What could Nintendo have done besides the downfall timeline?

[CrimsonFenrir]

This makes sense, however the paradoxes present in Ocarina of Time (Song of Storms, time-traveling Goddess cubes) are not fixed because the CT occurs in a new universe. Frankly, the evidence that the Royal Family being warned about Ganondorf's plan changes anything is pretty flimsy, other than from a loosely and poorly translated developer quote. The time travel should also lead to the creation of two different Links if it were truly just created by a natural-split (as in Avengers: Endgame). Also, the universe rewrites itself in both Skyward Sword and Oracle of Ages; I do not see why this would not be the case in Ocarina of Time.

I'm basically saying that if you want any of these characters to have free will, you need to change physics. Because if everything is cause-and-effect, the only freedom is from the First Cause and everything is an effect from that. If everything is random, then we need the infinite multiverse to account for the infinite combinations of randomness. If some things are cause and effect and some things are random, then there would need to know exactly what is random and what is cause and effect to determine how much free will we truly have.

This is why we should treat the Zelda timeline like a single, unified timeline. One game after another after another. Otherwise, it becomes not a timeline, but a list of possible universes. And ultimately that's what we should do with the Downfall Timeline: it only works when we incorporate a multiverse where free will does not exist. And the child timeline seems self-evidently impossible. Meaning all games must occur after the sealing of Ganondorf in Ocarina of Time by Link and the sages, not in three separate universes within the Zelda multiverse.

The Song of Storms loop is an example of what's called a Bootstrap Paradox. It's difficult to think about because such a thing is its own origin, ultimately having no true origin. One possibility for the beginning of the loop, however, would be if it were inserted from an erased timeline. That is to say that the song was created in the future and then sent back in time to be taught to the windmill keeper, who would then teach Link, who would then use it to drain the well... thus replacing the song's first origin. Time rewrites itself because no event occurs which prompts the creation of the song, as the song already exists.

I didn't know that the cubes were time-traveling, though. I think that changes things, but I need more time to think about it.

What was the developer quote, and what would be the most accurate translation of it that you can provide? Genuinely curious.

Haven't played Skyward Sword or the Oracle games yet.

 

[YoungGanon23]

i like the idea of a Downfall timeline because creates continuity to the old games with Ocarina of Time like originally was planned

 

[mαrkαsscoρ]

i like the idea of a Downfall timeline because creates continuity to the old games with Ocarina of Time like originally was planned

but do you think the original plan involved the games only connecting when you get a game over in oot?

 

[Moblinking5000]

but do you think the original plan involved the games only connecting when you get a game over in oot?

No, but consider the following fcts:

A. Ganon is sealed with the Triforce of Power instead of the complete TF (like in the IW) at the AT end of OoT, and we didn't have any way of knowing what happened to him on the CT back in 1998, not to mention that OoT has sages of different races whereas the IW sages from ALttP's BS were all human

B. In modern canon, the events of TWW are the sequel to OoT taking the spot of ALttP, and there's no room for it in the CT due to TP, not to mention that the Zelda 2 town names make no sense in the CT

C. Despite all these problems with ALttP being connected to OoT, there were statements from the developers that the two games are connected, with OoT having connections to the IW, one of the most prominent story beats being that both the IW and OoT give Ganon's origin backstory, both including him entering the SR and laying hands on the Triforce

Yeah, the DT solution might not be the EXACT same plan that they had in mind in 1998, but it's pretty close, and it resolves the above plot inconsistencies such as Ganon being sealed with the complete Triforce in this branch and clarifying that the OoT sages and the ALttP BS sages as being different while keeping OoT as the prequel to ALttP.

If ALBW, TFH, and (most likely) BotW are anything to go by, Nintendo seems to be focusing on the DT timeline too, which is interesting to me; even the only remake since the 3DS era(the one for LA) is of a DT game.

