• Welcome to ZD Forums! You must create an account and log in to see and participate in the Shoutbox chat on this main index page.

Which Zelda Game is the Most Philosophical?

Joined
Feb 23, 2011
I'm going out on a limb and calling Majora's Mask the most philosophical of Zelda games. It goes into what happens to people when they die, death always being a heavy subject. While it doesn't outright spell it out to you, the constant time rewinding calls into question the validity of any of your actions. Since all your actions are reset when you go back to the first day, does anything you do really matter? Are you really being the good guy if you are the only one reaping the benefits of your actions in the end? What are people really like when the end is coming for them? Is the entire game a metaphor for the grieving process? I can think of several more philosophical questions like this that I can't really for most Zelda games.

Going to have to agree here. While I will not say that the Zelda series is the most philosophical game out there, I must admit that Majora's Mask came pretty darn close. 90% of its themes were not only otherworldly for the Zelda series but for gaming as well. Death, despair, anguish and lots of other melancholic concepts were touched upon like never before in its time. Hell, some fans still question if Majora's Mask even truly happened or if it was just a dream. Anything that causes one to look into things this way can be considered philosophical; there is not always a huge sign that reads "omg look I'm a masterpiece of philosophy!" I am glad that MM didn't go that route and took a more relaxed, subtle approach with this kind of thing. All it takes is a philosophical mind to begin with...

However, I guess not everyone finds putting yourself in the shoes of a child carrying the weight of a foreign land (dimension) on his shoulders while a menacing moon controlled by a lonely, outcast kid under the control of a mask that happens to shape like a heart with thorns in it slowly encroaches upon said land, and taking on the form of tortured souls who were [technically] killed by aforementioned mask philosophical...
 

Mido

Version 1
Joined
Apr 6, 2011
Location
The Turnabout
I think it all depends on the viewpoint of the player, what they get out of the game. Most of the Zelda games are all pretty much the same plotwise, with a few variations. (Like Majora's Mask, Link's Awakening, etc.) The elements that differ create different messages in the games. For example, the darker tone of TP contrasts WW's more vibrant tone, which allows the respective games to give off their own vibes through characters, environment, and what not. This is where philosophy plays a role. I think that all the games give off the same general theme, with different variations, so in a sense, the games all do have philosophy.

To answer the original question, I would also agree that MM has the most philosophy. It is one of the few Zelda games to stray from the usual Zelda elements, and carries a different vibe than most of the games. That large theme of friendship that pervades throughout the game's story is shown through various situations in the game, such as the relationship between Link and the Skull Kid, and Anju and Kafei.
 
P

Pikachu

Guest
I also do not think that Zelda is a philosophically game. But I like the story and the game very much.
It has something that you always want to play it :)

I also have got a question. My parents bought me an iPad with an ipad 2 Vertrag auf www.ipad-datentarife.de (sorry, I don't
know how to say it in english) and now I want to know if there is also an Zelda game you can play on iPad :)

Thank you and many greats :)
 

Scoby

France
Joined
Nov 21, 2012
Location
Spain
i do not find the series very philosophical, at least not what they were based on.
so i cant pick one :/
 

Zorth

#Scoundrel
Joined
Apr 22, 2011
I find MM a little bit philosophical, at least under the time Majora is still free. Sir Quaffler does an excellent explanation why.

OOT is just a basic good guy/bad guy story. Power is corrupting, a hero needs to balance courage and wisdom blah blah blah.

The time traveling in OoT can be mind boggling, example would be the song of storms paradox. Makes us wonder about time traveling.. stuff.
 

Curmudgeon

default setting: sarcastic prick
Joined
Dec 17, 2012
Gender
grumpy
I appreciate the beautifully simple Tao of undiluted violence forwarded by AoL. Link is but an empty vessel to be filled with pure aggression.
 

Shadsie

Sage of Tales
I actually do think the games are philosophical, in a way... like, a light touch, and mostly what the player brings into it, but since I'm a fanfiction writer who's brain is building upon everything all the time as I'm playing... here's a rundown of some of the philosophy and psychology various titles I've played...


Legend of Zelda Classic: The need of Wisdom to balance Power - specifically, it is a story about gaining wisdom before one can be entrusted with power. While it is done in the most literal way possible (you *collect fragments of the Triforce of Wisdom* ) I remember watching a special on either PBS or History Channel called "Rise of the Videogame" all about the origins of gaming in which Miyamoto, when interviewed about his creations, flat out said that was his philosophy behind the first Legend of Zelda.

