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TMC and FS Placement

TwilightKing

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Ok, so this is my last post before I release my timeline. The last thing that I had trouble with is The Minish Cap and Four Swords placement. From what I know these games can be placed right after MM and before TP or after TP and Before FSA and then ALttP. So I want to know your opinion before I make my new AND improved timeline. :)
 

SecretNerd-sshh

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-Well we have only two games with Gerudos. FSA and OoT.
-We have Zora in throughout the entire CT...but not in the FSS or SS, or anywhere in the AT.
-Gorons are wandering travelers in SS and in TMC.
-Demise makes the backstory of ganon in FSA possible to be another ganon.

Id say theres alot of evidence for the entire FSS to be pre OoT between SS.

-The Gerudo tribe are present for a period of time FSA-->OoT. Theres no Fanfic reappearances out of nowhere.
-SS proves that pre OoT there arent Zora, and the Zora are not in the entire FSS or anywhere on the AT. So having zora reappearing and disappearing constantly in the middle of the CT needs alot of fanfic explanation.
-Nomadic Gorons are in both SS and TMC, and by the time of OoT they have a civilization.
-2 ganons with 2 back stories is now more than possible with Demise.

Im not saying that the FSS has to go pre OoT, im just saying SS has provided evidence for it, and it should be considered possibly.
 
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Joined
Nov 29, 2011
Demise makes the backstory of ganon in FSA possible to be another ganon.

2 ganons with 2 back stories is now more than possible with Demise.

Can you possibly explain this in spoiler tags or something? I really like to see this.

The Gerudo tribe are present for a period of time FSA-->OoT. Theres no Fanfic reappearances out of nowhere.

The only problem that I see here is that if Ganon shows up in FSA and was sealed or something, how is he back in OoT? The Royal Family would know of Ganon right? There's no way the King would trust him either. Unless your going to say that they are different Ganon's because of this back story that Demise makes but still, why would the King still trust someone with the same name? Funny...
 
Joined
Oct 11, 2011
Here are my opinions on the placement of the FSS:

TMC, FS and FSA show us a Hyrule without any neighbouring countries and different tribes living together, a fact which supports a placement after OoT (since Hyrule got united just prior to OoT). Another thing that points towards a post-OoT placement is the existence of Ganondorf; it seems very strange that there are two Ganondorfs at the same time (the OoT Ganondorf that tries to take the Triforce and the FSA GAnondorf that is sealed in the Four Sword), although it is not impossible.

Another factor that needs to be considered when placing the FSS is the links between the FSA and AlttP: the geography is fairly similar, the Palace of the Four Sword exists in AlttP, the thieves that move to a forest, etc.. Any way, the FSA Ganondorf can be used to introduce a new Ganondorf to the series, a Ganondorf which conveniently can be the one that appears in AlttP.

The Sacred Realm had been forgotten for a long time prior to Ganondorf finding it in the back story of AlttP. In TP, the absence of the Triforce and the ruined Temple of Time indicates a decline in the Triforce religion. The FSS shows a Hyrule without the Triforce religion. This makes it quite logical to put the whole FSS in-between TP and AlttP.

My suggestion is then: TP---TMC---FS/FSA---AlttP.

Here are some counter-arguments:

Id say theres alot of evidence for the entire FSS to be pre OoT between SS.

-The Gerudo tribe are present for a period of time FSA-->OoT. Theres no Fanfic reappearances out of nowhere.

The Gerudos are quite unlike each other in FSA and OoT, moreover, AlttP Ganon leads a band of thieves, which is indicative of the Gerudos continued existence.

-SS proves that pre OoT there arent Zora, and the Zora are not in the entire FSS or anywhere on the AT. So having zora reappearing and disappearing constantly in the middle of the CT needs alot of fanfic explanation.

Placing FSS after TP makes the only appearing Zoras the ones in Holodrum and Labrynna.

-Nomadic Gorons are in both SS and TMC, and by the time of OoT they have a civilization.

Nomadic Gorons exist in WW too, otherwise is it a good point.

