Twilight Princess Should Ganondorf Have Been in TP?

[Badwolf47]

Saddly, I cannot say... I personally don't know you all seem to know a lot about this stuff and well... I just don't know! it seemed like a mistake... but... he is one of the bad guys... so my answer is long and confusing!

 

[Josh]

Ganondorf is beginning to become a problem. He's adding to the list of what is dividing Zelda fans into two different groups. Some feel he's out grown his use, and that he's not really all that special anymore, and just becoming an overused villain. Then the others that feel he's still good, and we can make a lot more out of him in future games.

That's half of the problem to me. Some people think, great, Ganondorf is in it, that ruins this game. Okay. A little extreme. But it's almost to that point.

The other problem, is Zant. Zant was turning out to be the one of the greatest villains in the series ever, it seemed like he was the ultimate person. Later in the game, you see he was just a pawn of Ganondorf. Then Zant goes crazy so on and so forth. There's this group, that hates Ganondorf being in there, because he ruined Zant.

I guess it really just depends what group you're in. :\

 

[Shnappy]

Ganondorf is beginning to become a problem. He's adding to the list of what is dividing Zelda fans into two different groups. Some feel he's out grown his use, and that he's not really all that special anymore, and just becoming an overused villain. Then the others that feel he's still good, and we can make a lot more out of him in future games.

That's half of the problem to me. Some people think, great, Ganondorf is in it, that ruins this game. Okay. A little extreme. But it's almost to that point.

The other problem, is Zant. Zant was turning out to be the one of the greatest villains in the series ever, it seemed like he was the ultimate person. Later in the game, you see he was just a pawn of Ganondorf. Then Zant goes crazy so on and so forth. There's this group, that hates Ganondorf being in there, because he ruined Zant.

I guess it really just depends what group you're in. :\

And I'm in that "I hate Ganondorf being in there, because he ruined Zant" group. Dude, I was real disappointed. Sure, the final boss fights were pretty sweet in this game, but think about it if there was no Ganondorf, and it was just Zant. That would be the most epic fight ever. Even though Ganondorf ruined him, Zant is still pretty much my favorite Zelda villain ever. I love how he has this split personality, where he is so calm and sinister for most of the game, and then he explodes in the Palace of Twilight and becomes this crazy madman. He was the ultimate Zelda villain, and admittedly, I'm getting really tired of Ganondorf. Sure, he's the main villain of the series, but that doesn't mean we keep on having to bring him back. Can't he just die somewhere in the timeline (I don't pay attention to the timeline a lot, so don't try and debate his death and where it happens/has happened), and then we could have another villain take over for awhile? I think that that would be a great turn in Zelda games, as there are numerous villains in Zelda that I like more than Ganondorf.

 

[basement24]

I'm a bit intrigued with the people who say Zant was ruined by Ganondorf. I know everyone's entitled to their own opinion, but I have a feeling that if Ganondorf wasn't included, the same people would be complaining that Zant was too shallow. Once you get to him, he really wouldn't have much to say other than "Haha, you got here, now let's fight!" followed by a fight and his defeat. Game over, no additional Hyrule Castle level and the like.

Now, I know it wouldn't have been as lame as what I described above, but really it would have been A) a shorter game and a different ending. There wouldn't have been any big reveals as such, other than what he looked like under that gnarly helmet. No real twists to speak of, or threat still to come. He would have been a more run-of-the-mill stock badguy who just wanted power, got power, used that power, and got killed for having it.

I suppose in the end that's what he was anyway with Ganon, but really, he would have been no less without him.

 

[Midna666]

Ganondorf is beginning to become a problem. He's adding to the list of what is dividing Zelda fans into two different groups. Some feel he's out grown his use, and that he's not really all that special anymore, and just becoming an overused villain. Then the others that feel he's still good, and we can make a lot more out of him in future games.

That's half of the problem to me. Some people think, great, Ganondorf is in it, that ruins this game. Okay. A little extreme. But it's almost to that point.

