Wind Waker or Twilight Princess?

[DeactivatedUser2]

Ocarina of Time Ganondorf is incredibly inteligent. He masterminded the events in the entire first half of the game. ALTTP Ganon is no different. He disguses himself as Aghanim and again manipulates events in Hyrule.

I wouldn't really call him incredibly intelligent. Patient and meticulous, maybe, but he really just kind of let Link do his thing and swooped in and entered the Sacred Realm when Link pulled the Master Sword out.

 

[the8thark]

Care to explain?

WW has (in my opinion some example)
Overbloom and over saturated colours (especially in HD version)
Short and uninspired dungeons
Uninspired bosses (especially ther Andross clone)
The process to fish things up in annoying (fixed somewhet in the HD version)
Cel shading (It kinda doesn't work but I can handle it for one game).

The best part of WW in my opinion is the NPCs and their back stories. They are really good.

 

[Dio]

WW has (in my opinion some example)
Overbloom and over saturated colours (especially in HD version)
Short and uninspired dungeons
Uninspired bosses (especially ther Andross clone)
The process to fish things up in annoying (fixed somewhet in the HD version)
Cel shading (It kinda doesn't work but I can handle it for one game).

The best part of WW in my opinion is the NPCs and their back stories. They are really good.

I was hoping your reply would be 'No'

 

[DeactivatedUser2]

WW has (in my opinion some example)
Overbloom and over saturated colours (especially in HD version)

Fair point, for most people, the saturation is a hit or miss.

Short and uninspired dungeons
Uninspired bosses (especially ther Andross clone

Lakebed Temple? Forest Temple? Goron Mines? Temple of Time?

The bosses aren't as intimidating, but I do think the themes are superior in basically every way to TP's boss themes (maybe not Stallord's or Blizzeta's themes) .

The process to fish things up in annoying (fixed somewhet in the HD version)

Not sure what you meant by this.

Honestly, I think one of the big reasons most of the people here don't enjoy WW as much as TP is just the graphics. Most of the people here are around 20 (aside from me and Feverish, I believe) so I'm just guessing the majority feel that it's just too childish looking to enjoy. Not saying this as an insult, just a general observation.

 

[the8thark]

Not sure what you meant by this.

I think this cartoon will explain what I meant.

 

[DeactivatedUser2]

I think this cartoon will explain what I meant.

I've never actually had that problem, so I can't really comment. I usually play with the volume off anyways so I can hear the TV, so even the jingle isn't really important to me anymore. Plus, you know you can just cruise without changing the wind direction, right?

 

[SPG]

Plus, you guys are forgetting about Wolf Link. The Wolf Link segments feature probably the most tedious, uninspired, and just plain boring gameplay in the entire series. If you wanna complain about sailing getting tedious, Wolf Link is 10 times worse

 

[Deleted member 14134]

Plus, you guys are forgetting about Wolf Link. The Wolf Link segments feature probably the most tedious, uninspired, and just plain boring gameplay in the entire series. If you wanna complain about sailing getting tedious, Wolf Link is 10 times worse

But sailing happened 10 times more often. At least as wolf link you had more to do then spin the camera and wait 5 minutes to arrive at your destination.

Yes, partners leaving are always bittersweet, but the only one that has literally died (unless you count Fi's "eternal sleep") would be Daphnes, left below with Ganondorf and the Kingdom of Hyrule. This could even be considered symbolic, because, in his desperation to save Hyrule, he saw himself as being no better than Ganondorf. It's only fitting that both of them would meet their demise in the kingdom they sought after. It really broke the traditions of Zelda that not every game would have an ending where everybody would come out unscathed (I guess LA technically did that first? However we have no idea if they were even hurt when the dream ended) and the protagonists had to come to a sort of compromise instead of having everything go back to normal; they needed to find a new Hyrule to inhabit.

The main difference for me is that Midna was a fleshed out character that grew on players overtime and developed a bond over the game with Link. Daphnes to me merely felt like a guide, I didn't feel any connection to him, and I don't think there was a growing bond between him and Link. Killing off a character that I simply don't care about is not nearly as bittersweet as a character that I've come to care deeply for leaving forever.

