Given that there is absolutely no justification for the infraction, and that in the event in question, there's undeniable proof that it was in fact Kitsu who was hostile and aggressive, not DARK MASTER, and that he did the infraction almost immediately after his own shouts were reported and he failed to discuss it or even give a reason, I think it's irresponsible to say it's not power abuse. The evidence for it is pretty damning. It's a taboo subject people don't want to touch. But there is no other way of looking at this. And it'd be wrong to ignore that it was done. It was completely unjustified. By definition power abuse is using your power against someone for your own reasons not in line with the established parameters for the use of that power. And that's exactly what happened. There's no point in being all PC about it to avoid the issue.
(OLD) Contest Unfair Infractions Here
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Fraxinus
chunky plant goop
I logged the conversation as it happened to a text document. I needn't refer to your post. I know what I'm talking about. Ok, let's see...
First "shot"
[Today 03:06] Kitsu : you literally just come to the shoutbox to make really creepy sexual comments. The wording is a little blunt, yes. I agree. But there is backing for this. @[Today 02:04] DARK MASTER : JJ, off-topic, but would you ever consider living in my closest? I'd feed you and we could play Rare Selda games? from a few days ago. Many more where that came from.
Second "shot"
[Today 03:07] DARK MASTER : Sexual?
playing innocent, baiting.Third "shot"
[Today 03:07] DARK MASTER : Oh, I no I think you mean sexuality.
[Today 03:08] DARK MASTER : Kitsu, a sexual comment would be talking about said, not sexuality.
[Today 03:08] DARK MASTER : So for example, I wasn't like, "Let's talk about porn"
[Today 03:08] DARK MASTER : That is far more sexual if I was even remotely sexual lol.Down-talking, baiting.
Fourth "shot"
[Today 03:09] Kitsu : No, you commonly imply it. You say things like wanting to play raer seldas and show people your master sword and **** like that all the time, and it's disgusting
[Today 03:09] Kitsu : And don't even play dumb, you know what you're doing asks not to play "dumb"
[Today 03:10] DARK MASTER : Are you trolling Kitsu? continues to play "dumb;" kitkat snaps
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[Today 03:10] Kitsu : oh **** off
[Today 03:10] Kitsu : You're the biggest troll to ever post on this site, you have absolutely no room to speak DM successfully baited Kitkat into his trap, reports the shouts and then proceeds to push for his demotion as administrator.
It looks like baiting to me. Sorry, but it does. I haven't interacted with DARK much lately, but I know he operates on a more complex level when he baits people. The fact is, DARK dislikes Kitkat a great deal and would love to see his undoing, especially now that he was promoted to an administrator.
It's silly, but I'd hardly call that sexual or baiting. And you're ignoring the fact that at the time JJ was doing his usual attack pattern and in context, DM's statement doesn't stand out against what JJ was saying. And I'd say Kitsu was being irresponsible there by again ignoring JJ and focuing on DM.
I fail to see in what universe that is baiting.Second "shot"
[Today 03:07] DARK MASTER : Sexual?
This is not baiting. Explaining to Kitsu that he's overreacting and giving a quoted example that would better fit Kitsu's assumption is entirely reasonable.
Kitsu attacked him without provokation. That fits many definitions of trolling. His question was entirely innocent.
Given that none of your "bait" actually is bait. And in context of that conversation, Kitsu did this very unprovoked, I'd say that he is definitely the one in the wrong.
DM doesn't hate Kitsu. He just hates how Kitsu has been treating him. Kitsu has been insulting DM for a couple weeks, now. ever since Kitsu attack me in this thread. I think you're really stretching the truth to claim it was baiting and I also think you're letting your past experiences with DM cloud your judgement in this issue. Experiences elsewhere in the past are not relevant here. And the actual information here doesn't support your claims.
Terminus
If I was a wizard this wouldn't be happening to me
DM has been up Kit's *** ever since he made a comment about being unsure whether or not DM was ever serious at a given time.
Fraxinus
chunky plant goop
I've been baited by DARK before; I can tell what classifies as bait for him. But, I've said what I've had to say on the matter. Thank you for providing a solid opposition--I can see where you come from. When this is resolved (however it may be), we do need both sides of the argument. I still think it's just amazing that this ballooned out of control like it did.
Jamie
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I find a lot of people think any action they disagree with is power abuse. Kitsu listed a lot more than just that conversation as reasons, and also DM did mention something sexual by asking Snow Queen personal questions. If kitsu had brought it up in the staff chat and we all agreed it was trolling with an 8 point infraction, would it still be power abuse, or just a bad conclusion?
I know for a fact that Kitsu didn't give any real evidence whatsoever because no such evidence even exists. You can scour everything about DM has had on the forums in the last two months and it doesn't support Kitsu's claims. He's imagined this entire thing. Whatever Kitsu said in staff areas after the fact to justify what he did cannot be supported by anything on the forums. The question you mentioned was not met with any sign of discomfort and it was immediately dropped the instant Kitsu complained about it, which I think anyone can agree was the right way to handle it. And yes it's power abuse. Him trying to justify it after the fact doesn't excuse that he did it in the first place. And I DO think you're being extremely irresponsible by ignoring Kitsu's personal attacks against DM and by ignoring the convenient timing between his personal attack last night and the subsequent infraction. It was a clear and undeniable conflict of interest. The very foundation of power abuse. And not liking discussing the issue of it isn't going to make it go away.