/Blue Window
 

SecretNerd-sshh

Its a secret to everyone
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The only problem that I see here is that if Ganon shows up in FSA and was sealed or something, how is he back in OoT? The Royal Family would know of Ganon right? There's no way the King would trust him either. Unless your going to say that they are different Ganon's because of this back story that Demise makes but still, why would the King still trust someone with the same name? Funny...

Every male gerudo becomes king. Kings sharing the same name is more common than not. FSA ganon, no matter his actions, do not reflect OoT ganondorf at any point in time because they are not the same person.

TMC, FS and FSA show us a Hyrule without any neighbouring countries and different tribes living together, a fact which supports a placement after OoT (since Hyrule got united just prior to OoT).

Civil wars have been spoken of in 3 games, OoT, Alttp and TP. In TP it was specifically stated by Lanayru; the land of Hyrule and all its tribes were content in mind and body for many ages, until word of the Sacred Realm and its wish-granting Triforce spread throughout the world. Eventually, a group of Interlopers attempted to use the dark magic they had mastered, the Fused Shadow, to seize control of the Sacred Realm and take the Triforce for themselves. This caused the various tribes of Hyrule to quarrel and fight.

Now, in actuality this helps pre OoT placement because of SS. Impa and Hylia wanted the Triforce to be forgotten, which is a great explanation as to why the triforce is nowhere to be mentioned in any of the FSS games at all. This fits the FSS to a tee- a retro Hyrule with developing civilisation with a lost Triforce legend. That is, until the interloper backstory comes into play and various tribes struggle for power and the triforce....


Another factor that needs to be considered when placing the FSS is the links between the FSA and AlttP: the geography is fairly similar, the Palace of the Four Sword exists in AlttP, the thieves that move to a forest, etc.. Any way, the FSA Ganondorf can be used to introduce a new Ganondorf to the series, a Ganondorf which conveniently can be the one that appears in AlttP.

I personally do not believe geography takes priority over races when it comes to timeline placement. It has never been stated to my knowledge to effect timeline placement, where as races ARE important to timeline placement stated on record multiple times by Eiji himself. (Zelda Box 2002, Nintendo Power 2008).

The Sacred Realm had been forgotten for a long time prior to Ganondorf finding it in the back story of AlttP. In TP, the absence of the Triforce and the ruined Temple of Time indicates a decline in the Triforce religion. The FSS shows a Hyrule without the Triforce religion. This makes it quite logical to put the whole FSS in-between TP and AlttP.

I stated this above but ill explain again, SS sets up the disappearance of the Triforce from all the races pre OoT, which allows FSS to fit in there just as well. On top of that, the triforce still needs to be placed in the SR pre OoT, a time before all tribes were in harmony and the triforce was out of sight out of mind. Tie this in with the Gorons being nomadic, absence of the Zora, and Gerudo being able to exist in back to back titles, It pretty much supports pre FSS placement flawlessly as far as races go.


The Gerudos are quite unlike each other in FSA and OoT, moreover, AlttP Ganon leads a band of thieves, which is indicative of the Gerudos continued existence.

Alttp Ganon backstory happened many centuries before the actual events of alttp. It in no way proves the Gerudos continued existence. Also, the entire backstory of Alttp wasnt even released with the remake on GBA, making its canon up for serious debate to begin with.



Placing FSS after TP makes the only appearing Zoras the ones in Holodrum and Labrynna.

Not true, alttp has zora as well. It really doesnt make a difference with how you place the FSS as far as reappearing, but, why do that when it fits perfectly pre OoT?



Nomadic Gorons exist in WW too, otherwise is it a good point.

Nomadic Gorons do exist on the AT, but thats after it is flooded. If you are placing FSS on the CT it has nothing to do with the AT.


Now here is how this timeline would flow if we were to place the FSS pre OoT.

