General Zelda Instead of Giving Hints to Puzzles, the Puzzle Should Have Been Removed or Replaced

[Random Person]

Okay, the hints given by the sheikah stones are hardly "playing the game" for you. They're visual hints that show you where you need to go.

They are there for players who get really stuck and don't feel like looking up a walkthrough. Not everyone is as smart as you are. I don't understand why everyone feels so insulted by hints that they can easily ignore.

If you take a look at it from a general perspetcive, perhaps it will become clearer.

Solving puzzles is the challenge of puzzle solving games, which is half of what Zelda is. (A puzzle solving, action/adventure game) The series has often made "figure out where to go" puzzles in themselves. Change solving puzzles to shooting people. Now say you're in a game where it's too hard to shoot someone because you're not good at it. So the game gives you a weapon that aims for you, shoots for you and will definitely kill it's target no matter what. All you have to do is walk. It's the same scenario.

Another thing is how insulting this is to the other players. Imagine if you're playing basketball and you begin losing badly. The opposing team comes to you and says " if you want, we'll stop playing as hard to make it less of a challenge." To beginners, this is a great thing, but that's almost spitting in the face of people who actually play basketball and relish the challenge. You're basically saying they're not competent by even presenting this as an option. It's the same scenario.

If someone needs an extremely revealing hint, an auto aiming/shooting/killing gun, or a team that won't put up a fight, that's a sign the person shouldn't be playing that game in the first place or the game should have an "beginner's mode" where these options are available.

 

[Cfrock]

Now say you're in a game where it's too hard to shoot someone because you're not good at it. So the game gives you a weapon that aims for you, shoots for you and will definitely kill it's target no matter what. All you have to do is walk. It's the same scenario.

But it's not the same. If the shooter gives you the gun, if it makes you use it, then sure, but Zelda doesn't make you use Sheikah Stones. Not once. Not even when they are introduced. Nobody even mentions them to you once they have been initially pointed out (and Fi reminds you of everything else). The game can be played without ever thinking about them. If you get stuck on a puzzle, the game doesn't give you a hint to get you past it, it leaves you to figure out what to do. It's not the same scenario at all.

Another thing is how insulting this is to the other players... To beginners, this is a great thing, but that's almost spitting in the face of people who actually play basketball and relish the challenge. You're basically saying they're not competent by even presenting this as an option. It's the same scenario.

But it's not the same. The existence of the Sheikah Stones is in no way a comment on the skill of players. They are nothing more than one extra resource for those that need it. If the game insisted you use the Sheikah Stones (the way Skyward Sword pushes the use of dowsing) then maybe you would have a point, but they never do, not once. The puzzles are not designed any differently to accomodate the Stones, and so avoiding their use leaves you with the same experience you would have had even if they never existed. There is no condescension involved in this; Nintendo are merely being mindful that a certain portion of its audience might struggle, and so they have included an in-game hint sytem that is entirely non-intrusive and mostly ignored by the game itself, for the benefit of those who do not want to use it. The secluded nature of the Stones' locations, their incredibly brief explanations, and the fact that they are never mentioned by any characters (not even Fi) at all after being introduced are all evidence that Nintendo are actively trying to avoid giving the impression that they expect you to use them. The implementation of the Stones shows clearly that skilled players are not being insulted. It's not the same scenario at all.

A related point I want to make is why are Sheikah Stones such an insult when Ocarina of Time gives you a special stone that automatically reveals the location of Gold Skulltulas? You can't opt-out of the Stone/Shard of Agony once you get it and it buzzes everytime you are near an otherwise hidden secret. That makes the game easier by giving you the direct answer of where things are hidden and you can't stop it. That really is the game assuming you aren't competent enough to find them on your own and leading you right to them to make up for your own skill. Or so it could reasonably be argued. If the optional Sheikah Stones are an insult, then the semi-forced Stone/Shard of Agony is a slap to the face and a shove in the dirt by comparison.

If someone needs an extremely revealing hint, an auto aiming/shooting/killing gun, or a team that won't put up a fight, that's a sign the person shouldn't be playing that game in the first place or the game should have an "beginner's mode" where these options are available.

You're assuming a player who chooses to seek a hint from a Sheikah Stone will rely on them for the duration of the game. A player might use the Stones for one puzzle only. This is hardly an 'automatic win' device. The player might be great at the entire game apart from one specific puzzle that just stumps them for whatever reason. The use of an occasional hint doesn't mean a person "shouldn't be playing that game" at all, it just means they got stuck on a particular puzzle. It happens to us all. We have all used guides at some point.