No, I don't think it was power abuse. I just think Kitsu got tired and aggrivated and acted maybe more out of frustration than anything else. Yes Kitsu should have talked this over but I doubt there were malicious intentions. I wasn't present last night so I haven't witnessed what was going on but based on the things I read I'll stand with my point the infraction is too heavy. Again; I have been away from the forums a bit lately so I missed a lot and have no clue what is really going on between members and if there are vendetta's.
I do think DM was behaving somewhat inappropriately, and I can see how what he did could be percieved as trolling or baiting. The lack of certainty or communication with the staff, and just the nature of the potential offense, however, probably means that a warning at most was warranted. The infraction should definitely be revoked due to it's shaky basis and considering that a majority of the members and staff disagree with it.
That being said, I don't believe Kitsu abused his power or that he deserves to be punished; he did provide a reason, which is that DM was trolling and baiting. Others have agreed with his assessment and share his opinion, and I know that Kitsu does genuinely consider DM to be a troll (as do others), so I think it's fair to say that his reasoning was sincere and not just done out of a personal dislike for DM himself. I can personally see how DM's actions could be viewed as that, especially in this scenario, and Mandy's post sums it up. It's how he often tends to come off, whether intentionally or not, and his statements and the way he expressed them reeked of sarcasm and playing dumb to me. Whether you disagree with his reasoning or think it was insufficient is another matter and certainly worth discussing, but it's what Kitsu percieved was occurring and he felt it was deserving of an infraction. It seems unfair to accuse him of power abuse or punish him on that basis; I'd say it was poor judgement at most, and saying it was anything more than that requires assuming Kitsu's intentions without actually knowing them, just as it does in regards to the behavior for which DM was infracted.
He didn't do the latter two, and he also, to my knowledge, never hacked the forums; he used an already existing exploit and posted some funny gifs. That isn't trolling by definition, so it isn't hypocritical. It makes you look a bit silly when you come in to attack someone with none of your accusations being remotely accurate or correct.
I do find you calling him a hypocrite amusing, since despite criticizing him for insulting others, you just recently called him pathetic, a creep, a troll, a coward, a hypocrite, and more (which is infraction-worthy behavior), even making an entire thread to bait and attack him. In fact, you constantly do this all the time, and obviously came in here for no other reason than to take a shot rather than actually contribute anything of value to the discussion.
That being said, I don't believe Kitsu abused his power or that he deserves to be punished; he did provide a reason, which is that DM was trolling and baiting. Others have agreed with his assessment and share his opinion, and I know that Kitsu does genuinely consider DM to be a troll (as do others), so I think it's fair to say that his reasoning was sincere and not just done out of a personal dislike for DM himself. I can personally see how DM's actions could be viewed as that, especially in this scenario, and Mandy's post sums it up. It's how he often tends to come off, whether intentionally or not, and his statements and the way he expressed them reeked of sarcasm and playing dumb to me. Whether you disagree with his reasoning or think it was insufficient is another matter and certainly worth discussing, but it's what Kitsu percieved was occurring and he felt it was deserving of an infraction. It seems unfair to accuse him of power abuse or punish him on that basis; I'd say it was poor judgement at most, and saying it was anything more than that requires assuming Kitsu's intentions without actually knowing them, just as it does in regards to the behavior for which DM was infracted.
He didn't do the latter two, and he also, to my knowledge, never hacked the forums; he used an already existing exploit and posted some funny gifs. That isn't trolling by definition, so it isn't hypocritical. It makes you look a bit silly when you come in to attack someone with none of your accusations being remotely accurate or correct.
I do find you calling him a hypocrite amusing, since despite criticizing him for insulting others, you just recently called him pathetic, a creep, a troll, a coward, a hypocrite, and more (which is infraction-worthy behavior), even making an entire thread to bait and attack him. In fact, you constantly do this all the time, and obviously came in here for no other reason than to take a shot rather than actually contribute anything of value to the discussion.
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I normally like to keep out of threads like this, but I'll give you guys my two cents anyway:
I understand how frustrating the job of both mods and admin is. I was a mod myself at another site back in the day. You guys are human, and you guys get frustrated with certain characters that exist in the community. However, what isn't okay is to act on your emotions all the time and fly off the handle for something ambiguous someone said, regardless of the individual's reputation. Instead of acting on your emotions, take a step back... and think about what your doing and how it might be perceived. The infraction given here was not okay to give out, especially since Kitsu flew off the handle, as he has done several times since I've begun lurking this board again.
Now, you're free to see the situation as you will, but it is something everyone responding to this should think about.