-Events of SS
-Triforce is taken to the SR.
-Unconfirmed amount of time after SS, events of TMC take place, with many things in common to SS.
......Nomadic Gorons
......No Zora
......Relations and connections to the "Sky"
......Absence of Triforce, as it was hidden in the SR to be forgotten.
-Unconfirmed amount of time after TMC, the events of FS take place.
-Events of FSA take place.
......1st incarnation, Ganondorf is sealed in the four sword as Ganon (Pig form)
-Unconfirmed amount of time after FSA. Interloper backstory stated in TP. A war between all the tribes. Creation of the Twilight realm, ect ect.
-Possibly another civil war 7 years before OoT. Or the same war stated above.
-OoT.
......2nd incarnation. Ganondorf(2) backstory.
......Timeline splits.
AT
- Events of WW.
......Ganondorf(2) is killed.
-Events of PH
-Events of ST
-Unconfirmed amount of time after ST, Pig ganon escapes 4 sword seal.
-Unconfirmed amount of time, events of LoZ take place.
......Pig ganon is killed.
-Events of AoL
......Failed revival attempt of Pig ganon.

CT
-Events of MM
-Events of TP sometime after
......Ganondorph(2) is killed.
-Unconfirmed amount of time, FSA pig ganon escapes seal and leads to THE REAL Imprisoning War backstory of Atttp.
-Centuries later events of alttp take place.
......Pig ganon is killed.
-LA, OoX take place (Whichever order)
......Failed revival attempt on Pig ganon.


There you have it, 2 ganondorfs pre OoT. 1 human, 1 pig death on each branch(4 deaths) And 1 failed revival on each branch. All races progress/digress seamlessly, and as stated by Eiji, races do play an important role. Im not saying this is what it is, but there is evidence to support this claim now because of SS. Im not gonna lie, anyone who would have placed the FSS pre OoT before SS came out, I would of brushed off as newbish. But it has to be considered seriously now imo.
 
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TwilightKing

Stay Frosting!
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Ylisse: Turbulant Era
Yea, makes plenty of sense... But then again I remember the great Deku Tree Sprout saying " Some time ago, before the King of Hyrule unified this country there was a fierce war in this county." then he later explains how OoT Link's mother was wounded in this war etc etc.
 

SecretNerd-sshh

Its a secret to everyone
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Location
USA
Yea, makes plenty of sense... But then again I remember the great Deku Tree Sprout saying " Some time ago, before the King of Hyrule unified this country there was a fierce war in this county." then he later explains how OoT Link's mother was wounded in this war etc etc.

Im not sure what your trying to point out but yeah, that is the hyrulian civil war. The interloper BS, and civil war are two different occasions where the various races conflicted and it isnt clear as to whether one relates to the other or not.
 
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Joined
Nov 29, 2011
We have Zora in throughout the entire CT...but not in the FSS or SS, or anywhere in the AT.

You sure?

AT
- Events of WW.
......Ganondorf(2) is killed.
-Events of PH
-Events of ST
-Unconfirmed amount of time after ST, Pig ganon escapes 4 sword seal.
-Unconfirmed amount of time, events of LoZ take place.
......Pig ganon is killed.
-Events of AoL
......Failed revival attempt of Pig ganon.

There's someone I like you to meet on the AT.

zora.png Hello. I am a Zora from LoZ.
:lol:
 

Locke

Hegemon
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I personally do not believe geography takes priority over races when it comes to timeline placement. It has never been stated to my knowledge to effect timeline placement, where as races ARE important to timeline placement stated on record multiple times by Eiji himself. (Zelda Box 2002, Nintendo Power 2008).
Sorry, I don't have time at the moment to look up the Zelda Box or address the rest of your post, but...

Nintendo Power: What was the impetus for creating the game's multiple races-Gorons, Zoras, the Gerugo, Kokiri, etc.-and what was the process like for creating them?

Eiji Aonuma: In creating a unique cast of characters, we thought it would be effective to have nonhuman races, each of them invested with different lifestyles and mannerisms. Almost from the beginning we had decided on Kokiri to live in the forest, Gorons to live in the mountains, and Zoras to live in the water.