 

[Vanessa28]

Oh I love both games very much but I would choose TP anytime. I have played that game so much it always felt like going on a holiday into a complete different world for me. I could forget everything around me by playing that game.
The game has indeed very ridiculously easy boss battles but still I enjoyed them all. I enjoyed going through the dungeons and working all the way up to the boss room. Plus it has the epic battle with Le Dorf. Four parts and come on now...the last part is pretty epic!! Plus the game has two of my alltime fav characters: Zant and Midna. Zant is an amazing villain and thanks to TP he has become one of my favs villains ever. And do I need to say anything more about Midna? KotrL helps you but he really doesn't help YOU much in battles. All he does is guiding you and uses the stone to talk to you. But come on that's all he does. Midna gives you so much more. She allows you to warp, turn into a wolf, using the B attack in wolf mode and she actually helps out in battles. She zaps the player and Zelda to safety before Le Dorf "kills" her. But Midna is really helping you out so much. Plus her story is very good. I love Midna.

I do love WW too but to me TP wins hands down.

 

[Dio]

Plus, you guys are forgetting about Wolf Link. The Wolf Link segments feature probably the most tedious, uninspired, and just plain boring gameplay in the entire series. If you wanna complain about sailing getting tedious, Wolf Link is 10 times worse

There are only three of those segments and my only issue was there were too many tears. Besides that they get the player to explore the new area under a blanket of twilight before seeing how it is supposed to look and having that familiarity with it. However if a player doesn't like sailing and find that tedious. It exists throughout the whole of wind waker.

 

[Ver-go-a-go-go]

Honestly part of it is the size of the overworld. MM didn't have a massive overworld, but it easily had a lot of content when finding things like Heart Pieces and Masks. A small overworld with a decent amount of content to make that world seem larger has always been a Zelda trope.

No, it really hasn't on the level that you're arguing it to be. I'll grant you that 3D Zelda has always introduced large spaces of land with little in them, but you're vastly underestimating the amount that WW arbitrarily tagged on to itself in comparison to the others. My entire argument wasn't based around the idea that WW is the only one to do this - it's just the worse offender by an incredibly large amount and is much more manipulative with the player because of it. OoT's and MM's fields don't waste your time because they're relatively expansive, easy to identify what is where, and later give you an easier method of traversing them. WW does.... none of this. Literally none. It wastes your time with useless empty space on a far larger degree, gives you nearly useless warp points that are incredibly restrictive, and it had to wait a cool decade to speed up the sailing process. This is my point.

The Ghost Ship, Big Octos, Cyclones, ect ect. Twilight Princess had a large world, but it simply had caves with rupees. There were at most, like, 5-6 caves that were bigger than 1-2 rooms (not counting the Cave or Ordeals.) Wind Waker had an interesting and different array of puzzles and caves, such as finding upgrades on the different islands instead of winning them in mini games.

I really feel like you haven't played TP in a very long time if you're going to make this claim, or you just never attempted to explore to get 100%. I recently 100%'d the entire game and know for a complete fact that the contrast you're trying to make is most definitely not true. Yes, there are caves, but you've forgotten the many dig points that lead to grottos, secret locations via bombing or spinner that lead to heart pieces, and even underwater secrets that lead to things like bomb upgrades. This entire idea that TP's overworld is completely barren is so laughable when you actually put it face to face with WW and compare what both games had to offer relative to the amount of space you have to traverse. WW is also so painfully predictable with its island structure when it comes to upgrades. You literally have the "fire arrow" island, the "ice arrow" island, and so on and so forth. It makes sailing feel even MORE frustrating because I have to do it constantly and waste a great deal of time getting to these islands.

The dungeons in WW were short, yes, but the music was by far superior in that it has much more memorable, such as Gohdan's theme and Molgera's theme. I think the music itself just comes down to personal taste (but to be fair, this whole thread is about personal taste.)