The other problem, is Zant. Zant was turning out to be the one of the greatest villains in the series ever, it seemed like he was the ultimate person. Later in the game, you see he was just a pawn of Ganondorf. Then Zant goes crazy so on and so forth. There's this group, that hates Ganondorf being in there, because he ruined Zant.

I guess it really just depends what group you're in. :\

You do make a good point about Ganondorf.
I also agree that he's starting to become overused.
I think that the reason that Nintendo is using Ganondorf a lot is because they don't how to create another villain.
The only other villains that really made an impact on the Zelda series are Majora and Vaati.
Other then those two, the Zelda series does not really have interesting villains.
And the ones that are interesting(like Majora)get killed off after one game(I'm surprised that Vaati ever survived the first game that he was in).

 

[Werewolfy]

Ganondorf is beginning to become a problem. He's adding to the list of what is dividing Zelda fans into two different groups. Some feel he's out grown his use, and that he's not really all that special anymore, and just becoming an overused villain. Then the others that feel he's still good, and we can make a lot more out of him in future games.

That's half of the problem to me. Some people think, great, Ganondorf is in it, that ruins this game. Okay. A little extreme. But it's almost to that point.

The other problem, is Zant. Zant was turning out to be the one of the greatest villains in the series ever, it seemed like he was the ultimate person. Later in the game, you see he was just a pawn of Ganondorf. Then Zant goes crazy so on and so forth. There's this group, that hates Ganondorf being in there, because he ruined Zant.

I guess it really just depends what group you're in. :\

I wouldn't say Ganondorf is "overused," though I know some people do indeed complain about that. The thing is, though, that he's only in roughly 50% of Zelda games. I wouldn't call that overused. If anything, he's underused, considering he's the main villain of the Zelda series. But I can't complain about that, since it gives players a broader range of villains to fight anyway. Now, I haven't played every Zelda game, sadly enough, but there is Vaati, Bellum, Dark Link, and probably other villains, not including Ganondorf. I personally like how Nintendo don't stick Ganondorf into every Zelda game, and think TP could have done a lot better.

Okay, so my opinion has changed a little, and this is what I now think: Ganondorf did belong in TP. But at the same time, he ruined Zant. I think there should have been a compromise somewhere in there. Maybe Zant and Ganondorf were working together temporarily to get something done. Maybe Zant and Ganondorf didn't even know each other. But the fact is that Zant being Ganondorf's pawn didn't work out so well for him, as a character. Maybe Zant wasn't even in TP, which would have been a lot harder to work around.

I'm a bit intrigued with the people who say Zant was ruined by Ganondorf. I know everyone's entitled to their own opinion, but I have a feeling that if Ganondorf wasn't included, the same people would be complaining that Zant was too shallow. Once you get to him, he really wouldn't have much to say other than "Haha, you got here, now let's fight!" followed by a fight and his defeat. Game over, no additional Hyrule Castle level and the like.

Not necessarily. How do we know what Zant would have been like if he wasn't Ganondorf's pawn all along? He seemed very cool, very powerful, and shady in the beginning of the game. He was later revealed to be Ganondorf's pawn, which turned him out to be a whiny, over-dependent brat. He was revealed to be doing whatever his "God" wanted.

However, what if he wasn't? What if he was doing all this for his own gain, rather than Ganondorf's? My bet is that it would have changed his character, for better or for worse. He wouldn't seem as "shallow" I'd bet, considering that he'd be striving for something for himself, rather than for someone else. Not much I can say on this issue other than that, but we really don't have much on his character. Very little was revealed about him until the end.

Now, I know it wouldn't have been as lame as what I described above, but really it would have been A) a shorter game and a different ending. There wouldn't have been any big reveals as such, other than what he looked like under that gnarly helmet. No real twists to speak of, or threat still to come. He would have been a more run-of-the-mill stock badguy who just wanted power, got power, used that power, and got killed for having it.

It wouldn't have been too much of a shorter game. Especially if it was changed up. Now, I do also happen to agree that Ganondorf should have been in the game, just that Zant needed another role. Given this, it could have been a longer game, perhaps, but not necessarily, and the ending wouldn't have been too terribly different. Zant would have been, but not the actual ending. This is all supposing Link went against Zant first, then Ganondorf like he did in TP how it originally was, but that Zant wasn't Ganondorf's pawn.