The Adventure of Link: Gaining Courage by facing the dark side of your soul. Self-explanitory for those who've completed the game. Face your dark side or become it.

A Link to the Past: I remember doing research for an article that involved my learning of some of the copious Shinto themes this game has. There's also something to be said about facing your true self (how the Dark World twists people into the forms reprsenting their true selves) and the dangers of greed warping you, since if I'm not mistaken, it's implied that's how Ganondorf truly became Ganon the pig.

I have not played Link's Awakening... I suppose from what I've heard/read of it, it's a game that asks the very philosophical question "What is reality?" Basically the Matrix of Nintendo games?

Ocarina of Time: This game is about growing up. It's also a basic solid Hero's Journey, as they all are, but there's a lot to be said for the childhood Link missed and a child having to rapidly become a man because he needs to.

Majora's Mask: Oh, my goodness. (I vote this one as "most philosophical" out of the bunch). I have described this game (on my regular blog... when I was talking about playing it for the Mayan Apocalypse) as being about a fight against Nihilism. I see the dark desires of the Skull Kid, brought out by Majora's Mask and culminating in the falling of the moon as this mad suicidal rush by a party (Majora) who sees the world as having no meaning, something to end and Link standing up and saying "No! People and the world are NOT worthless!" (even those he does not know/has no connections to... and even those whose destiny is only to die). I find a lot about death and dealing with it in this game and also asserting a meaning against those who'd declare that there is none/who would throw it all away.

Yeah, my mind is weird. I've only ever played through the entire game once, too.

Oracles Series: The importance of nature and the courage to fight evil even if you may become destroyed in the process (I didn't find too much depth in these ones).

Wind Waker: The importance of the future and letting go of the past. Learn from past, but do not let it rule you, for there is a horizon you and future generations must meet.

I haven't played Phantom Hourglass yet...

Twilight Princess: Overcoming predjudice. Really! I know people like to focus on the Twilight and the darkness, but when I think about it, I think about how Link has to grudgingly work with Midna for common goals and how they both distrusted each other until they started reaching their goals together. We gradually see Midna's attitude soften and after the Lakebed Temple - well, I don't know about you, but my main concern wasn't regaining my human form, it was keeping Midna alive! You get the Gorons overcoming their distrust of Hylians after Link helps them, people being afraid of his wolf-form, even as he's saving them, and ultimately, we meet the Twili ... who, when not brainwashed and crazy are actually good (albeit strange) people.

Minish Cap: There are amazing things to be found in the world, even whole other worlds at your feet - if only you pay attention. (Okay, so this one's like the Oracles in that I didn't find too much depth in it, but hey, I'm trying!)

Skyward Sword: Love. Love and what one is willing to do for it. (And yes, this stands even if you aren't a ZeLinker... even if Zelda is just "a best friend" in your eyes, the love between friends is still a kind of love).

Spirit Tracks: Trains go Whoo! Whoo! (I haven't finished this one yet, I just started it. I'll look for a philosophy to it later).
 

Sir Quaffler

May we meet again
Wow Shadsie way to run with the ball on this one! Better than the rest of us, that's for sure. As for Link's Awakening, yes there are the themes of what reality is. But, at least for me, what I found on the philosophical side was whether one has the fortitude to carry out a task which will end in the deaths of innocents. It's the only game I've played that made me feel bad for beating it, because defeating the Final Nightmare and awakening the Wind Fish meant the inhabitants of Koholint would disappear forever. So towards the end it got very hard for me to carry on in the dungeons because it meant one step closer to their demise. It's very similar to Majora's Mask, in that in the end it's only really Link that benefits from his actions, so in a way you're kinda the bad guy.
 

DarkestLink

Darkest of all Dark Links
Joined
Oct 28, 2012
But, at least for me, what I found on the philosophical side was whether one has the fortitude to carry out a task which will end in the deaths of innocents.

While it doesn't outright spell it out to you, the constant time rewinding calls into question the validity of any of your actions. Since all your actions are reset when you go back to the first day, does anything you do really matter? Are you really being the good guy if you are the only one reaping the benefits of your actions in the end?

Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, but I just don't understand this. Not only did MM (and LA for that matter) not spell it out for you....it completely chose not to acknowledge that at all. In fact, MM dodged it completely. To me, these aren't philosophical ideas the game had...these are plot holes turned into philosophical ideas by players with more imagination than the developers.

