[Lambsquirt]

The main argument I see for the two being the same, is literally the kneeling bit, something about smoke rings around Death Mountain, and a reference to a Sealing War. Seems like week reasoning to me. In my mind, there has never been a question about them being different.

Well, the thought had crossed my mind at the beginning of the game, but quickly lost that thought with the first contradiction.

i agree with Desu,
Its weird how some people don't use life expectancies that the Lore of the "Legend" Clearly makes Datum.
The interesting void methinks is some peoples inability to understand what a "Re-incarnation Process" is and the ties to Japanese Religious beliefs, cultural heritage and folk lore instilled in the realm of L.O.Z.

"Shinito" the worship of life (Hylia, The Godesses) and the affiliated Re-incarnation death process of "Buddhism" (Ganon, Zelda, Link)

 

[Ryuu Kage Desu]

I think I'd point to how the lore books treat Ganon as a singular entity whenever he appears. I've never read the encyclopedia, but Hyrule Historia treats Ganon as one guy and there isn't really anything to suggest otherwise outside of TotK's shoddy writing. Having the Ganon of TotK just be... some guy would be a very ****ty (and totally in character) move by Nintendo, but I think in this case it's just intended to be the same guy. I'd attribute the differences to how TotK treats BotW and every other entry in the franchise:

It pretends they don't exist.

Does the same idea hold true for when Ganondorf is confirmed, in game, to be a different person?

 

[Bowsette Plus-Ultra]

Does the same idea hold true for when Ganondorf is confirmed, in game, to be a different person?

I don't remember him being confirmed as a different person in game, but I might be misremembering.

 

[Moblinking5000]

In OOT they reveal to us that Ganondorf is loyal to OOT Zelda father a Hylian King he comes to Hyrule to search for the Triforce the Deku Tree reveals that there was a Hyrulean Civil War in which OOT Ganondorf most likely participated OOT Link mother escaped from that War and trusted her son to the Deku Tree OOT Link is 10 years old at the beginning of the game so the Hyrulean Civil War was a recent event

in TOTK Ganondorf does not know the Triforce the Master Sword or the Goddesses it is revealed to us that he was present at the founding of Hyrule and that he is loyal to a Zonai King named Rauru i dont understand how TOTK Ganondorf could be the same Ganondorf from OOT so i think TOTK Ganondorf is a Reincarnation or an Ancestor of OOT Ganondorf or maybe TOTK Ganondorf is a variant of OOT Ganondorf caused by one of the Time Travel paradoxes of Skyward Sword maybe TOTK Ganondorf is part of a new timeline created by Skyward Sword in where the events of OOT never happened

How do you know that TotK Ganondorf doesn't know about the Triforce? Him not mentioning it isn't necessarily proof that he does or doesn't know about it. He may not know about it, or might but not know its current whereabouts, making him settle for the Secret Stones in the era of Rauru's (re)founding.

In the JP version, (found here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1eu42Oj7XRJSwkFugowhsJReW6UzY2MyfYHnAJwAtOcs/edit) Ganon recognizes the MS as soon as he awakes from his seal. Sure, Rauru told him about it, but not what it looks like, so if they're not meant to be the same, then is quite peculiar that he would recognize it.

Also, in the JP version, Sidon says that Ganondorf has ressurected AGAIN after defeating Phantom Ganon, meaning that he has been sealed and/or destroyed and revived before. This is made clear in CaC, where it says that he continued to be revived until he became malice itself.

Interestingly, Ganon is ''coded'' as an OoT-era Gerudo. He's literally the only Gerudo to have round ears, which also applies to not only him in OoT, but the other Gerudo of that time, whereas the other BotW/TotK Gerudo do not(including TotK flashbacks). CaC(and maybe BotW, I'm not sure) even makes a point of saying that the Gerudo from long ago had round ears and that modern ones don't due to losing their connection with the gods, so this had to have been intentional.

Also, CaC and BotW both make it clear that the Ganon that became Calamity is the result of OoT's Ganon descent into malice after multiple revivals and defeats, with BotW saying that CG used to be known as the ''Great Demon King''(JP) and the ''Great King of Evil''(EN):

https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjIuZO6Rns1j0gPGqHkUVw3HDtjsQpCO0DeEtoxXVWsL4Z7eCCmDUsQPcwxB0_kqCUoNZmMLsrTyjfcomJP7gZIL7T5STMP__l1cMxM4bakbFcShC10C9Z5-T2wiO4YzuegN6PxvDCuiW0My1cGmvJeq9MxP2ZpXq0qkjUxjqIsBZEk9vZDv1OdzVELNdg/s4096/GridArt_20230714_214558842~3.jpg

These titles are given to OoT Ganondorf, but not FSA Ganondorf, who is the only Ganon confirmed to be different. And since Impa says that TotK Ganon is the one that became CG, this means that both TotK Ganon and OoT Ganon should be considered the same.

