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Left-Handed Option? Should There Be One...

Left-handed Option? Should there be one...

  • Nah, it'd be difficult/expensive to make two versions

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • It doesn't really matter, either way

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Yes! How will the lefties play it without it?

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    0
K

KokiriKleo

Guest
Im left handed :)
i didnt even notice the difference much in TP tho tbh,
but it may be better for lefties to have the option in the new game if more movement and precision is going to be involved in the sword play
 

Jesper

I am baaacccckkkk
Joined
Jan 25, 2010
Location
Norway
Honestly, when I were playing TP on the Wii, it felt weird for me, but it didn't matter that much because all of Link's moves were made to react to your movements.
In this game, I think I'm gonna find it hard to get used to. In this game you will use your hands much more than in TP, which will make it really awkward to actually control Link.

And honestly Anouma, you can't freaking make Link left-handed? It sure seems like the easiest thing to do, just freaking change Link's sprite! Do you have to make a completely new game to make Link left-handed? I mean in Counter-Strike, you have the ability to easily switch between having your gun in the right or left hand, by some simple clicks. Is it really that hard, Anouma?
 
L

Lucrei

Guest
It's probably already been mentioned as a point, but Nintendo aren't giving the impression they've thought this through... I mean, they're going on and on about wanting to make the game more accessible, and easier to play... but not including a left handed option seems to undermine all of this.
This. It's completely counter-intuitive, discriminatory, and against their philosophy. Not too mention they've been promoting dominant hand preferences since the Wii's launch with Wii Sports.

I know I wouldn't like it if it was me they were leaving out. Recently they've been giving a really good impression that they do understand the market and what gamers want from games, so I can't understand why they're in effect cheating some of their players out of the best possible experience, and perhaps cheating themseves out of some sales as well. Maybe Nintendo do have a ridiculously mind-blowing reason for not including one, but they owe it to the left handed players to at least explain why they should have to inconvenience themselves. And I for one would love to hear it.
You're hitting the nail on the head. You're trying to empathise with a minority, that's being discriminated against. I really respect that.

Others can say all they want, but you're right - they are cheating me and plenty others of the best possible experience of Skyward Sword. Now I'll play an awkward and counter-intuitive version.

Starting a petition sounds like a good idea though, and if Nintendo caught wind of it it might just make them reconsider. I mean, what's there to lose?
You'd sign one? I may look into it then.

Months of sweet, sweet gameplay.
Look - I know this is a Zelda forum, but that's just a super selfish reason to not support a group that are being discriminated against.

I'm sure you have a bundle load of other games you could easily play during that time and even if you don't - it's not like the wait would kill you. Be realistic.

I'm a lefty, and I find that it's pointless to make a left handed version. Why you may ask. Well it's because I tried it with left hand wii mote and right hand chuk, but it was too hard because our hands are used to using our left hand for analog or dpad so it's better to just have the right handed version.
All due respect, just because you find something "too hard" doesn't mean everyone else does. When I got my Wii I found it "too hard" to use the remote in my right hand, and used it in my left, which felt much more intuitive. Adjusting to use the analogue in my right hand took all of an hour of Twilight Princess.

You may personally see no value in a lefthanded version - but that's different from it being pointless.

If you insist on using left hand wii mote does it really make a difference? It will still work fine because if you swing left to right it will still swing left to right.

This doesn't change the fact that it is awkward and counter-intuitive. I've seen a video (see below) on IGN of a lefthander playing the SS demo - and whilst it was certainly playable for him, it looked awkward.



Because he holds the Wii Mote out to the left, Link is constantly holding the sword inwards, and naturally the reverse occurs when he held the sword inwards, Link held the sword out to the right.

There's nothing neccessarily gamebreaking there, but it totally ruins the idea of immersion, which is the entire concept behind the motion controls. There's no immersion if your on-screen character is doing the opposite to what you are.