I understand how frustrating the job of both mods and admin is. I was a mod myself at another site back in the day. You guys are human, and you guys get frustrated with certain characters that exist in the community. However, what isn't okay is to act on your emotions all the time and fly off the handle for something ambiguous someone said, regardless of the individual's reputation. Instead of acting on your emotions, take a step back... and think about what your doing and how it might be perceived. The infraction given here was not okay to give out, especially since Kitsu flew off the handle, as he has done several times since I've begun lurking this board again.
Now, you're free to see the situation as you will, but it is something everyone responding to this should think about.
Mellow Ezlo
Spoony Bard
I really don't want to get involved in this argument, but I have one thing to say.
I do not believe the infraction was totally necessary, an official warning would certainly suffice; however, I also read DM's posts with a sexual tone, just like Kitsu did, and so I can understand where he's coming from. The type of sarcasm that DM presented in the SB is extremely hard to detect in text, but it was certainly there. Somebody like me, who is very familiar with that exact type of textual sarcasm, can more easily detect it and tell whether or not the comments DM made were actually sexual or not. Reading through that conversation again, all I saw was sexual comments from him. And that "Oh, I think you mean sexuality" thing that he did... give me a break. What Kitsu was quoting in response to DM had absolutely nothing to do with sexuality. It was a blatant sexual comment, end of story, the sexuality thing makes zero sense at all. I honestly fail to see how what DM did wasn't baiting.
That's all I want to say on the matter. I agree with Kitsu's reasoning for infracting DM, but I don't agree with the infraction itself. However, it's forgivable since, as many have said before me, proper communication is difficult at such late hours and so Kitsu took matters into his own hands. The infraction should be reversed, end of story. Is the amount of arguing that's been going on really necessary?
I do not believe the infraction was totally necessary, an official warning would certainly suffice; however, I also read DM's posts with a sexual tone, just like Kitsu did, and so I can understand where he's coming from. The type of sarcasm that DM presented in the SB is extremely hard to detect in text, but it was certainly there. Somebody like me, who is very familiar with that exact type of textual sarcasm, can more easily detect it and tell whether or not the comments DM made were actually sexual or not. Reading through that conversation again, all I saw was sexual comments from him. And that "Oh, I think you mean sexuality" thing that he did... give me a break. What Kitsu was quoting in response to DM had absolutely nothing to do with sexuality. It was a blatant sexual comment, end of story, the sexuality thing makes zero sense at all. I honestly fail to see how what DM did wasn't baiting.
That's all I want to say on the matter. I agree with Kitsu's reasoning for infracting DM, but I don't agree with the infraction itself. However, it's forgivable since, as many have said before me, proper communication is difficult at such late hours and so Kitsu took matters into his own hands. The infraction should be reversed, end of story. Is the amount of arguing that's been going on really necessary?
Whether Kitsu went to far is debatable, but he is coming from the right place. There are certain members here who are bent on his destruction as admin because he disagrees with some of the long standing issues on the site. Kitsu is one of the best admins we have had in some time, he actually actively works to better the forum after years of Admins who were mostly absent and couldn't care less. He has stuck on this forum for years and wouldn't be here if he didn't give a damn. Some of his temper might just be that he is tired of how crap was on here for so long, I know I was and I feel it has improved. Admittedly I was apprehensive about Rep at first but he and Kitsu have done a great job on the forum and were a much needed shot in the arm for ZD.
His worth as an admin doesn't erase his actions here. You never should use someone's value in a position to justify or ignore acting like he has in it. He's been verbally abusive for weeks and this infraction is entirely unjustified. Being knowledgeable in tech doesn't justify acting like he does. This is not the first case in which he has attacked someone, just the first time he decided to use his powers in response to his anger. It's wrong to just let him off the hook because he knows things or has fixed a few long standing issues. At the very least he should be barred from any kind of moderating since he can't control his anger. He was supposed to be just a tech admin in the first place. Someone in such a position of power should not be conducting themselves like this acting out in anger like he did.
Jamie
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Despite anything, as I said to Matt earlier in Skype, I will vouch for Kitsu as much as possible. Kitsu is extremely intelligent and knows things that I do not. He is the reason the forum was updated, good layouts are coming in, the exploit was fixed, etc. We compliment each other extremely well. With 7 years of programming experience almost entirely focused on PHP, I am often able to fix errors that were overlooked by him, but he is able to see things I would never notice. Kitsu is, in my opinion, an almost irreplaceable member of the staff team, moreso than ANY of the forum staff, including myself. I absolutely believe Kitsu should keep his position with all of the same permissions he currently has, and as I've had the most direct experience working with him side by side, I can attest that he is the single most diligent and hard working person on this site when it pertains to bettering the site. A single poor judgment call should have nothing to do with his position as possibly to this date the site's best Administrator.
CynicalSquid
Swag Master General
I think the main problem I have here is that (I believe) Admins were split into Moderation and Tech, yet Kitsu, a Tech Admin, was moderating. I don't have anything against Kitsu being a Tech Admin or anything, because he has done a lot of good work for the site. It's just that I can't understand why would you split the rank when Tech Admins are acting as Moderators. It makes the split really redundant. He shouldn't be demoted or anything because of his anger. He just shouldn't be able to hand out infractions and such because he's not a Moderator. That's what I think about the matter.
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