 

[Ryuu Kage Desu]

I don't remember him being confirmed as a different person in game, but I might be misremembering.

These titles are given to OoT Ganondorf, but not FSA Ganondorf, who is the only Ganon confirmed to be different.

That's what I was referring to, Bowsette. Quickly flipping through the Creating a Champion book, I don't see the text treating anyone as multiple entities. If I missed something on my flip through, I'm happy to be corrected, but everyone, including Link and Zelda, are treated as singular entities. So, I don't think it's a good basis to make evidence on.

Edit: There is page 20, but that has more to due with helping people connect the blue tunic to Link, instead of the customary green. The point still stands.

 

[GZ Zelda]

That's what I was referring to, Bowsette. Quickly flipping through the Creating a Champion book, I don't see the text treating anyone as multiple entities. If I missed something on my flip through, I'm happy to be corrected, but everyone, including Link and Zelda, are treated as singular entities. So, I don't think it's a good basis to make evidence on.

"Ganon is the incarnation of hatred and malice that has brought pain and suffering to Hyrule countless times...one hundred years ago it returned, as it always does"

This quote implies that it's the same incarnation of hatred and malice manifesting in different forms, I think. But I agree that FSA Ganon is canonically different then the rest (and TotK Ganondorf probably is too, I would just think that means that TotK past is most likely a refounding. Unless the theory is that all the Ganondorf's originate from TotK's past Ganondorf, which is plausible I guess).

Conjecture.
In the 'canon lore" Ganon is a Gerudo,
The Gerudo life span is 100 years.
We have a canon calamity timeline of "10,000" years.

We are looking at a "Re-incarnation process of a "Mortal Gannon" not the "Demon King Ganon".
(his reason for "Perpetually" incarnating every 100 years "subject to circumstance." is being trapped by RARU.)
there is Circumstance being, if the "1 Gerudo male" incarnates and its not "Ganon" (E.G the Gerudo male in BOTW dressed like a woman and Groose)
Ganon does not have a host body, hence His malace Forms Take over!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We've only, theoretically, seen three male Gerudo. There are, as far as we know, zero male Gerudo for 10,000 years. Vilia is Hylian.

Just because they were released in this game, it does not indicate their "Datum" on the timeline.
Totk Past and the first "Sealing of the Demon King Ganon" is the earliest we see the "Rito"
And the only "Canon timeline split" is at OOT.

But this is what I'm saying, TotK past can't take place before Wind Waker because of the Rito. If the armor pieces in the Depths are canon, TotK has to be either a merged timeline or a linear timeline, and having two Rito tribes before Wind Waker doesn't make more sense then the developer quotes suggesting that TotK's past was a refounding after the destruction of the kingdom.

Fujibayashi, the game's director, translated by Nintendo Everything: “It is definitely a story after Breath of the Wild. After that, basically, we are thinking about how not to break the story and world of The Legend of Zelda. Those are the two points I can say at this point in time.

I think if it doesn’t collapse, fans can have the space to wonder various things like “So that means that is possible?”. If we only speak of the possibilities, if there is the story of Hyrule’s founding, it is also possible that Hyrule has collapsed in its history once before. I don’t randomly make things by saying “Isn’t it interesting if we did this here?”, so even for the parts we did not tell, I hope you enjoy imagining it."

In the JP version, (found here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1eu42Oj7XRJSwkFugowhsJReW6UzY2MyfYHnAJwAtOcs/edit) Ganon recognizes the MS as soon as he awakes from his seal. Sure, Rauru told him about it, but not what it looks like, so if they're not meant to be the same, then is quite peculiar that he would recognize it.

I agree that Ganondorf is very non-chalant about 1. being sealed and 2. who and what Link and the Master Sword are. The other Ganondorf's that get sealed are not happy about it, so assured that they will return in the future. This Ganondorf is. Maybe because he has a different temperment all together, or maybe because he has experienced other events before.

These titles are given to OoT Ganondorf, but not FSA Ganondorf, who is the only Ganon confirmed to be different. And since Impa says that TotK Ganon is the one that became CG, this means that both TotK Ganon and OoT Ganon should be considered the same.

I agree, I just think that OoT Ganondorf has to come first. I don't think TotK past can be before Ocarina of Time.

 

[Ryuu Kage Desu]

Unless the theory is that all the Ganondorf's originate from TotK's past Ganondorf, which is plausible I guess

Well, that is my theory.