I suppose in the end that's what he was anyway with Ganon, but really, he would have been no less without him.

Again I must say, not necessarily. Not much was revealed about Zant's character before the revelation, which would have changed drastically if he wasn't Ganondorf's pawn. Another thing to consider is that Nintendo pull all the strings, and they certainly would have made Zant a lot different if his relationship with Ganondorf changed.

 

[Niko Bellic 817]

Since a lot of TP's aspects are like OoT, then yes. Shiek, for example was in OoT which gave it that element of surprise. Same with Wind Waker involving Tetra.

TP also is the only 3-D zelda besides Majora's Mask where Zelda isn't in disguise. So it would make sense for them to make the player think that Zant is the main villain when it is Ganondorf yet again.

Also, if you get the master sword in a zelda game, then Ganon always appears in it. Zant wouldn't have made a good villain anyway.

Seeing the way he acted in the boss fight against him. Having Zant as the final boss would make the storyline of TP feel the same as in the other Zeldas. Zelda gets kidnapped, get items to reach the boss, kill the boss, the world is saved. It would be kind of pointless to have Zant as the final boss.

If he appears in the beginning of the game, you assume you fight him at the very end. The plot twist with Ganon being the final boss was very cool and is something that I would not want to be changed.

 

[basement24]

Again I must say, not necessarily. Not much was revealed about Zant's character before the revelation, which would have changed drastically if he wasn't Ganondorf's pawn. Another thing to consider is that Nintendo pull all the strings, and they certainly would have made Zant a lot different if his relationship with Ganondorf changed.

First I just want to say that was all really well thought out!

It's true, we didn't know much about him to begin with, but what I'm wondering is if the revelation wasn't about him being a pawn of Ganon, if you just remove that aspect all together, then he'd be very shallow.

There would have to be some kind of different clincher to his character at the end of the game to give him some kind of hook. If the game ended with him welcoming you to his palace, you fight him, he dies, then people would be left saying "Soo... that's it?"

In the end, I think most people who dislike Ganon's inclusion are willing to say that the removal of Ganon would have made Zant better, but then there's no offering to just how it would have worked. The simple removal without any addition would actually have made Zant shallow and ineffective. In the end he would have just been some kind of stereotypical villain.

So, the new question would have to be: If the Ganon aspect is removed, then what is put in place to make Zant not be a cliche creepy villain we know nothing about.

 

[DeletedUser9]

I'm afraid I have to say no.

When I first read about Twilight Princess, it seemed to me that Ganondorf was thrown in haphazardly. Then I actually played it, and it seemed alright until the end. Something was wrong. I couldn't figure out exactly what it was at the time, but something was just off with Ganondorf and the game's climax.

But I've been thinking about it, and I have a few points...

The game set up Zant as the villain. His story had a lot of buildup, including his assault on the world of light, him usurping power and transforming the Twili into Shadow Beasts, his relationship with Midna, etc. It was quite cool, and incredibly dramatic, and then it was all flushed down the toilet. Boom, Zant was a puppet and Ganondorf is the real evil. It was... weird and rushed. Not done very well at all. They could have pulled it off if they set up the story a little differently, but they didn't. It was especially weird, because it really felt to me that they intended Zant to be the villain, and then reworked the plot a little to fit Ganondorf in. Likely in an attempt to be more like Ocarina of Time. If they spent more time on it, it could have really worked, but it seems like they rushed it. (You know, in general, it seems like the game just needed more time.)

Then Ganondorf appeared. Despite him being mentioned a few times prior in the game, his inclusion was still more along the lines of a "final boss switch" in which the game randomly throws a new villain at you at the end of the game. It's typically a weak plot device.