And I don't see how the option to use a Sheikah Stone for a hint is any different from the option of using a "beginner's mode" to make the game easier. At the end of the day, the developers are providing an opportunity to remove some of the challenge from the game. That is the same scenario. So what's the difference? In one case, you are opting to play the game with the ability to make specific, individual points of it easier. In the other, you're making the whole thing easier in general terms. (I understand that you suggest the "beginner's mode" being different only by providing the Stones and leaving them out of the "normal mode", but that is utterly redundant since they would still only be optional and have the same effect on "begginer's mode" as they currently do on "normal mode".)

I know that this won't make a difference but the fact that Sheikah Stones are entirely optional and non-intrusive makes any complaints about them redundant. If you don't like them, don't use them. It's not like dowsing, which is thrust into your face numerous times, which is explained even if you tell Fi not to tell you, which is automatically activated at various points and must be manually turned off. The Sheikah Stones get a quick, two sentence introduction to explain what they do, and then you are left to get on with your adventure without ever needing to think about them ever again as long as you live. And they are tucked away in seldom visited little corners where you won't even need to look at them. Their existence hasn't affected game design in Zelda at all, and they really may as well not exist as far as most people's experience goes. They are not a problem. If you don't like them, don't use them.

 

[Vaati101]

The thing about the Sheikah Stones is that the visions appear once the player reaches a certain point in the game or has attempted a puzzle resulting in failure. They aren't available from the start, you have to put in some leg work in order to unlock them and by the time that happens, you've probably figured the puzzle out. For someone who has only turned 12, picked up a copy of Ocarina of Time 3D and has never played it or the original for example, there's nothing damaging about giving that person a push in the right direction, it's not as if he will rely on the Sheikah Stone all the time because the Sheikah Stone prevents this by only viewing up to the point where you are currently at in the game.

Sure the Visions are pretty obvious but no one is gonna stop in the heart of a Dungeon/Temple, leave and consult a Sheikah Stone just to find out what to do next, What's the point? That would be a waste of effort. The most plausible way that would happen would be if the player rage quits due to dying or whatever and consults the sheikah stone afterwards, or maybe that he starts the game again after taking a long break and simply forgot where he left off, but it would only view up to the point he got when he was last in the dungeon.

This whole argument would be valid if all of the visions were unlocked when you play the game for the very first time, but that's not the case here. While Nintendo do give players obvious hints to certain puzzles, they do encourage people to at least attempt that puzzle first before unlocking that particular vision.

Edit: After thinking about what the OP said, when you put it in that context, Ocarina of Time 3D's Master Quest kinds fulfills your wish there. As well as completely changing the puzzles in the Dungeons, the Sheikah Stones are absent, meaning you you have to figure out the puzzles yourself, however that is expected for the higher difficulty.

 

[Random Person]

But it's not the same. If the shooter gives you the gun, if it makes you use it, then sure, but Zelda doesn't make you use Sheikah Stones. Not once. Not even when they are introduced. Nobody even mentions them to you once they have been initially pointed out (and Fi reminds you of everything else). The game can be played without ever thinking about them. If you get stuck on a puzzle, the game doesn't give you a hint to get you past it, it leaves you to figure out what to do. It's not the same scenario at all.

I already stated in this and the other post that whether it's optional or not, it's still counter productive. I didn't think I had to say it one more time here. And as far as the bold comment goes, this conversation somehow got shifted to Gossip Stones, but SS does indeed tell you what to do on multiple occasions whether you want it to or not. Fi is a giant example of forced upon hints.

But it's not the same. The existence of the Sheikah Stones is in no way a comment on the skill of players. They are nothing more than one extra resource for those that need it. If the game insisted you use the Sheikah Stones (the way Skyward Sword pushes the use of dowsing) then maybe you would have a point, but they never do, not once. The puzzles are not designed any differently to accomodate the Stones, and so avoiding their use leaves you with the same experience you would have had even if they never existed. There is no condescension involved in this; Nintendo are merely being mindful that a certain portion of its audience might struggle, and so they have included an in-game hint sytem that is entirely non-intrusive and mostly ignored by the game itself, for the benefit of those who do not want to use it. The secluded nature of the Stones' locations, their incredibly brief explanations, and the fact that they are never mentioned by any characters (not even Fi) at all after being introduced are all evidence that Nintendo are actively trying to avoid giving the impression that they expect you to use them. The implementation of the Stones shows clearly that skilled players are not being insulted. It's not the same scenario at all.

