User talk:Argentum Kurodil

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Hylian (Sheikah)

That's how the Character Profiles in TotK have it. Sheikah are Hylians. (While Gerudo are not)

- Sanityormadness (talk) 16:29, August 6, 2023 (UTC)

And while I'm here, creating pages like Sage of Fire with no details on the character beyond "this guy exists" isn't very helpful. - Sanityormadness (talk) 16:48, August 6, 2023 (UTC)

That's not how the lore has it. Skyward Sword makes them non-human. *All* Humans are on Skyloft, and at the same time Sheikah are not. You are well aware that Hylians are Human I'm sure.

Besides, one listing of Hylian (Sheikah) and many more of just Sheikah should suggest which trumps.

It's better to have bald pages to be filled in later than not have them at all and risk them never even being made. Argentum Kurodil (talk) 18:07, August 6, 2023 (UTC)

Oh, and this wouldn't even be the only race the Purah Pad gets wrong. It lists the Great Deku Tree as a Korok. He is not a Korok (a race evolved from Kokiri evolved from Hylians through the Deku Tree). He is... A Deku Tree. If Deku Trees outdate Koroks and created Koroks from a non-Deku Tree source, then the Deku Trees cannot themselves be Koroks. If this official yet discontinued Nintendo website is anything to go off, Deku Trees can grow from Deku Seeds like Deku Babas

http://web.archive.org/web/20160309185730/http://zelda.com/universe/pedia/d.jsp

Even two-handed weapons and spears don't list the correct damage. This game is full of lies and inconsistencies, so you'd be well advised to refer back to what is known. Argentum Kurodil (talk) 18:40, August 6, 2023 (UTC)

I'm realising you'll want more examples of incorrect things said in-game and passed off as correct statements. We'll do Champions' Arms, with the Gorons as the example. Fugo says there's only one "soul" to inhabit a Boulder Breaker, so only one can exist at a time. This is not only wrong in AoC, where Daruk's inventory can have many, but even in TotK itself. Yunobo has one permanently, including at the same time as Link. The other three lots all follow a similar pattern. Argentum Kurodil (talk) 19:02, August 6, 2023 (UTC)

If you can't dispute my point then I'll have no course of action but to correct the pages.

And for good measure, I'll give another example just to really emphasise that you can't take this game at its word. Rauru claims to Zelda "But remember, that was a future where you never appeared in this world. And you are here now." We know this is wrong from the start of the game, as the murals depicting the events leading to the birth of the Light Dragon (which occurred after Zelda was sent to the past) already exist in this world of Zelda's. Argentum Kurodil (talk) 05:35, August 8, 2023 (UTC)

There's nothing to dispute. It's a bald editorial statement. You can say that something *a character* says - like Fugo or Rauru - is mistaken or oversold for [character POV reasons], but editorial statements from a primary source (i.e, the games. Official websites like zelda.com , official tie-in books like Hyrule Historia, etc are secondary sources) are right by definition. As for the Deku Tree, think of it the other way around. He made the Koroks like him. - Sanityormadness (talk) 11:32, August 8, 2023 (UTC)

Short summary for short attention spans: Skyward Sword has all Humans in the sky and Sheikah on the surface. This makes them different people. Twilight Princess agrees. The thing that says "Hylian (Sheikah)" gets other things wrong, so with what we know (Sheikah aren't Humans) it's believable that it would get this wrong.

Actual argument:

There's a bit of an issue here. The games can be primary sources, but lots of the exposition is word of mouth from NPCs, subject to this [character POV], making the in-game stuff we hear rather than see weaker. As it was created in-game, the Purah Pad may be subject to the whims of [character POV]. To strengthen your argument, we can say it maybe isn't afflicted with [character POV], ergo it can be considered at TotK inventory status. If we have two primary sources which clash, we'd best look at which is backed up by more (spoiler: nothing backs TotK up).

This inventory is already known to lie to us in the form of two-handed weapon damage numbers, damaging its credence. If it can be demonstrated further that this specific bit of inventory is shaky - for which I shall return to the Deku Tree - then any reason to question something it says should be looked at with great suspicion.

Koroks are creature created from the Kokiri by the Deku Tree. Maybe he modelled them approximately in his image, but that changes nothing. He didn't create himself from a Kokiri; he's not a Korok.