But there was another thing. Ganondorf's inclusion wasn't just a downplay on Zant. All the game's drama and buildup was centered on Zant and Midna. Not Ganondorf. What this means is that when he did finally show up as the big bad-***, well, it was like "who?" Obviously it wasn't quite like that, as we all know who he is, but you get my point. Suddenly this new villain is thrown in. He's stated to be this big bad villain, worse than the guy you thought was the real villain, but in essence, he's just a shallow plot trick. Because there's no buildup. No stage setting. Nothing. Just "Oh, Zant wasn't the real villain. Go fight Ganon."

It sucks, because it makes both Zant and Ganondorf less that what they could have been, and in a way it's a disrespect to both characters.

They should have spent more time on it, or kept Zant as the main villain. Because, I'm serious. The Palace of Twilight was the games climax. In both plot and feel... to me at least. Hyrule Castle was more like... a bonus stage.

 

[Nepolink]

For me it didn't hurt Zant character... well in the beginning he was a very interesting someone, also my first thoughts was he would be the new villain of the Zelda series. After Midna told me that Zant's power was false i had already other thoughts. Also i didn't really like Zant that much in the beginning, since i miss Ganondorf in any Zelda game. Ganondorf is the TRUE villain of Hyrule and let it be. Well besides him we had Vaati, Majora, Onox, Veran and plenty others, i'll be happy they didn't put Ganondorf in every Zelda game, but i don't like to see always another villains comes in the games.

It was really suprising that Zant's power was just Ganondorf's, i don't think he ruined him. Zant has nothing to do in this game than play as Ganondorf's minions. But ALL the bosses in any Zelda games are just Ganondorf's minions. So it didn't hurt me that Zant was also one. Well he had a complete different story than all the normal bosses, that didn't make him a special one. One thing i have to say that Zant's battle was more epic than Ganondorf's, i liked the way he was in the boss rooms from some Dungeons.

I liked the way that ganondorf was revealed after Stallords battle. Normally Ganondorf shows up in the beginning of any Zelda game, so it was a real original idea to show him in the middle of the game. But i really feel for the ''Ganondorf hurt Zant'' people. I really wanted to see how he turned out if Ganondorf didn't use him. maybe he wasn't so crazy or just wacky. I really laughed at him anyway, i loved his priceless expressions, but really it didn't hurt me.

I was just happy to see Ganondorf back, his final battle was as usual epic, the best Ganondorf fight i have ever seen, specially the horse-back fight. It would be very nice if we had to shoot the Light Arrows instead of Zelda. And i wish the last battle was more difficult than waiting for Ganondorf's jump attack and pressing the A button repeatly. Ganondorf was real a part of this game, i didn't like this game if Zant was the true villain though, that's just my opinion. After Zant i really wanted to see more about Vaati or Majora, they were some interesting than Zant, specially Majora. I really wanted to know more about him/her, i'm sick of reading Fanfictions about Majora and Oni Link.

Ganondorf was a nice start for the first Wii game. He was really neccesary for me. Like every Zelda game. First we have to deal with Ganondorf after him we get a brand new villain. Actually i don't hope for a new villain in the next Zelda, i really want to see a older villain from the older Zelda games back.

 

[Werewolfy]

First I just want to say that was all really well thought out!

It's true, we didn't know much about him to begin with, but what I'm wondering is if the revelation wasn't about him being a pawn of Ganon, if you just remove that aspect all together, then he'd be very shallow.

There would have to be some kind of different clincher to his character at the end of the game to give him some kind of hook. If the game ended with him welcoming you to his palace, you fight him, he dies, then people would be left saying "Soo... that's it?"

In the end, I think most people who dislike Ganon's inclusion are willing to say that the removal of Ganon would have made Zant better, but then there's no offering to just how it would have worked. The simple removal without any addition would actually have made Zant shallow and ineffective. In the end he would have just been some kind of stereotypical villain.

So, the new question would have to be: If the Ganon aspect is removed, then what is put in place to make Zant not be a cliche creepy villain we know nothing about.

Yes, and these are all very good points. Not much was given away about Zant's character until that revelation, in which he turned out to be a whiny, pathetic brat. That being said, having Ganondorf taken out and having no remedy to Zant's situation, he would be really shallow, and a really bad villain. The feeling of there needing to be something more would override all other emotions about him, because he wouldn't be suited for the role. He'd be a solo bad guy who needs someone else to guide him.