Seems we've got the whole spectrum of opinions here XD But THIS is what I was trying to point out a while back, that gamers are used to using their left hand for a d-pad/analog-stick, and I think maybe this is part of Nintendo's reasoning? I don't know. EITHER WAY something would have to be sacrificed even if they put a left handed option in, because either you use your left hand for the sword, but have to re-learn how to move your character using your right hand, or you keep the precision of movement you had with your left hand but learn to wield the sword with your right.
North Apple - I don't think you're quite seeing it from my point of view. I'm not representing lefthanders that play the Wii righthanded, I'm representing those that play lefthanded.

To begin, a bit of reiteration. Since launch (with Wii Sports), Nintendo have advocated dominant hand preference (see Tennis, Golf, Baseball, Bowling) and by doing so, also advocated for lefthanders to use the nunchuck in their right hand. It would make little sense to switch the hand you were using the wii remote in, just to move a circular stick around 360 degrees.

So naturally lefthanders, unless they have an ample level of precision and accuray with their right hand, will re-learn to move their character with the right thumb. However, you seem to be under the impression that this is difficult. It's simple - it' simply rotating a stick 360 degrees - and as I said, for me personally took little more than an hour of Twilight Princess on day 1, to feel completely naturally. On the other hand (no pun intended), for lefthanders lacking that right hand precision (that some do possess), attempting to use the wii mote in their right hand is much more difficult. The analogue stick is not a problem for us - which I think you're getting confused about - therefore nothing needs "to be sacrificed" at all.

I do think it's callous of them not to include a handedness option. The extent to which this bothers me, though, is outweighed by the amount I want the game RIGHT NOW, and by the fact that it seems a number of lefties (myself included) are already used to left-thumbstick, and at least some of those that aren't can still adjust. Delaying the game significantly to accommodate the small number of outliers (even though I don't quite understand why it's so complex to include, Aonuma's explanation aside) just doesn't seem worth it.
Thanks for the admission of their decision being callous, but I still have a bone to pick here.

Firstly, and once again with all due respect, are you just assuming it's a small number of outliers? There's no evidence to suggest it's a "small number". You might want to reconsider this.

Secondly this idea of "adjusting". Ignoring for the fact that such a thing is both forced, unwanted, and unfair - what makes you think it's so easy? I know you are personally lefthanded, but this does NOT mean all lefthanders possess the same level of precision with their righthand that you do. You are simply priviledged, and taking that privilge for granted by stating that.

//

I apologise if I've re-covered some ground in this post, but I feel it's being overlooked.
 
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Rofang

Person
Joined
Jun 17, 2010
Look - I know this is a Zelda forum, but that's just a super selfish reason to not support a group that are being discriminated against.

Yes, it is.

Firstly, and once again with all due respect, are you just assuming it's a small number of outliers?
Yes. But we can explore the assumption in more detail if you'd like. Point by point:

* What percentage of aspiring Zelda players are left-handed? I know of no reason Zelda players should have a higher rate of left-handedness than the rest of the population (unless Link draws in the lefties?), so 8-15% should be fair - let's be generous and say 20%.
* What percentage of left-handed Zelda players would find it more natural to swing the Wiimote with their left hand? I have no idea here, but my impression was that at least half of the left-handed responders in threads such as this one mention using the thumbstick with the left hand. However, I'd be willing to assume as high as 75% want to swing it left-handed, just for argument's sake.
* What percentage of the left-swingers can't switch to right-swinging without major effort? Now, "major effort" is hard to define. Some can't switch at all, some can with a lot of awkwardness, and some can with not much awkwardness. Anyway, shall we again say 75% for argument's sake?
* What percentage of the can't-switch left-swingers will have their enjoyment of the game ruined because Link holds his sword in his right hand? Having not played the game left-handed (or right-handed), I can't say. I'll be generous and say 100% for now.