I can't help but feel my entire point was ignored here. I said that by even offering this it is an insult. An extra resource or not, there are veteran Zelda players who pride themselves on getting through a game where not only did they not seek help, help was not available. By putting something like the Gossip Stones, you have diminished the value of winning for the sake of making everyone feeling like a winner. Perhaps you aren't insulted, but there are many that were and its for good reason. The Gossip Stones themselves did not insult me in particular, but, like I said, this conversation somehow got shifted to talking about them.

You're assuming a player who chooses to seek a hint from a Sheikah Stone will rely on them for the duration of the game. A player might use the Stones for one puzzle only. This is hardly an 'automatic win' device. The player might be great at the entire game apart from one specific puzzle that just stumps them for whatever reason. The use of an occasional hint doesn't mean a person "shouldn't be playing that game" at all, it just means they got stuck on a particular puzzle. It happens to us all. We have all used guides at some point.

And I don't see how the option to use a Sheikah Stone for a hint is any different from the option of using a "beginner's mode" to make the game easier. At the end of the day, the developers are providing an opportunity to remove some of the challenge from the game. That is the same scenario. So what's the difference? In one case, you are opting to play the game with the ability to make specific, individual points of it easier. In the other, you're making the whole thing easier in general terms. (I understand that you suggest the "beginner's mode" being different only by providing the Stones and leaving them out of the "normal mode", but that is utterly redundant since they would still only be optional and have the same effect on "begginer's mode" as they currently do on "normal mode".)

I know that this won't make a difference but the fact that Sheikah Stones are entirely optional and non-intrusive makes any complaints about them redundant. If you don't like them, don't use them. It's not like dowsing, which is thrust into your face numerous times, which is explained even if you tell Fi not to tell you, which is automatically activated at various points and must be manually turned off. The Sheikah Stones get a quick, two sentence introduction to explain what they do, and then you are left to get on with your adventure without ever needing to think about them ever again as long as you live. And they are tucked away in seldom visited little corners where you won't even need to look at them. Their existence hasn't affected game design in Zelda at all, and they really may as well not exist as far as most people's experience goes. They are not a problem. If you don't like them, don't use them.

Whether one need an obvious hint for just one moment or the entire game is irrelevant to my point, which was... one needing an obvious handicap is a sign that the game is not for them. It doesn't automatically mean that, its just a sign. If there is one moment that is just too hard, had help not been available, then in hindsight, you wouldn't have beaten the game anyway.

The reason a beginner mode is different is because it is segmenting. Beginner's specifically have to go there. Again, this comes to the value of winning. Saying "I beat such and such on hard mode" has more value than saying "I beat the game" which has more value than saying "I beat the game on beginner's mode." The reason there is a hard mode is for people who need a bigger challenge. The reason for beginner modes is because there are people who need less of a challenge. Lumping the categories together is not the solution because, optional or not, you've made it easier for everyone.

And once again, this conversation was not meant to be mainly about gossip stones, it was about hints that are too revealing. I actually don't mind Gossip Stones as they did a decent job of making themselves optional, but when looking at it from as unbiased as I can, I must side with those who found them a hindrance because optional or not, they are diminishing the value of winning a game.

 

[JuicieJ]

I already stated in this and the other post that whether it's optional or not, it's still counter productive. I didn't think I had to say it one more time here. And as far as the bold comment goes, this conversation somehow got shifted to Gossip Stones, but SS does indeed tell you what to do on multiple occasions whether you want it to or not. Fi is a giant example of forced upon hints.

Except Fi never spells anything important out for you. She just pops out and says obvious things that don't pertain to any of the actual challenges, so obvious unimportant things are obvious.

I can't help but feel my entire point was ignored here. I said that by even offering this it is an insult. An extra resource or not, there are veteran Zelda players who pride themselves on getting through a game where not only did they not seek help, help was not available. By putting something like the Gossip Stones, you have diminished the value of winning for the sake of making everyone feeling like a winner. Perhaps you aren't insulted, but there are many that were and its for good reason. The Gossip Stones themselves did not insult me in particular, but, like I said, this conversation somehow got shifted to talking about them.