Yet, again, if Ganondorf were taken out, or at the very least, his relationship with Zant changed, Zant's character would also have to change. Nintendo made him out to be powerful, shady, and evil, to say the least, throughout the game. He seemed like he would have been a very good and interesting bad guy to have thrown into the mix. Then he became psychotic. This is where Nintendo would have to change things. Rather than have him end up as that Zant, have him end up as he was made out to be in the first place: bad, powerful, driven by the need for more power. Of course, in the final encounter, more would have to be revealed about him, as is always the case, and this depends on what Nintendo want. But they could have changed him, and it could have been for the better, which would have added a lot to Zant, in my opinion, at least. Because, at the end, he really was "tacked-on" to Zant, which didn't work so well.

I'm afraid I have to say no.

When I first read about Twilight Princess, it seemed to me that Ganondorf was thrown in haphazardly. Then I actually played it, and it seemed alright until the end. Something was wrong. I couldn't figure out exactly what it was at the time, but something was just off with Ganondorf and the game's climax.

But I've been thinking about it, and I have a few points...

The game set up Zant as the villain. His story had a lot of buildup, including his assault on the world of light, him usurping power and transforming the Twili into Shadow Beasts, his relationship with Midna, etc. It was quite cool, and incredibly dramatic, and then it was all flushed down the toilet. Boom, Zant was a puppet and Ganondorf is the real evil. It was... weird and rushed. Not done very well at all. They could have pulled it off if they set up the story a little differently, but they didn't. It was especially weird, because it really felt to me that they intended Zant to be the villain, and then reworked the plot a little to fit Ganondorf in. Likely in an attempt to be more like Ocarina of Time. If they spent more time on it, it could have really worked, but it seems like they rushed it. (You know, in general, it seems like the game just needed more time.)

Then Ganondorf appeared. Despite him being mentioned a few times prior in the game, his inclusion was still more along the lines of a "final boss switch" in which the game randomly throws a new villain at you at the end of the game. It's typically a weak plot device.

But there was another thing. Ganondorf's inclusion wasn't just a downplay on Zant. All the game's drama and buildup was centered on Zant and Midna. Not Ganondorf. What this means is that when he did finally show up as the big bad-***, well, it was like "who?" Obviously it wasn't quite like that, as we all know who he is, but you get my point. Suddenly this new villain is thrown in. He's stated to be this big bad villain, worse than the guy you thought was the real villain, but in essence, he's just a shallow plot trick. Because there's no buildup. No stage setting. Nothing. Just "Oh, Zant wasn't the real villain. Go fight Ganon."

It sucks, because it makes both Zant and Ganondorf less that what they could have been, and in a way it's a disrespect to both characters.

They should have spent more time on it, or kept Zant as the main villain. Because, I'm serious. The Palace of Twilight was the games climax. In both plot and feel... to me at least. Hyrule Castle was more like... a bonus stage.

Yes, and this is exactly what I meant about Ganondorf being "tacked-on" to Zant. Nintendo did a good job of introducing what was thought to be a new villain. He seemed interesting and powerful, and had a lot of good villain potential. But then we find out that he's Ganondorf's minion, and it leaves something to be desired.

Again, I do think Ganondorf and Zant being in the same game could have worked a lot better if Zant wasn't Ganondorf's wimpy follower. Done right, it could have done wonders for the game. But it wasn't done right: it was done poorly, and really felt like Nintendo didn't actually care about Zant at all in the end. Rather, he was a filler character, used to introduce Ganondorf later in the game.

This is what I felt, at least.

 

[Midna666]

As I said before, I found Zant to be a boring character, until it was reveiled that he was just a puppet.
Once the connecting between Zant, and Ganondorf was made, his actions made more sense.

Before his connecting to Ganondorf was revelied, he seemed to be a boring power hungry character.

Also if Ganondorf was not in TP, then Zant could have not gotten his powers.