Now we ask: do we have reason to question "Hylian (Sheikah)"? Yes. Why? Skyward Sword, another primary source, backed up by secondary sources authored by Nintendo, places all Humans in the sky, and the Sheikah on the surface, meaning Sheikah cannot possibly be Hylian given that Hylians are Human.

Looking into it, there's actually a second narrative that solidifies this claim. The Oocca, the original chosen people of the Goddess, are the ancestors of the Hylians. Whether this means the Humans were made scientifically by the Oocca or evolved from some of the Oocca isn't stated solidly, with some translations being slightly off, so I won't make any assumptions. Nevertheless, the Oocca left for the sky when the Humans arrived, leaving the Humans in the dark about their presence. If the Sheikah were to act as mediators between the Oocca and the Hylian royals (whom would learn of them from the Sheikah), then it's quite clear that the Sheikah would need to know the Oocca. The logical follow-through is that the Sheikah were already there before the Humans, in order to know the Oocca and document their existence.

This leaves a dilemma. Do we follow a primary source backed by an official secondary source that stands solidified by other stated facts thus far in the series, or do we follow a source that's notably inconsistent in the department in question which states something in contravention to all other sources? The idea of "Hylian (Sheikah)" has *NEVER* been used before - it has always been just "Sheikah" - and now it's being used only by something that can't tell a Korok from a Deku Tree, running against a previous solid narrative.

Even if the Sheikah were Hylian (they aren't) it's not productive to put "Hylian (Sheikah)" unless you're going to keep subdividing everyone. If you're doing that, you should put "Human (Hylian)" or "Human (Gerudo)", which would then mean you need to actually put "Human (Hylian (Sheikah))". Or you could just keep it snappy and always unequivocally correct no matter what and put "Sheikah", which is obviously the most sensible thing to do.Argentum Kurodil (talk) 10:20, August 9, 2023 (UTC)

Skyward Sword's intro is in the form of a oral myth, not a direct narrative - the first line of it literally is "This is a tale that you humans have passed down through uncounted generations...". It's what the people on Skyloft and The Sky THINK, as mimetically mutated through a thousand tellings. Same deal as when a character says something, you're cherry picking things that are open to interpretation to try and refute something which isn't because you Officially Know what's up.

"Human" has been used inconsistently in the series, ranging from "the round-eared guys in Twilight Princess" to a general term for "anything that looks a lot like IRL humans" (Some of this may be Early Instalment Weirdness - I think OOT was where the term "Hylian" was first used, so everything before that defaulted to human) - but the recent games, certainly BotW-onward, have specifically eschewed "Human" as a word. We don't need to subdivide when "people: Hylian" isn't subdivided. - Sanityormadness (talk) 14:36, August 14, 2023 (UTC)

You are correct. By itself, the intro can't be fully trusted. However, we do understand it to be correct as it's actually backed up by another, unbiased source. Human seems to have two general meanings at present: the species of Skyloftians and descendants thereof; and the subsection of this species that's not otherwise specified (for example, not a Gerudo or one of the "people of Hylia" as Hylians were first known in ALttP). I wouldn't know how meaningful the "Human" abstinence has been in the last 3 or so games, but a lack of usage, if nothing else, means a lack of meaning change. These two meanings seem to apply in all games and circumstances that mention Humans. Argentum Kurodil (talk) 19:09, August 14, 2023 (UTC)

Hi! Just chiming in as a neutral point-of-view. Please refrain from making statements such as "If you can't dispute my point then I'll have no course of action but to correct the pages.". We want to avoid getting into edit wars. Mass reverting someone's good faith edits (whether they're an admin or not) because you disagree with them is not how we want to operate here. It's actually a quick way to get blocked from editing and I don't want to inhibit you making good, constructive edits. You've been around here for a few years and we value your contributions a lot, so please don't ruin that by losing your cool and bypassing basic wiki etiquette. The pages in question will survive until all parties involved can come to a mutual agreement or compromise. --Charitwo (talk) 21:51, August 14, 2023 (UTC)

That's fair. Sorry for such conduct. Argentum Kurodil (talk) 07:27, August 15, 2023 (UTC)