Yeah, you like WW more, so you're going to like its music more. I don't see how anyone could possibly love that god-damn sailing theme after hours on end of it, but whatever. I'll severely disagree with you when it comes to WW being more "memorable". TP brought back a variety of old and classic Zelda tunes and put an excellent new spin on them. We got the Song of Healing, Goron's Lullaby, Serenade of Water, Hyrule Castle, and so much more on top of excellent new tracks, particularly the boss themes and specifically Ganondorf. I'm not going to debate personal taste of music, but TP most definitely has a memorable soundtrack as do most Zelda games.

Also, how is "good music" an excuse for WW's dungeons to be so pathetically short and small in quantity? The dungeons are a core mechanic of Zelda, and WW is a very large step behind the rest in that regard (except maybe SS).

One thing I noticed about TP is that it seemed to be the game that started messing with the originality of Zelda; WW was by no means a spiritual successor to Zelda; it established itself as a sequel, by the ways it hinted at moving on past the old Hyrule and exploring the new lands above the seas. TP really had no shame in taking OoT's dead body, skinning it, and making it into a fresh skin suit to wear. With the Forest Temple clearly being a deceased Great Deku Tree, Goron Mines clearly being Dodongo's Cavern, Lakebed Temple and the Water Temple, ect ect. Not to mention how it literally used an iconic location from OoT as a setting for a dungeon.

I don't see how this is a positive net-gain or loss, and I'm confused why you're bringing this up as some kind of trump card positive for WW; even if I grant you that WW is 100% original (which it isn't due to its heavily reliance on OoT lore fore its very lack-luster and predictable story), this doesn't mean it gets some kind of award for it, especially when its "originality" was such a step back in things such a length, dungeon design, and especially introducing the tediousness of sailing. TP is much more a true sequel that WW could ever hope to be - the formula wasn't worn out, nor was it unwelcome. In many ways it was a return to form for 3D Zelda, something the fans really wanted in a true sequel to OoT. We want horseback riding, Zoras, Gorons, the true kingdom of Hyrule, and new elements such as the Twili. WW introduces many new things, but it's no reason to discredit TP when TP was actually the game fans wanted as a real continuation.

The story seems subpar as well. The Ooccoo, while interesting, ****ed up the lore considering how they weren't even mentioned during the creation of Hylia or at any point during SS (I'm not going to ignore the English translation of TP, it's what was intended when the game was being translated and I don't see why I shouldn't go by it).

Yeah, it's totally TP's fault that the developers went ape**** with SS and retconned everything, right? Look, no one is going to argue that SS did more to harm the Zelda lore than any other game, but it's a complete fallacy to attempt to spin this into a flaw of TP. This is especially true when you consider where the story seemed to be going with the Ooccoo. You just cannot claim TP messed this up when it's completely SS's fault. Even then, WW butchered the lore even more with its portrayal of Ganondorf. On yeah, I can TOTALLY buy that this guy, who was a completely heartless and soulless dictator in OoT, is now actually a tragic villain who just wanted to help his people. What the actual hell? No, Ganondorf wasn't just being bullied by the wind in OoT as he claims in WW. He imprisoned his people and had his minions turn them into mindless slaves (Nabooru). How on earth did he go through such a radical character change, and why doesn't WW explain it more?

No story in Zelda is actually that great, but don't claim TP is somehow responsible for SS's mistakes and then turn around and act like WW didn't bring its fair share of inconsistencies and retcons.

Not to mention Ganondorf being shoehorned in because of the fact he's been the villain for the longest time, yet he completely ruined the set up that WW and OoT had for him (OoT not so much, but it was clear that Ganondorf had a clear goal in mind when taking over Hyrule during those 7 years, and while he ruled by fear and power, literally nobody besides a select few even knew Ganondorf was in Hyrule during TP, making his plan completely null.)

"Shoehorned" is such an annoying and vague buzzword. What do you actually mean by this? Because Ganondorf has such a clearly defined purpose in TP - he's executed following OoT (Which is MUCH more in line with his character instead of the pathetic excuse of a villain and complete shell he turned into in WW), but escapes death and is transported to the Twilight realm. It makes SENSE that the Sages would stop at no cost to get rid of him. It makes SENSE that he'd manipulate the populace of the Twilight Realm, and it makes SENSE that he'd use them as a puppet to help him return to Hyrule and finish the job. Honestly, I don't see how people complain that Zant isn't the main villain when the foreshadowing was there from before the game was even half way over.