Multiplying these (again, perhaps generous) percentages, we get 20% x 75% x 75% x 100%, which is over 11% of potential Zelda players. So yes, that is actually a decent-sized chunk of players. I guess it's Nintendo's call whether they want to delay the game for those 11% (Aonuma seemed to imply it would be a herculean programming task to add a left-handed option, though I admit this assertion does baffle me a bit).

Now, personally, if I were guessing according to my own gut, I'd say it'd be more like 12% x 50% x 70% x 75%, which is more like 3% of Zelda players. I invite you to offer your own estimates, though you're also entitled to argue that even 3% is too many to disenfranchise. It's not fair to the outliers, however few they are in number, but at some point practicality may have to take over. There will be people who can't play the game as-is (whether because of handedness or some sort of disability); some of those people could be included with additional programming, but releasing a game that sells ample units to make a healthy profit in a timely manner is probably a bigger priority for Nintendo than maximizing fairness. Not that they want to be jerks about it, but that at some point there's a diminishing reward to them for being more and more inclusive; the labor outpaces the benefit.
 
L

Lucrei

Guest
Yes. But we can explore the assumption in more detail if you'd like. Point by point:

* What percentage of aspiring Zelda players are left-handed? I know of no reason Zelda players should have a higher rate of left-handedness than the rest of the population (unless Link draws in the lefties?), so 8-15% should be fair - let's be generous and say 20%.
Are you sourcing such figures from any particular census? Because that sounds like a very dated figure. I can't argue against it of course, but I'm curious to know if that figure has any backing. I'd probably agree with 20% being fairly accurate though - possibly a little over, or under. Of course, I'm no expert on the psychological patterns/tendencies, and/or if any genetics involved that cause the preferences to develop.

* What percentage of left-handed Zelda players would find it more natural to swing the Wiimote with their left hand? I have no idea here, but my impression was that at least half of the left-handed responders in threads such as this one mention using the thumbstick with the left hand. However, I'd be willing to assume as high as 75% want to swing it left-handed, just for argument's sake.
I have an issue here - forum threads are by know means an accurate way to measure something like this, as the sample is too specific. I'd say anywhere between 50% and 80% - I'd probably sit it, with consideration on 60% though.

* What percentage of the left-swingers can't switch to right-swinging without major effort? Now, "major effort" is hard to define. Some can't switch at all, some can with a lot of awkwardness, and some can with not much awkwardness. Anyway, shall we again say 75% for argument's sake?
Major effort is definitely hard to define. I can see the point you are making here. In reality I'm not too concerned about Skyward Sword - it's more making noise so it's rectified for the follow up Zelda - which will probably require the option of hand preference. That being said, I still think this very need to adjust will detract from the experience. However, those that achieve it probably would ultimately get the same enjoyment out of the game. However let's say roughly, 60% don't bearing in mind that forums, particuarly Zelda forums (i.e. hardcore), don't respresent the general public accurately.

* What percentage of the can't-switch left-swingers will have their enjoyment of the game ruined because Link holds his sword in his right hand? Having not played the game left-handed (or right-handed), I can't say. I'll be generous and say 100% for now.
I also can't comment on this, but from observation I'd say anyone with any ability to perceive things occuring around them would find it detracting to the overall experience and enjoyment. C'mon - It already managed to make Twilight Princess a little awkward, and that was just waggle controls. Definitely 90-100%. I'd put my basket in 100%.

So this puts my estimate at 20% x 60% x 60% x 100%, my logical maths gave me 4.8% - but I'm not sure this is correct. I don't know what formula you're using and believe mine to be incorrect. However if it is correct, that's nearly 5% - which I consider to be a considerable amount. Let's take TP - it sold 2.4 million (as of March 2008) which means about 226,000 people, by my figures would have been disatisfied if it utilised Motion Plus in the way Skward Sword plans to. Your generous estimate comes up as 264,000 and your personal, 72,000. From a purely economic standpoint - that probably isn't worth it - but what about in regards to reputation? Let's say 10% of those people raise complaints (if would probably be more), that's 7,200 individual voices, telling of their discrimination at the hands of Nintendo. That's not good for business. Again I apologise if my maths is incorrect. I don't like to use my own caluculations for this very reason - but at least your calculations should be valid.