Honestly, that would have been awesome if Majora's Mask brought that question. Like maybe after the 2nd dungeon, Tatl would question their efforts when everything gets set back. And maybe, in the end, you would beat all the bosses again to free all 4 giants again before taking on Majora. But no. Instead, despite still be possessed by the masks, the giants are somehow immune to whole time travel thing. They are freed from the masks and yet the areas are still in peril. Why? Because the giant that is freed from the mask is still trapped in the mask and causing the problems.

If that wasn't a huge enough plot hole, Nintendo dug themselves deeper in the end. The characters live a happy ending in each of their personal lives as a result of Link helping them...even though...Link didn't help them...because he went back in time. The Gorons should be dead. The Deku princess should be missing. Anju and Kafei's relationship should be over. The cuccos should still be small. The twins shouldn't have the new dance. The list goes on. What could have been interesting and though provoking story content is, instead, a plot hole. A huge one at that.

L.A.'s is a minor plot hole but a huge disappointment in story. There was no regret. Link just awoke the Wind Fish and everyone died. Link didn't care. The windfish didn't care. This could have been a huge part of the story. Link having to struggle with the ominous warnings, perhaps confronting the owl and abandoning his destiny or Marin finding out and being a part of the big picture. But no. Link is told several times that everyone will die if he wakes the windfish. All Link has to do to keep an entire island alive is to simply...give up and stay on the island...which, when you think about it, is better than being lost at sea, doomed to be killed. But no. He keeps going, doesn't hesitate for a second, doesn't confide in anyone in this or even bring it up. And when all is said and done, he doesn't care that any of this happened. Who won in this? Everyone dies in an apocalypse and Link dies a slow painful death due to starvation and dehydration.
 

Castle

Ch!ld0fV!si0n
Joined
Oct 24, 2012
Location
Crisis? What Crisis?
Gender
Pan-decepticon-transdeliberate-selfidentifying-sodiumbased-extraexistential-temporal anomaly
Given the shallow and highly haphazard nature of the writing in The Legend of Zelda, the Zelda games are not very philosophical. That being said, there are many nuances to the narratives and themes of many of the games. This doesn't exist on the surface, it is very subtle. But it's there.

To me the most philosophical game in the Zelda series is OoT. It contains themes that resonate with any human being. It is about life, maturity, and growth. It is a good old fashioned coming of age story. It is about the loss of innocence. Not only that but self sacrificing ones innocence for the greater good. I really do pity the Hero of Time. A simple boy thrust into a situation far beyond his comprehension and forced to unwittingly sacrifice so much of himself to save a land he barely knew. Both he and Zelda were meddling in affairs that simple children couldn't comprehend. And their innocent childhood mistakes cost them and others so much.

The Hero of Time had to grow up and he had to do it fast. He left his home and his very nature behind in order to venture out into a larger world and survive in it. Is that not something all of us, as human beings, can relate to?
 

Random Person

Just Some Random Person
Joined
Feb 6, 2010
Location
Wig-Or-Log
Twilight Princess: Overcoming predjudice. Really! I know people like to focus on the Twilight and the darkness, but when I think about it, I think about how Link has to grudgingly work with Midna for common goals and how they both distrusted each other until they started reaching their goals together. We gradually see Midna's attitude soften and after the Lakebed Temple - well, I don't know about you, but my main concern wasn't regaining my human form, it was keeping Midna alive! You get the Gorons overcoming their distrust of Hylians after Link helps them, people being afraid of his wolf-form, even as he's saving them, and ultimately, we meet the Twili ... who, when not brainwashed and crazy are actually good (albeit strange) people.

There is so much about this that I agree with. The concept of being a light character, one who does good to accomplish good, a twilight character, one who is willing to do bad to accomplish good, and a dark character, one who does bad to accomplish bad, is all over this game. TP wanted to show that light and twilight characters often see each other as enemies, but the true enemy is darkness. The ways that light, twilight and darkness symbolism are used is so abundant and fascinating, it's why in my first post I said I was rather surprised that others don't see philosophy in Zelda.
 

DarkestLink

Darkest of all Dark Links
Joined
Oct 28, 2012
The ways that light, twilight and darkness symbolism are used is so abundant and fascinating, it's why in my first post I said I was rather surprised that others don't see philosophy in Zelda.