Graphics... It's like comparing apples and oranges.


However, I have an allergy to oranges, so it's not really hard for me to pick my own personal taste. Twilight Princess, while being the first game to start with the realistic and gritty graphics, was 50 shades of brown, and every wall and floor/ground looked like it was smeared with ****.

Yeah, this is where I definitely start to think you haven't played TP in a while. Yes, the beginning stages are brown and green. Real life forests in a majority of the world are brown and green, this is a fact. We eventually see other areas that Lake Hylia and it's beautiful blue water, a jaw-dropping northern area with tons of snow that looks amazing when the light hits it, and the surrealness of the Twilight Realm. These are just talking points that you're going down, like you have to check the "lol only brown" box on the checklist. This annoys me because this claim is thrown around so often when it isn't even true

Also, the linearity in TP is god awful. After you complete Dragon Roost Cavern, you can start exploring at that exact moment. However, in TP, you basically have to wait until you get the Master Sword, where like 80% of the game opens up for you. The game isn't a completely straight path, so to say, but Wind Waker handles exploration much better.

You are vastly, vastly overselling WW's "openness". Yes you can go to islands, but I cannot count how many times I attempted to "explore" and got hit with a roadblock immediately because I needed a painfully obvious item (Hookshot, Deku Leaf, Hammer) in order to solve the painfully one-note "puzzle" of each island. Yeah, I can waste my time going to every god-forsaken tiny island on the map for the sake of it, but it's almost always a completely waste of time and so TEDIOUS because I had to use the god damn sailing to get there. It's literally the worst of both worlds; I waste my time getting to my destination, and I waste my time at my destination because "you need the hookshot lel". Every Zelda game does this, but as I've pointed out above, WW is such a worse offender because of its very nature of constant sailing an lack of core design aspects in the parts of the game that really count such as dungeons.

Plus, I know a lot of people will disagree, but I think the combat and battles were a lot more interesting. Quick action commands and extremely smooth and responsive controls made WW a delight, while I thought the controls in TP seemed dry, it's a little hard to explain. However, the archery in TP is much better (not counting the different types of arrows, those were handled much better in WW) just because sniping things seemed a lot more satisfying.

God, I cannot overstate how much I absolutely despise the parry command in WW. Too lazy for actual strategy? Just hold you shield up and parry! IT EVEN WORKS FOR THE FINAL BOSS. ACTUALLY, YOU HAVE TO DO IT FOR THE FINAL BOSS. Good game design at its best, truly.

In TP you could at least play around with strategies that weren't just holding up your shield, waiting for a button to glow, and then pressing the button. Enemies are weak to specific hidden abilities, while they completely shut down other hidden abilities. For example - Dinolfos with shields are immune to the Moral Draw, but are weak against the Helm Splitter. Conversely, Darknuts are incredibly resiliant to the Helm Splitter, but susceptible to the Moral Draw and Backslice.

They're both disgustingly easy, but like with almost every element with WW, at least TP wasn't a chore. That's the thing here - WW is a chore, an experiment gone wrong, and a step backwards in so many ways. I appreciate new things, but new does not automatically mean better, especially with such sloppy implementation.

 

[mαrkαsscoρ]

i give wind waker the edge b/c i have slightly stronger nostalgic ties to it,but either one can be my favorite zelda game

 

[Lydia]

Hard to decide, I enjoyed WW and TP equally, but WW is a bit short, and quite easy. TP is harder, but the wolf link transformation is annoying without the shadow crystal...

 

[the8thark]

I've never actually had that problem, so I can't really comment. I usually play with the volume off anyways so I can hear the TV, so even the jingle isn't really important to me anymore. Plus, you know you can just cruise without changing the wind direction, right?

Yes but it's still annoying to have to turn the boat around over and over just to hit the exact spot.

 

[the8thark]

I was hoping your reply would be 'No'

Awww, you know me better than that by now
Seriously I take this a compliement from you. Thanks.