So let me get this straight. Because there's a source of help in existence that you do not have to use, you feel insulted by it? I take it that you're insulted by official walkthroughs, as well?

The reason a beginner mode is different is because it is segmenting. Beginner's specifically have to go there.

Um... no they don't. Like, at all. It's merely recommended that they go there. Funny thing is, with the Shiekah Stones, they're not even recommend. They're just there.

The reason a beginner mode is different is because it is segmenting. Beginner's specifically have to go there. Again, this comes to the value of winning. Saying "I beat such and such on hard mode" has more value than saying "I beat the game" which has more value than saying "I beat the game on beginner's mode." The reason there is a hard mode is for people who need a bigger challenge. The reason for beginner modes is because there are people who need less of a challenge. Lumping the categories together.

This is exactly the same logic that applies to the Shiekah Stones. "I beat the game without using the Shiekah Stones." The reason they're even there is because there are people who wouldn't have been able to figure out some of the puzzles on their own, i.e. needing less of a challenge.

And once again, this conversation was not meant to be mainly about gossip stones, it was about hints that are too revealing. I actually don't mind Gossip Stones as they did a decent job of making themselves optional, but when looking at it from as unbiased as I can, I must side with those who found them a hindrance because optional or not, they are diminishing the value of winning a game.

You just contradicted yourself. The Shiekah Stones are every bit as optional as the Gossip Stones, no questions asked. You're holding a double standard, and I'm convinced it's due to a heavy bias at this point. No way you'd contradict yourself that hardcore without viewing the situation through biased eyes.

 

[Ocarina_Player]

How on earth does it devalue a game if you never use it? I don't understand how the mere existence of an optional hint that stays completely out of the way somehow cheapens the game.

 

[Random Person]

How on earth does it devalue a game if you never use it? I don't understand how the mere existence of an optional hint that stays completely out of the way somehow cheapens the game.

As I said, apply it outside Zelda and its easier to see. Asking a basketball player does he need a handicap is insulting whether he/she uses it or not.

 

[JuicieJ]

As I said, apply it outside Zelda and its easier to see. Asking a basketball player does he need a handicap is insulting whether he/she uses it or not.

So you're just going to ignore everything I had to say proving you wrong on this?

 

[Ocarina_Player]

As I said, apply it outside Zelda and its easier to see. Asking a basketball player does he need a handicap is insulting whether he/she uses it or not.

I don't understand. How? What does anything outside of Zelda has to do with optional hints that you concede can be easily ignored?

 

[Random Person]

I don't understand. How? What does anything outside of Zelda has to do with optional hints that you concede can be easily ignored?

A Person who is really good at a challenge they've been doing for a long time feels insulted when asked "Do you need a handicap?".

I'm not sure I can explain it any further than that. Try looking at something you're really good at and maybe it'll click. If not... oh well.

 

[Cfrock]

An extra resource or not, there are veteran Zelda players who pride themselves on getting through a game where not only did they not seek help, help was not available. By putting something like the Gossip Stones, you have diminished the value of winning for the sake of making everyone feeling like a winner.

... optional or not, you've made it easier for everyone.

I must side with those who found them a hindrance because optional or not, they are diminishing the value of winning a game.

Asking a basketball player does he need a handicap is insulting whether he/she uses it or not.

I understand what you're saying a lot more now; there is less satisfaction in winning a game with an in-built hint system than in winning a game without one. I can see what you're getting at with that. But it still boils down to the fact that Sheikah Stones are optional and, crucially, non-intrusive. No complaints about them survives that fact.

The first quoted point is assuming that people will use the Sheikah Stones as soon as they get stuck simply because they are there. Most players will avoid them entirely. Only the very young, or those who have very little patience, will use them to advance through the game. The existence of the Stones isn't helping everyone win, only those who choose to make use of them. If you ignore them entirely, they never help you. And as Vaati101 pointed out, the Stones only offer advice on puzzles you have already encoutered, meaning anyone who is intent on finishing the game alone will have solved a given problem before help for it is even available, meaning their is no less pride invovled.

The second quoted point just doesn't make sense for the same reason. The Stones make the game easier only by offering hints to those who ask. If you never ask, you never get a hint, therefore the Stones never make the game easier for you. They only make the game easier for those who actually use them. It is just not possible for them to make it easier for those who don't.