 

[mαrkαsscoρ]

No, but consider the following fcts:

A. Ganon is sealed with the Triforce of Power instead of the complete TF (like in the IW at the AT end of OoT), and we didn't have any way of knowing what happened to him on the CT back in 1998, not to mention that OoT has sages of different races whereas the IW sages from ALttP's BS were all human

B. In modern canon, the events of TWW are the sequel to OoT taking the spot of ALttP, and there's no room for it in the CT due to TP, not to mention that the Zelda 2 town names make no sense in the CT

C. Despite all these problems with ALttP being connected to OoT, there were statements from the developers that the two games are connected, with OoT having connections to the IW, one of the most prominent story beats being that both the IW and OoT give Ganon's origin backstory, both including him entering the SR and laying hands on the Triforce

Yeah, the DT solution might not be the EXACT same plan that they had in mind in 1998, but it's pretty close, and it resolves the above plot inconsistencies such as Ganon being sealed with the complete Triforce in this branch and clarifying that the OoT sages and the ALttP BS sages as being different while keeping OoT as the prequel to ALttP.

If ALBW, TFH, and (most likely) BotW are anything to go by, Nintendo seems to be focusing on the DT timeline too, which is interesting to me; even the only remake since the 3DS era(the one for LA) is of a DT game.

it's easy to forget that technically OoT and Alttp didn't work out anyway, Nintendo just said OoT is the start of the timeline and that was that

and I think the focus on the DT lately is just coincidence, though this does makes me wonder what comes next after Botw2 for the chronology

 

[Moblinking5000]

it's easy to forget that technically OoT and Alttp didn't work out anyway, Nintendo just said OoT is the start of the timeline and that was that

They actually said in interviews around OoT's release that it deals with the IW.

 

[Bowsette Plus-Ultra]

They actually said in interviews around OoT's release that it deals with the IW.

I wonder if that was a plan early in development. The conflicts we see in Zelda games never come close to anything that could be classified as war, but the idea of it dealing with the Imprisoning War might be an idea from early development.

 

[mαrkαsscoρ]

They actually said in interviews around OoT's release that it deals with the IW.

when does the IW happen? it couldn't have been during Link's 7 year slumber

 

[Bowsette Plus-Ultra]

when does the IW happen? it couldn't have been during Link's 7 year slumber

It's not commonly known, but the IW was only fought when no one was looking.

 

[Spiritual Mask Salesman]

To be honest, I think the Downfall timeline is fine as a concept. There was never really any placement of A Link to the Past that I felt was satisfying back when people were only making two split timeline theories, the Downfall Tineline fixed the issue of there being 3 sequels to Ocarina of Time.

I definitely still think this but for the last few days I've been thinking about what is posited in the OP, that being an alternative Nintendo could have done to the Downfall Timeline. My best answer is: the simpliest solution is that they never should have authorized the publication of the timeline when Hyrule Historia released. No timeline, there would be no issues, save for the issues that existed back when the timeline wasn't revealed. I look back at it as a pretty chaotic time for theory crafting, because a lot of theorists were focused more on proving their timeline, and would sometime make theoretical connections between games based on their timeline which just circles back to timeline theorizing. There was some instances of non-timeline focused theorizing but it didn't happen often. I think it became a lot easier to do real theory crafting on aspects other than the timeline when the official timeline was revealed.

But yeah, if we didn't have the official timeline that bliss of open ended freedom to create your own timeline without there being a published official version that undermines what you created would still be intact, and I guess some fans preferred that while it was still a thing.

 

[Uwu_Oocoo2]

I definitely still think this but for the last few days I've been thinking about what is posited in the OP, that being an alternative Nintendo could have done to the Downfall Timeline. My best answer is: the simpliest solution is that they never should have authorized the publication of the timeline when Hyrule Historia released. No timeline, there would be no issues, save for the issues that existed back when the timeline wasn't revealed. I look back at it as a pretty chaotic time for theory crafting, because a lot of theorists were focused more on proving their timeline, and would sometime make theoretical connections between games based on their timeline which just circles back to timeline theorizing. There was some instances of non-timeline focused theorizing but it didn't happen often. I think it became a lot easier to do real theory crafting on aspects other than the timeline when the official timeline was revealed.