At first we imagined the Zoras as monsters sort of like mermen, who would be antagonists to humans. The original concept was strong. However, after we had decided Princess Ruto was going to be one of the sages, that image didn't seem to fit anymore, so we changed them to be a friendly race more like humans.

Each of the races has a character fated to become on the sages later on. We named them after towns in The Adventure of Link so it would appear that the towns had been named after them. (In the world of Zelda, the ventus of Ocarina of Time occur before the events of The Adventure of Link.)
The section of this quote pertaining to races is confined to the requirements of OoT gameplay, not its story - internal or interconnected with other games. The section pertaining to connections with other games (AoL) is about the Sages, not the races. Notice that the races existed first, and they had to change the races (Zora) to conform to the story point - they weren't included as a story point. This notion of races appearing as they suit the needs of the game recurs in many interviews. One with Aonuma and the writers of the manga comes to mind, in which Aonuma describes the need for a flying race in WW to suit the terrain of the game. So I see races and geography on the same level and only consider them if I have good reason to. (and "because it supports my theory" or "because it refutes your theory" aren't good reasons, btw)
 

SecretNerd-sshh

Its a secret to everyone
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Location
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You sure?



There's someone I like you to meet on the AT.

View attachment 20399 Hello. I am a Zora from LoZ.
:lol:

That is a cute lil feisty river zora. Heres a link to help you distinguish the difference, http://www.zeldawiki.org/Zora
Youll notice in the first paragraph it even explains that the first appearance is in alttp. If you want to learn more about river zoras as well its on a separate page, click the link on top.

As far as Locke, gimme some time to dig the article up, the one you have is wrong, but it is the first thing you get in google. Although the fact that they change races to suit the story that suits the gameplay could easily support the ideal that races have more of an impact on the timeline, since the story is effected.
 
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Joined
Oct 11, 2011
To SecretNerd-sshh

Civil wars have been spoken of in 3 games, OoT, Alttp and TP. In TP it was specifically stated by Lanayru; the land of Hyrule and all its tribes were content in mind and body for many ages, until word of the Sacred Realm and its wish-granting Triforce spread throughout the world. Eventually, a group of Interlopers attempted to use the dark magic they had mastered, the Fused Shadow, to seize control of the Sacred Realm and take the Triforce for themselves. This caused the various tribes of Hyrule to quarrel and fight.

Now, in actuality this helps pre OoT placement because of SS. Impa and Hylia wanted the Triforce to be forgotten, which is a great explanation as to why the triforce is nowhere to be mentioned in any of the FSS games at all. This fits the FSS to a tee- a retro Hyrule with developing civilisation with a lost Triforce legend. That is, until the interloper backstory comes into play and various tribes struggle for power and the triforce....

It is true that there have been several civil wars in the history of Zelda, however only the one preceding OoT resulted in the unification of Hyrule, so I can't se how your argument affects my original one.

Lanayru only says that the word of the Sacred Realm spread (and according to Jumbie's re-translation on ZeldaLegends, the battle was actually a struggle for Hyrule), not that the Triforce was forgotten. The Skyloftians wre quite ignorant of the Triforce to begin with, and there is no mentioning of the Sacred Realm in SS. (Lanayru's story is also not very accurate since she doesn't even hint at Demise attacking and the proro-Hylians moving to Skyloft.)

Alttp Ganon backstory happened many centuries before the actual events of alttp. It in no way proves the Gerudos continued existence. Also, the entire backstory of Alttp wasnt even released with the remake on GBA, making its canon up for serious debate to begin with.

Ganon is still said to be a thief, which nowadays strongly hints that he was a Gerudo, which suggests the continuous existence of the Gerudos.

Not true, alttp has zora as well. It really doesnt make a difference with how you place the FSS as far as reappearing, but, why do that when it fits perfectly pre OoT?

AlttP has River Zoras, not the normal Zoras. These Zoras are only present in AlttP, LoZ, AoL and OoX (forgive me if I'm wrong here), which means that they should go together, should one go by the tribes.