I don't even like to use assumptions at all - they're rarely a true representation.

So yes, that is actually a decent-sized chunk of players. I guess it's Nintendo's call whether they want to delay the game for those 11% (Aonuma seemed to imply it would be a herculean programming task to add a left-handed option, though I admit this assertion does baffle me a bit).
Yes, and they don't really want to alienate that many do they?

If a full and detailed explanation was given as to why it can't be done - I'd accept that, as long as a promise was made to incorporate a left handed option for future titles.

It's not fair to the outliers, however few they are in number, but at some point practicality may have to take over. There will be people who can't play the game as-is (whether because of handedness or some sort of disability); some of those people could be included with additional programming, but releasing a game that sells ample units to make a healthy profit in a timely manner is probably a bigger priority for Nintendo than maximizing fairness. Not that they want to be jerks about it, but that at some point there's a diminishing reward to them for being more and more inclusive; the labor outpaces the benefit.

Firstly I agree with the practicality argument. Completely. The more I discuss this, the more I see it not happening. However it has to happen in the next iteration, and Nintendo need to notice it, and build it from the ground up.

People with disabilities isn't a far comparison - as they were never included into the gaming world to begin with (and who's to say the shouldn't be eventually - when technology allows?) - however this isn't a question about Nintendo becoming more inclusive, it's about them becoming MORE exclusive via negligence. There wasn't a problem - apart from a slight awkwardness to playing Twilight Princess lefthanded - lefthanders were in that way not disadvantaged, and were included in the audience. However, with Skyward Sword, they are taking a righthanded exclusive approach and making the market more exlcusive - rather than equally inclusive as it was before.
 

Rofang

Person
Joined
Jun 17, 2010

I have nothing specific to add here, except that my left-handed percentage linked to a Wikipedia page (for whatever that's worth), and I agree it was foolish of Nintendo to jump into the game design without having lefties in mind from the very beginning. Mistake already made, however, I now wants me some Zelda.
 
L

Lucrei

Guest
I have nothing specific to add here, except that my left-handed percentage linked to a Wikipedia page (for whatever that's worth), and I agree it was foolish of Nintendo to jump into the game design without having lefties in mind from the very beginning. Mistake already made, however, I now wants me some Zelda.

I guess the main pattern of questioning thought there, was that if Nintendo were willing to add the left-hand option, how would you feel about the delay?

Thanks for the discussion by the way. It beats the "righthanders play the right way" and "I don't have a problem with using a wii-remote righthanded even though I'm lefthanded, so why why delay it lolz?"
 

Rofang

Person
Joined
Jun 17, 2010
I guess the main pattern of questioning thought there, was that if Nintendo were willing to add the left-hand option, how would you feel about the delay?

I guess I'd grudgingly admit that it's the right thing to do, and that waiting until, say, third quarter 2011 instead of 1Q'11 won't kill me. All the same, I won't be campaigning in favor of the delay (or against, I suppose).
 

Austin

Austin
Joined
Feb 24, 2010
Should there be a left-handed option? Yeah. Do I think there will be one? No.

Based on the quote Jupiter provided, it's obvious that implementing a left-handed option isn't a simple task. It'd take quite a bit of time, apparently. Look at this from Nintendo's standpoint, lefties make up, what, seven percent of the population? They could take the time to rework the entire game over for such a small margin of people, but meanwhile the other 93% of the world would ***** and moan for their game, some because they don't really care about lefties and others because they have no idea what the delay is for.

Meanwhile, while everyone is complaining new games from Nintendo's compeitors are flooding the markets. They'd have to build up more and more hype in order to prevent people from forgetting about Skyward Sword which is more risk then it's worth. Too much hype and the game won't exceed expectations, and you'll get even more critics whining that they shouldn't have had to wait so long for such a disappointing game.