Well maybe I'm just being picky, but I find these things mentioned in Zelda games to be themes, rather than philosophical ideas. The main problem is the lack of conflict within the ideas themselves. They don't really make you think. OoT was able to capture the essence of adulthood, time, and growing up beautifully. But when you really cut down Sheik's words and look at the basics....it's a pretty basic message. Not only is it not philosophical, but it's just plain common sense.

Maybe I'm looking at it wrong, but in my mind, philosophy needs to be new, or challenging or conflicting with other ideals. Zelda doesn't do that. The messages are simple, plain, and hardly debatable.

The only two "philosophical moments" I can think of are in MM and TP, neither are that big or thought provoking and both deal with the same theme: Forgiveness.

In MM, it was forgiving the Skull Kid. The giants forgave him and wanted Tatl and Link to as well. Tael also forgave the Skull Kid and tried to defend him, but Tatl brought along the concept of there being a line to forgiveness and that the Skull Kid had done too much.

In TP, it fit the other theme the game had going on for it. In this case, it was when Zant tried to turn Midna against Link, reminding that his people were the enemies of their people and by betraying him, she could help create a Greater Good for their own people. This is where Midna struggles to find a right answer.

However, neither of these were done all too well. in Majora's Mask, rather than confront the issue and have Link put into this tough position of having to either kill or forgive the Skull Kid, they cop out and say "Well it wasn't REALLY the Skull Kid...." and thus making everything he did OK....apparently. Twilight Princess didn't do a lot with this concept. Zant just tries once to tempt her, and though you can actually see the conflict in her mind, I felt it could have been highlighted a little more and perhaps brought back again. Maybe Zant would try to tempt her one more time later.
 

Shadsie

Sage of Tales
There is so much about this that I agree with. The concept of being a light character, one who does good to accomplish good, a twilight character, one who is willing to do bad to accomplish good, and a dark character, one who does bad to accomplish bad, is all over this game. TP wanted to show that light and twilight characters often see each other as enemies, but the true enemy is darkness. The ways that light, twilight and darkness symbolism are used is so abundant and fascinating, it's why in my first post I said I was rather surprised that others don't see philosophy in Zelda.

Yeah, I think it's my favorite Zelda game in part because of the "gray morality." My most favorite videogame ever (Shadow of the Colossus) is pretty much all about that - and though it's set in an open world where the player is invited to write their own philosophy to it, it seems like everyone I know who's played it comes away with something sad and achingly beautiful regarding the price of love and "doing bad to try to accomplish good and is it worth it." TP is a little lighter-hearted, actually, will still having that "touch o' gray."

I actually don't think I've played a videogame that was like taking a philosophy course or even reading most novels - so for those expecting "maor philosophy" I think they're barking up the wrong tree. I haven't played any of the Bioshock games yet, but from what I hear, those are based upon Objectivism / Ayn Rand's works and plays with it... but those are really the only games I've even *heard of* that actually *try* to be heavily philsophy based.

The Zelda series, of course, has always been about fun, but those squaking about how "those are just themes! Not philosophy!" - tone it down, don't be so serious and let us have our fun. There is a literary philosophy called "Death of the Author" and it's essentially about how once an author finishes a story and publishes it for the world to see, they have no control over how their audience interprets it. In other words, the imagination of the audience does apply and in videogames, the imagination of the player does apply. In fact, that's pretty much how most games - and especially Nintendo's titles - are set up to be.

I am aware that when I catch onto something "philosophical" or "spiritual" or just "deep themed" in Zelda that it's my mind doing it, my very active imagination - but so what? I enjoy that. I enjoy seeing stuff in these games that other people might not see and that even the programmers and scenario writers might have not been fully aware of. I'm not going to base my life or my religion around Hyrule or anything, but I can (and do!) still have fun.
 
Joined
Sep 28, 2012
Wow you guys are reminding me why I recently wrote my college essay on Zelda.
OOT is a pretty literal Bildungsroman (don't remember if I'm spelling that right, but it means coming of age) tale. Its pretty dark when you consider that Link has to fix the problem that he set into motion as a foolhardy child, and he has to see the effect of his mistake. Everything went wrong because he pulled the master sword. Even if others made the choice for him, it was his fault. The game is basicly him growing up and setting things right.

Also, I never really pondered the themes of racial tension in Twilight Princess, that's a pretty cool idea.

I guess the philosophy of these games is derived from the player's experience, another reason why I believe games are the superior medium.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top Bottom