But yeah, if we didn't have the official timeline that bliss of open ended freedom to create your own timeline without there being a published official version that undermines what you created would still be intact, and I guess some fans preferred that while it was still a thing.

To be honest, Nintendo seriously limited themselves by having a canonical timeline. This creates issues for them, firstly because it means that now they have to stick to it. They can't go all out with concepts they want because now they have a canon they need to stick to. We see that with BotW, where they thought it'd be sick to put in references to pretty much EVERY Zelda game. When they then had to explain those and explain when the game takes place, they retreated back to the "I dunno figure it out yourselves" excuse that would have been fine, normal, and accepted pre timeline.
Another issue they stuck themselves with was with the Fandom. Now without any timeline-solving to occupy us, all we have left to do it poke holes in their timeline. And there are a lot of holes because before OoT, only a few games were really made to go in a certain order. The order of the games within the DT make perfect sense, but the existence of the Downfall Timeline by itself doesn't. And now it's canon. And then you get threads like this one (very good thread btw) trying to figure out how that makes sense because canonical it has to.
All that said (sorry for the rabbit trail), I'm glad we have the timeline. I'm glad we have something we can fall back on as fact. But trying to establish why a fact does indeed qualify as one can make you question it a little bit.

 

[Spiritual Mask Salesman]

To be honest, Nintendo seriously limited themselves by having a canonical timeline. This creates issues for them, firstly because it means that now they have to stick to it. They can't go all out with concepts they want because now they have a canon they need to stick to. We see that with BotW, where they thought it'd be sick to put in references to pretty much EVERY Zelda game. When they then had to explain those and explain when the game takes place, they retreated back to the "I dunno figure it out yourselves" excuse that would have been fine, normal, and accepted pre timeline.
Another issue they stuck themselves with was with the Fandom. Now without any timeline-solving to occupy us, all we have left to do it poke holes in their timeline. And there are a lot of holes because before OoT, only a few games were really made to go in a certain order. The order of the games within the DT make perfect sense, but the existence of the Downfall Timeline by itself doesn't. And now it's canon. And then you get threads like this one (very good thread btw) trying to figure out how that makes sense because canonical it has to.
All that said (sorry for the rabbit trail), I'm glad we have the timeline. I'm glad we have something we can fall back on as fact. But trying to establish why a fact does indeed qualify as one can make you question it a little bit.

Yeah this is a really good point.

I do find it odd that they decided to even release the timeline, my best guess is that it was just following the trend of the timeframe. They released the Metroid timeline ahead of the release of Other M in a Nintendo Power magazine. I think they also did a few more timeline reveals for other franchises, so I guess they just wanted to follow suit with Zelda. I guess the decision was also a hope that releasing the timeline would stop the constant questioning on whether it existed to begin with.

But yeah, with what they've done with BotW, leaving it ambigiously "at the end" just reboots the timeline for anything they make after BotW, which they've obviously done to eventually return to a point where they don't have to worry about fitting a continuity while creating a new game.

 

[Mikey the Moblin]

do find it odd that they decided to even release the timeline

I remember a TON of fans begging for a timeline

 

[Spiritual Mask Salesman]

I remember a TON of fans begging for a timeline

I mean sure, but Nintendo didn't have to do what those fans wanted. I can't really remember if the majority opinion back then was a hope that it would be released, but if that was the hope, dang the fandom changed tune instantly, there was so much hate at the concept of the downfall timeline.

 

[Mikey the Moblin]

I mean sure, but Nintendo didn't have to do what those fans wanted. I can't really remember if the majority opinion back then was a hope that it would be released, but if that was the hope, dang the fandom changed tune instantly, there was so much hate at the concept of the downfall timeline.

Or the people who wanted a timeline stopped asking for a timeline in contentment