Keep in mind, I'm not suggesting that any of the above behavior is correct, I'm simply saying that I think it's the reality of what will happen. I sympathize with lefties, but I just don't think Nintendo consider it worth it to create this option.
 

NorthApple

GIVE ME THE APPLE!!
Joined
Jul 15, 2009
Location
UK :D
The analogue stick is not a problem for us - which I think you're getting confused about - therefore nothing needs "to be sacrificed" at all.

My apologies, I should have expanded. What I meant was that whether or not they decided to include a lefthanded option, some element of the existing control scheme would still be changed/lost for lefties anyway, I think 'sacrificed' was maybe too strong a word for it. I understand that it's not an issue to learn to use the control stick in your right hand, heck in TP I once switched around and tried it just for fun, and it honestly isn't a big issue. But what you say makes sense, and it hadn't clicked in my head... it would be a lot less of an issue to use the control stick in your right hand than to bother learning how to make precise swings with your right, so it still doesn't make sense for Nintendo to do this. Thanks for highlighting that though, and about the WSR thing, it was something I'd forgotten about XD Anyhow, I'm sorry if my posts seemed to contradict each other, I was still swaying around the line in what I thought. XD

In the end, no matter how good a reason Nintendo has, it still doesn't make not having one right (that's not a pun)... I guess everyone's opinions on this all hang on how desperate people are to play the game, no matter what state the control system is in... It reminds me a little of TP- people were desperate for the game and bought it up as soon as Nintendo hurriedly released it, despite the fact it could have been a lot more polished, and so they probably didn't get the best experience they could have if Nintendo/they had been willing to wait longer...
 

Rishian

The Meat Shield
Joined
Mar 9, 2010
Location
What is this place?!?!?
I think it will have to remain for the fact that making the game work left handed would be difficult. Along with the fact that most players who have been playing for a long time have already mentally made the change to using the analog stick on a certain side, I think it would not be right to change it over.

However, if they did figure out a way (other then just mirrioring the whole game) it would be nice to have the option of having the "lefty flip" for players who would like to do it, or even for a bigger challange for players who finish the game! ;)
 
C

Caleb, Of Asui

Guest
I don't think mirroring the entire game is an option, since that leads to a lot of confusion. It would cause a lot more confusion than Twilight Princess because both versions of the game would be on one disc. Instead of "Wii Version" and "GameCube Version" it would be "Left-Handed Version" and "Right-Handed Version."

With Twilight Princess, I remember reading something about Miyamoto playing the game left-handed and saying that it feels completely natural having Link be right-handed. With Skyward Sword, however, there's a much bigger issue with the Wii Motion Plus. Link's motions should match yours much more accurately, so problems are created when Link holds his sword and shield in the opposite hands from the way you hold them.

I don't think asking Lefties to adapt to playing Wii games right-handed is too much to ask, especially when the right-handed control scheme is much more similar to old controllers where the control stick was always on the left, no matter which hand is you dominant hand. I don't think anyone really ever thought of playing it with the Wii Remote in their right hand and the nunchuck in their left until Nintendo said, "Hey, this is how you play it if you're left-handed!"

With the Wii Motion Plus, however, more problems are raised. With the controls being much more fluid and exact to your motions, you want Link to hold the sword in the same hand that you old it in so that it matches correctly. Even if they do give us a left-handed option, however, I don't honestly think that would solve the problem entirely. To play the game in left-handed mode, you would have to hold the Wii Remote in your left and and the nunchuck with your right. That means you must use the control stick with your right thumb instead of your left. I don't think anyone is accustomed to doing this, even lefties, since traditional controllers have always had the control stick on the left. Maybe some people have with the Wii, but in the video in Lucrei's post, it looked like the player was having a lot of trouble getting the control stick to function properly.
 

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