 

[Werewolfy]

As I said before, I found Zant to be a boring character, until it was reveiled that he was just a puppet.
Once the connecting between Zant, and Ganondorf was made, his actions made more sense.

Before his connecting to Ganondorf was revelied, he seemed to be a boring power hungry character.

Also if Ganondorf was not in TP, then Zant could have not gotten his powers.

Again, I say that not much was revealed about Zant's character until the final encounter. He seemed shady, mysterious, and powerful before he was made out to be Ganondorf's puppet, and not much beyond that was known. This is clearly the intention, which built drama for the final encounter, in which more was sure to be revealed.

Then he turned out to be even worse than I imagined, as he had no self-control at that point, no real drive for power, and was just made out to be pathetic. This was disappointing, and only made him a really bad character. If his relationship with Ganondorf were changed, however, I do believe he could have been a lot better. Zant would have (likely) changed a lot, for better or for worse, if Ganondorf were either taken out of the game or taken out of Zant's life. Then Zant, being a solo villain which is much more suiting for him, in my opinion, would be revealed to be something else.

So could have Zant gotten his own powers without Ganondorf? I see no reason for him not to! It was assumed he had done so before he was revealed to work for Ganondorf, so a simple change of the plot could have easily made it so. He would be a different person, therefore would have different capabilities. You also have to keep in mind that Nintendo pull all the strings, and they could have easily made all this so, without damaging any plot elements or characters, had they wanted to.

 

[Nepolink]

So could have Zant gotten his own powers without Ganondorf? I see no reason for him not to! It was assumed he had done so before he was revealed to work for Ganondorf, so a simple change of the plot could have easily made it so. He would be a different person, therefore would have different capabilities. You also have to keep in mind that Nintendo pull all the strings, and they could have easily made all this so, without damaging any plot elements or characters, had they wanted to.

It wasn't a real pain though. All the time you've seen Zant was with the Power from Ganondorf, and Midna told already that Zant's power was false. So something was shooting in my head about another villain. But i have to say Zant was quite interesting at first, maybe something like a blood thirsty Vampire or something. I think Zant will be even pathetic without Ganondorfs power, since i think that IS the real Zant at the end, and Zant told us already he was nothing until he found his ''God'', Ganondorf. he changed from nothing to a powerfull villain. Zant is made to be crazy, nothing disappointing about it, don't get me wrong Zant was really interesting but it's not something i can be really mad about.

But i think Zant can easily handle his own power. Remember that Midna also has some power, don't know it there's a difference between the normal Twili and the Twili ruler. I don't have enough experience about Twilight to reveal the real power out of Zant. I only think he was weak, just because of the story he told you at the end. Maybe he has some transformation power like Midna does, but cover the world into Twilight was out of his power.
It would also be interesting if Zant and Ganondorf were appart villains. I liked Zant's character at the end though. Unfortunately the Twili was good as a unknow force. Again, if Zant has his own power he would be better than his pathetic character at the end. But Zant has never got his own power, just because what he told to us at the end. Zant is foolish power hungry character jes, although i love his outfit and all.

Zant didn't show up on Hyrule if he got his own power i think, it was mostly like Ganondorf's order to cover Hyrule into Twilight and make a lot of other mess. Like changing Midna into a sort of Imp. He wanted to be King of Twilight, but he failed all the time because the lack of power or some other reasons. But if we have to look at the point that Ganondorf never showed up before until Zant told it, it hurts maybe a little bit, but it's not something i can call disappointment. Hmm, everyone has just his or her own opinion. For me it was pretty cool that Ganondorf was in the game, with a real new awesome outfit too.

 

[Gohma]

I agree that Ganondorf tends to be the final boss of too many LoZ games.
But look, in TP he HAD to be the villain.
The final fight against him is just so epic! =3

The problem with his TP appearance was that he was introduced as the main villain too late in the game.
When you think you saved the world by beating Zant, Ganon just come out of nowhere, saying that he was the real bad guy since the beggining...
It would have been ok if we knew a bit more about his past, etc...
That's what disappointed most players in my opinion.