The third point is the only one I can sort of understand, but it still doesn't really make any sense. Finishing the game without using the Stones is just as meaningful as finishing it if they didn't exist. Just because the Stones exist, it doesn't mean you have achieved less even if you don't use them. Resident Evil 3 has infinite ammo weapons, but they only make the game a breeze if you actually choose to use them. Donkey Kong Country Returns has a Super Ape which completes levels for you, but the game only plays itself if you actually choose to use it. The value of winning the game only diminishes if you actually make use of the 'automatic win' function. It doesn't affect the game unless you tell it to, therefore it doesn't diminish victory if you never use it.

The fourth quote is, I feel, a misrepresentation of how the Sheikah Stones work. I get what you're saying; that by making them available the developers seem to imply that everyone will need them. But that's just not the case and that is evidenced by the way the Stones are implemented, which I mentioned in an earlier post (secluded locations, brief introduction, no demonstration, never mentioned). If, after two hours of running around a dungeon with no progress, Fi popped out and said, "Master, I detect an 85% chance that you do not know what to do next. I suggest returning to Skyloft and consulting with the Sheikah Stone," then yes, you would have a point. But she doesn't. Navi doesn't pop out in Ocarina of Time 3D and say, "Link! Don't forget the Sheikah Stone if you need some help." If the developers were implying that everyone would need the Stones (asking if the player needed a handicap) then the Stones would have been mentioned more often and brought to your attention more than not at all. The games never once expect you to use them, which makes a massive difference to their intention.

 

[Vaati101]

A Person who is really good at a challenge they've been doing for a long time feels insulted when asked "Do you need a handicap?".

This only ever happens in a Zelda game if you actually interact with the Sheikah Stone seeking for help, It never distracts you from the game asking you for a hint except for Skyward Sword, but all it does is makes you aware that it will help you if you need it. The game never asks you for a hint unless you ask for it, otherwise you can completely void yourself from it, in Ocarina of Time 3D you don't even have to look at the Sheikah Stone. Obviously a Veteran player won't feel the need to use the sheikah Stones for help, but it's not forced on them. All the game does is make you aware of it, whether you choose to use it or not is your choice.

 

[Ocarina_Player]

A Person who is really good at a challenge they've been doing for a long time feels insulted when asked "Do you need a handicap?".

I'm not sure I can explain it any further than that. Try looking at something you're really good at and maybe it'll click. If not... oh well.

Ugh, they are not there for YOU. Nobody is asking YOU if you need a handicap! Why do you think they are there specifically for you? They are there for anyone who wants to use them, nobody expects anyone who knows what they're doing or looking for a challenge to use them! I know they weren't for me, I played the game so many times I can do the Shadow Temple without the Lens of Truth. I know they're for my kid cousins who are used to easy platform games.

 

[Salem]

Guys? Whether or not it is insulting that sheikah stones and hint system exists has nothing to do with my main point, it's not even "if you don't like it, don't use it".

 

[Cfrock]

Guys? Whether or not it is insulting that sheikah stones and hint system exists has nothing to do with my main point, it's not even "if you don't like it, don't use it".

I apologise for my role in distracting the thread. Let's get to the main point, then.

If the topic is what to replace a pointless puzzle with, the answer of combat came up, but I have been thinking about it a little. Could the puzzle be replaced by another puzzle? Maybe not in every case of replacement, sure, but in some to ward off the spectre of repetition. For example, let's go back to that fan puzzle in Twilight Princess that I love/hate so much. The puzzle as it is involves turning four fans in a specific order to open a gate. The order is indicated by an obvious pattern on the floor, which I think makes the puzzle too easy. Rather than remove it or put a tough enemy in front of the gate, what about changing it to a different type of puzzle?

The Forest Temple has vines everywhere and Link swings on them throughout. What if the fans were replaced by a pulley system that uses vines, and the player must manage the weight on either side to pull the gate open, either by grabbing it themselves or arranging the dungeon's monkey on them? That would require the player to think more about how to open the gate, but also wouldn't require any blatant hint, just a quick indication that weight on the vines affects the gate.

Of course, changing the puzzles leaves you in the position of having to manage a new hint, but an example like the one above would seem to deftly avoid making such a hint too obvious, merely indicating the nature of the puzzle and leaving you to solve it in peace. For puzzles which couldn't be replaced so easily by a different one, then the option of combat still remains.