In the end, one has to choose one argument as the most important, so I guess we won't reach any decisive conclusion.

/Blue Window
 
Joined
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That is a cute lil feisty river zora. Heres a link to help you distinguish the difference, http://www.zeldawiki.org/Zora
Youll notice in the first paragraph it even explains that the first appearance is in alttp.

OK so there are 2 different types of Zora. :rolleyes: Never mind then.

But still that's wrong that the "river" Zora's first appeared in ALttP. They first appeared in the LoZ. Check this link out: http://www.zeldawiki.org/River_Zora
You'll notice in the first paragraph that it says they were introduced in the LoZ.
 

SecretNerd-sshh

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OK so there are 2 different types of Zora. :rolleyes: Never mind then.

But still that's wrong that the "river" Zora's first appeared in ALttP. They first appeared in the LoZ. Check this link out: http://www.zeldawiki.org/River_Zora
You'll notice in the first paragraph that it says they were introduced in the LoZ.

Yeah, your right. But I said that the first appearance of the friendly "sea" zora is in alttp. "King Zora" who gives you the flippers under the waterfall.


It is true that there have been several civil wars in the history of Zelda, however only the one preceding OoT resulted in the unification of Hyrule, so I can't se how your argument affects my original one.

Lanayru only says that the word of the Sacred Realm spread (and according to Jumbie's re-translation on ZeldaLegends, the battle was actually a struggle for Hyrule), not that the Triforce was forgotten. The Skyloftians wre quite ignorant of the Triforce to begin with, and there is no mentioning of the Sacred Realm in SS. (Lanayru's story is also not very accurate since she doesn't even hint at Demise attacking and the proro-Hylians moving to Skyloft.)

Im pretty sure you and I are not on the same page on this one....



Ganon is still said to be a thief, which nowadays strongly hints that he was a Gerudo, which suggests the continuous existence of the Gerudos.

No not really, ganon existing does not mean the Gerudos still exist. Its kinda like saying because of Impa the Sheika are still around.





AlttP has River Zoras, not the normal Zoras. These Zoras are only present in AlttP, LoZ, AoL and OoX (forgive me if I'm wrong here), which means that they should go together, should one go by the tribes.

I wouldnt go as far as to ever consider River Zora as a tribe, more of a species, but your point is taken. Although King Zora is a normal friendly zora in alttp, and seeing how he is titled King, and the Zora are a monarchy in every game they are present, I feel this is enough to distinguish a difference within alttp between the two Zoras.
------

Anyways, im not trying to push this theory on anyone, I actually have 3 timelines that I believe are all equal, and one crazy one 1 for fun. (Read Veran altering the past 400 years somewhere on this board)OP asked for ideas and stated that the FSS could go in 2 places....I simply showed him a possible 3rd that does work. And, pre OoT FSS does work just as good as any other popular placement.
 
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To SecretNerd-sshh

I have no problems with people putting the FSS pre-OoT. I actually think that the whole idea of being able to find one, ultimate timeline is unlikely to succeed (which is why I like the idea of accepting several placements simultaneously). However, it is fun debating!

No not really, ganon existing does not mean the Gerudos still exist. Its kinda like saying because of Impa the Sheika are still around.

My argument is only valid if Ganondorf is a Gerudo. If he is a Gerudo, the Gerudo must have existed when he was born. Since Ganondorf was born long before the actual events of AlttP, the tribe could have moved before the actual game. This means that the Gerudo's history would look like this on the CT (according to my theory):
1. Lives in Gerudo's Fortress --- 2. Unknown (Gerudo Desert still exists) --- 3. Lives in Desert of Doubt --- 4. Unknown

Ganondorf is born at #3.

This continuity allows the Gerudo to have time to move from their Fortress in OoT to a desert in FSA.

/Blue Window
 
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FS and FSA go together because FSA is a direct sequel. Just making sure you know.

Putting them between MM and TP does work. I find that it makes more sense to put MC before OoT, but your approach might work. Give it a shot and see how they mesh.
 

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